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Re: [WarOf1812] Re: Pte Pierpont

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  • craig w
    Peter, Understood. It s just that I thought that you were also making a point that this graveyard was an anomaly and I wanted to offer that it was a way of
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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      Peter,

      Understood. It's just that I thought that you were also making a point
      that this graveyard was an anomaly and I wanted to offer that it was a
      way of life in the 19th century.
      And yes it's frustrating when an author doesn't include the conclusion
      or even state if that conclusion is lost to time.

      Craig

      >
      > Kevin and Craig
      >
      > My point was - if the anonymous body was captain Dick - that the
      > cemetery in question would have been full of dead white Presbyterians.
      > We have a black cemetery up here too, but if Watson wanted Pierpont
      > buried in Fergus churchyard and the elders said "No" it could have
      > either because he was non-white or because he was non-Christian.
      > Don't forget that black cemeteries often grew up because even dead
      > they weren't welcome!
      >
      > Frustratingly, the author doesn't say how the dispute was resolved and
      > doesn't even sure where Capt dick was buried at all.
    • lalozon
      From: Kevin Windsor Don t think it was race Peter. Here on the border there are a number of Black people (contempories of
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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        From: "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>

        Don't think it was race Peter. Here on the border there are a number of
        Black people (contempories of Pierpointe) buried in regular cemeteries with
        everyone else. I know of one black cemetery in a place called Burgessville
        (near Stratford Ontario).
        ...................





        Kevin et al,



        Racism in Canada was a strange thing ... we were supposed to be a
        "Free" state/province ... Dresden was the end of the Underground Railroad
        .... many of African decent lived in that area ... the town of Dresden
        passed a law that

        "Negroes were not allowed to walk the streets after sunset"

        ...... a black man was hung on the bridge in the middle of town for breaking
        this law in the mid 1800s.


        Mary Ann Shad was the first woman in North America to publish a
        newspaper ... being a Negro and a woman gave her many hardships in Canada.


        Elijah McCoy ... Colchester, Ont. invented the McCoy Lubricator ... (the
        real McCoy) ... and awarded 50 more patents ... but only after many
        hardships due to his race.


        There are black settlements near Chatham, one being 'North Buxton' and only
        blacks were buried in their cemetery until 1945.


        Religion or Race ...... or even being a Woman ...... that is hard to call

        =========

        From: "Peter Monahan" <petemonahan@...>

        "This is my last will and testament in the name of God Amen".


        Are these the words of a Christian, merely a linguistic convention by
        Pierpont or his scribe or perhaps an echo of the standard Arabic
        exhortations to and acknowledgements of Allah which are so common in Muslim
        conversation and correspondence?



        Muslims teach that their GOD is named "Allah" as Christians use
        "Jehovah" and "Yahweh".
        But at the end 'Allah' is their GOD.


        Possibly Mr. Hobbs, with his Theological training could help here ...... Sir
        ?!

        .............

        I would imagine that his Last Will and Testament, being a legal document
        would have to follow standards in it's content......


        Possibly the Barristers Solicitors and Lawyers on this group could help us
        out with this one ........ Councillors ......?!



        Yes Sir agreed, a fascinating thread

        ==========


        From: "R.W. Fuller <fullerfamily@...>



        I'll be more impressed when somebody recreates the West India Regiments!




        Yur Grace,

        Are there ... were there ... not a few doing this impression at New
        Orleans?

        Maj. B.,

        Was there not a West India Regiment soldier who marched with us when
        you marched us across the Chalmette Battlefield where you did the Memorial
        Service?



        Yrs.,

        L2
      • Peter Monahan
        Your Grace Don t get me started on racism in Canada! About the same time the police chief in Birmingham, Alabama was setting his attack dogs on blacks, the
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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          Your Grace

          Don't get me started on racism in Canada!
          About the same time the police chief in Birmingham, Alabama was setting his attack dogs on blacks, the black crossing guard in my home town in Nova Scotia saved up enough to buy a house in town. But, despite 20 years service, Christmas cards from kids, etc etc, no one would sell to him and when my parents did they got threatening and obscene phone calls!

