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prisoners of war - 1813 41st Prisoner List - transcription comments

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  • yawors1@uwindsor.ca
    Going through the long list of Prisoners, I noticed the following, which is of interest primarily to fans of the 41st, I suppose. Jim Yaworsky 41st
    Message 1 of 8 , Dec 31, 1969
      Going through the long list of Prisoners, I noticed the following, which is
      of interest primarily to fans of the 41st, I suppose.

      Jim Yaworsky
      41st


      ==============================

      Bromley, George Pvt England 23 Dark 5'4 l thigh wound-sent to Lexington

      JY: this is the only individual sent to Lexington. Curious minds want to
      know why. Perhaps because his wound was more serious than others listed
      with leg injuries and he could only get treatment there?
      ------
      Kelly, Patrick killed 24 Dec 1813 trying to force the centenial

      JY: I suspect this should read "sentinel" i.e