          I'm aware that Muslims call God "Allah" but I'm thinking of the very common practice by my African Muslim students many years ago of both beginning and ending letters with references to "God" when writing in English. If translated mentally into English by an unlettered man the Arabic phrase, which escapes me now< might well sound like what Pierpont said in his will. Flogged enough, I think.

          Peter M
          ============================================================
        • ray hobbs
          List: This thread does raise the interesting topic of black soldiers in the British Army during the Napoleonic period - and I am not simply thinking of the
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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            List:
            This thread does raise the interesting topic of black soldiers in the
            British Army during the Napoleonic period - and I am not simply
            thinking of the West Indian regiments.
            I know of one dissertation on black military musicians of the period,
            and I have also read that some regiments, e.g. the 104th, had black
            pioneers. But, this looks similar to the role as "hewers of wood and
            drawers of water" which many linked to a stereotype of the black.

            Slavery was still common in Canada, although trade in slaves had been
            abolished. Joseph Brant had a slave woman, Sarah Pooley, who he sold to
            Samuel Hatt of the Lincolns in ca. 1806. This was not uncommon. Many
            churches were segregated during this period. This is certainly true of
            the churches which grew up on the border with the US. Even today the
            "Amherstburg Baptist Association" is black, through no fault of the
            modern whites. They simply prefer to remain separate to preserve their
            history.
            Also many of the earliest Baptist Churches along the Niagara Peninsula
            to York were black churches, founded in our period.

            There is a fascinating "Negro burial ground" in Niagara on the Lake. It
            is actually the remains of a small Baptist church of blacks who had
            come to the area in the 1790s and early 1800s. It is interesting
            because after the War of 1812, when the church was foundering, Sergeant
            John Oakley, of the Royal Wagon Train, a Baptist soldier from Britain
            agreed to become their pastor. He stayed there for many years. He was
            white.

            To my knowledge there has not been an exhaustive treatment done of the
            role of black soldiers in the period we recreate. It is long overdue.

            Ray Hobbs
            41st Regt.



            On Wednesday, February 2, 2005, at 11:01 AM, craig w wrote:

            > Peter,
            >
            > Understood. It's just that I thought that you� were also making a point
            > that this graveyard was an anomaly and I wanted to offer� that it was a
            > way of life in the 19th century.
            > And yes it's frustrating when an author doesn't include the conclusion
            > or even state if that conclusion is lost to time.
            >
            > Craig
            >
            > >
            > > Kevin and Craig
            > >
            > > My point was - if the anonymous body was captain Dick - that the
            > > cemetery in question would have been full of dead white
            > Presbyterians.
            > >� We have a black cemetery up here too, but if Watson wanted Pierpont
            > > buried in Fergus churchyard and the elders said "No" it could have
            > > either because he was non-white or because he was non-Christian.�
            > > Don't forget that black cemeteries often grew up because even dead
            > > they weren't welcome!
            > >
            > > Frustratingly, the author doesn't say how the dispute was resolved
            > and
            > > doesn't even sure where Capt dick was buried at all.
            >
            >
            >
            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
            > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
            > THOUSANDS of square miles...
            >
            > Unit Contact information for North America:
            > �� ---------------------------------
            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
            >
            > American Forces Unit Lisiting
            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
            >
            >
            <image.tiff>
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > � To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
            > �
            > � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > �
            > � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • lalozon
            From: Peter Monahan Your Grace L2: There is only one person in North America who has earned the title Yur (Your) Grace that
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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              From: "Peter Monahan" <petemonahan@...>

              Your Grace


              L2: There is only one person in North America who has earned the title 'Yur
              (Your) Grace' that being, General
              Tim Pickles, O/C the Crown Forces North America ... the reason is because he
              has played the Man, the Duke of Wellington many times at re-enactments in
              Europe.

              If you are addressing him with this email I bow to his wisdom and apologise
              to you et al for answering same.

              I do however notice my content in this post so shall answer same.

              :::::::::::::::


              PM: Don't get me started on racism in Canada!


              L2: I was raised in the Black section of Chatham, Ontario ..... my father
              owned a grocery store in this section of town for over 15 years and I am
              aware of racism in Canada as in the rest of North America.

              :::::::::::::::

              PM: I'm aware that Muslims call God "Allah" but I'm thinking of the very
              common practice by my African Muslim students many years ago of both
              beginning and ending letters with references to "God" when writing in
              English. If translated mentally into English by an unlettered man the
              Arabic phrase, which escapes me now< might well sound like what Pierpont
              said in his will. Flogged enough, I think.

              L2: As many religions have different names for their GOD ... does it raise
              the question, "which GOD?"


              Agreed ...... Flogged enough


              :::::::::::::

              As I did state the "R" word ... RELIGION


              I found this at Yahoo this morning .....

              _______________

              Is the Bible copyrighted?

              There are no original Biblical copyright holders. The Bible was written by
              roughly 40 or so people over the span of 1,500 years (from around 1450 B.C.
              until A.D. 100). It was written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek.

              Many modern translations of the Bible are copyrighted. While several of
              these Bible copyright holders offer their translations online and allow
              people to make attributed quotes, they would probably frown upon someone
              printing their translation and trying to sell it. Besides, since a Bible
              quote in English is by definition a translation, it's good practice to
              attribute the source.

              As we quickly discovered, copyright law is a complicated affair. Many books
              become public domain 70 years after the author's death. Of course, it goes
              without saying that the Bible isn't your average book, so we suggest you
              check with the publisher. However, the Bible Gateway notes that many
              versions are in the public domain including the King James Bible.
              -----------



              Yrs.,

              L2
            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
              In a message dated 02/02/2005 10:24:47 Central Standard Time, lalozon@netrover.com writes: Mary Ann Shad was the first woman in North America to publish a
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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                In a message dated 02/02/2005 10:24:47 Central Standard Time,
                lalozon@... writes:


                Mary Ann Shad was the first woman in North America to publish a
                newspaper ... being a Negro and a woman gave her many hardships in Canada.





                Even in these politicaly correct time I think that should be Negress!

                Cheers

                Tim


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kevin Windsor
                I read a great account by Gerry Altoff, about Blacks in the US Army. Anyone want to do a British account. Kevin 89th ... From: ray hobbs
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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                  I read a great account by Gerry Altoff, about Blacks in the US Army. Anyone
                  want to do a British account.

                  Kevin
                  89th

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>


                  To my knowledge there has not been an exhaustive treatment done of the
                  role of black soldiers in the period we recreate. It is long overdue.

                  Ray Hobbs
                  41st Regt.
                • ray hobbs
                  Kevin et al. Contact the history department at your local university - Kevin, Brock U is where Wesley Turner taught. Then suggest to the Prof. of Canadian
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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                    Kevin et al.
                    Contact the history department at your local university - Kevin, Brock
                    U is where Wesley Turner taught. Then suggest to the Prof. of Canadian
                    history this topic. A graduate student can be persuaded to work at it.
                    They are always looking for unchartered waters to traverse.
                    There is also a pile of unread documentation lying around in all sorts
                    of archives and libraries.

                    Which reminds me - On Friday I am off to spend a full week in the
                    National Archives/Library in Ottawa - ah bliss!

                    Ray H
                    41st Regt



                    On Wednesday, February 2, 2005, at 06:12 PM, Kevin Windsor wrote:

                    >
                    > I read a great account by Gerry Altoff, about Blacks in the US Army.
                    > Anyone
                    > want to do a British account.
                    >
                    > Kevin
                    > 89th
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@...>
                    >
                    >
                    > To my knowledge there has not been an exhaustive treatment done of the
                    > role of black soldiers in the period we recreate. It is long overdue.
                    >
                    > Ray Hobbs
                    > 41st Regt.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                    > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                    > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                    >
                    > Unit Contact information for North America:
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                    > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                    >
                    > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                    > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • hm95thfoot
                    Even though it s a great topic of interest to us all here, having been through grad school in the liberal arts, and knowing some who are going through it right
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 2, 2005
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                      Even though it's a great topic of interest to us all here, having
                      been through grad school in the liberal arts, and knowing some who
                      are going through it right now, for various reasons, military topics
                      on a dissertation are not a hot way to get a career in academia
                      going. That is, unless it's something unusually catchy that attracts
                      dept. heads in various universities, or the candidate has published
                      elsewhere in the field, therefore being already known in his/her
                      area. The ability to get published, and in an area that is in demand
                      is key toward landing a decent tenured position in areas such as
                      history, ethnography, sociology and political science. That's just
                      they way it is right now.

                      For a museum position, that might be different, but that was not my
                      specialty.

                      For now, when it comes to learning about Africans in the British
                      Army in this period, Roger Norman Buckley's "Slaves in Redcoats: The
                      British West Indian Regiments 1795-1815" (Yale University Press,
                      1979) is still the best. Out of print, it's available through
                      Interlibrary Loan, or the Canadian equivalent.

                      BTDT,
                      RWF

                      --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, ray hobbs <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
                      > Kevin et al.
                      > Contact the history department at your local university - Kevin,
                      Brock
                      > U is where Wesley Turner taught. Then suggest to the Prof. of
                      Canadian
                      > history this topic. A graduate student can be persuaded to work at
                      it.
                      > They are always looking for unchartered waters to traverse.
                      > There is also a pile of unread documentation lying around in all
                      sorts
                      > of archives and libraries.
                      >
                      > Which reminds me - On Friday I am off to spend a full week in the
                      > National Archives/Library in Ottawa - ah bliss!
                      >
                      > Ray H
                      > 41st Regt
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On Wednesday, February 2, 2005, at 06:12 PM, Kevin Windsor wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > I read a great account by Gerry Altoff, about Blacks in the US
                      Army.
                      > > Anyone
                      > > want to do a British account.
                      > >
                      > > Kevin
                      > > 89th
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@s...>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To my knowledge there has not been an exhaustive treatment done
                      of the
                      > > role of black soldiers in the period we recreate. It is long
                      overdue.
                      > >
                      > > Ray Hobbs
                      > > 41st Regt.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                      hundreds
                      > > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate
                      of
                      > > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                      > >
                      > > Unit Contact information for North America:
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                      > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                      > >
                      > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                      > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                    • Rick Peterson
                      Kevin et al. I was wondering if the re-enactor Ivor from the IMUC has done any research? For those who aren t familiar with him, he is/was a black member of
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 3, 2005
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                        Kevin et al.
                        I was wondering if the re-enactor Ivor from the IMUC has done any
                        research?
                        For those who aren't familiar with him, he is/was a black member of
                        the IMUC, who was an enthusiastic re-enactor. I haven't seen him in
                        over 3 years. Is he still in the hobby? Did he uncover any info in
                        his own research group?

                        Rick P


                        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, ray hobbs <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
                        > Kevin et al.
                        > Contact the history department at your local university - Kevin,
                        Brock
                        > U is where Wesley Turner taught. Then suggest to the Prof. of
                        Canadian
                        > history this topic. A graduate student can be persuaded to work at
                        it.
                        > They are always looking for unchartered waters to traverse.
                        > There is also a pile of unread documentation lying around in all
                        sorts
                        > of archives and libraries.
                        >
                        > Which reminds me - On Friday I am off to spend a full week in the
                        > National Archives/Library in Ottawa - ah bliss!
                        >
                        > Ray H
                        > 41st Regt
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > On Wednesday, February 2, 2005, at 06:12 PM, Kevin Windsor wrote:
                        >
                        > >
                        > > I read a great account by Gerry Altoff, about Blacks in the US
                        Army.
                        > > Anyone
                        > > want to do a British account.
                        > >
                        > > Kevin
                        > > 89th
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "ray hobbs" <ray.hobbs@s...>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To my knowledge there has not been an exhaustive treatment done
                        of the
                        > > role of black soldiers in the period we recreate. It is long
                        overdue.
                        > >
                        > > Ray Hobbs
                        > > 41st Regt.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                        hundreds
                        > > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate
                        of
                        > > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                        > >
                        > > Unit Contact information for North America:
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                        > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                        > >
                        > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                        > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                      • lalozon
                        ... From: Rick Peterson To: Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:12 PM Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Pte
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 3, 2005
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Rick Peterson" <petersons@...>
                          To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:12 PM
                          Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Pte Pierpont


                          Kevin et al.

                          I was wondering if the re-enactor Ivor from the IMUC has done any research?
                          For those who aren't familiar with him, he is/was a black member of the
                          IMUC, who was an enthusiastic re-enactor.
                          I haven't seen him in over 3 years. Is he still in the hobby? Did he uncover
                          any info in his own research group?




                          Rick ,


                          If you are talking about Ivor Christopher.

                          He was a member of the Kings Regiment in the Canadas (8th [Kings] Regt).
                          http://8th_regiment.tripod.com/index.html http://kingsregiment.tripod.com
                          http://kingsregiment.tripod.com/thekingsregiment

                          I don't think he was ever a member of IMUC!? Possibly Mr. Kelly can search
                          the membership records.

                          Ivor's research regarding his impression of Runchey's Company Free Men of
                          Colour was given him by Barry Sandler (retired re-enactor). He did not do
                          very much research himself.

                          There were some people at the Black Heritage Museum in Amhertburg
                          www.blackhistoricalmuseum.com/museum.htm who were interested in doing the
                          impression but Ivor got busy with his work and has quit the hobby and
                          nothing has been done re: Runchey's.

                          In contact with the Kings Regiment in the Canadas (8th [Kings] Regt) I am
                          informed that he is no longer a member.

                          I hope this helps

                          Yrs.,

                          L2

                          ---------------------------------
                        • Rick Peterson
                          Larry, Thanks for the correction. My recollections were that he was a member of the IMUC, but I am now sure that I was mistaken. Either way, it is a shame he
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 4, 2005
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                            Larry,
                            Thanks for the correction. My recollections were that he was a member
                            of the IMUC, but I am now sure that I was mistaken. Either way, it is
                            a shame he is no longer in the hobby - he was a great person.

                            RP


                            > Rick ,
                            >
                            >
                            > If you are talking about Ivor Christopher.
                            >
                            > He was a member of the Kings Regiment in the Canadas (8th [Kings]
                            Regt).
                            > http://8th_regiment.tripod.com/index.html
                            http://kingsregiment.tripod.com
                            > http://kingsregiment.tripod.com/thekingsregiment
                            >
                            > I don't think he was ever a member of IMUC!? Possibly Mr. Kelly can
                            search
                            > the membership records.
                            >
                            > Ivor's research regarding his impression of Runchey's Company Free
                            Men of
                            > Colour was given him by Barry Sandler (retired re-enactor). He did
                            not do
                            > very much research himself.
                            >
                            > There were some people at the Black Heritage Museum in Amhertburg
                            > www.blackhistoricalmuseum.com/museum.htm who were interested in
                            doing the
                            > impression but Ivor got busy with his work and has quit the hobby
                            and
                            > nothing has been done re: Runchey's.
                            >
                            > In contact with the Kings Regiment in the Canadas (8th [Kings]
                            Regt) I am
                            > informed that he is no longer a member.
                            >
                            > I hope this helps
                            >
                            > Yrs.,
                            >
                            > L2
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
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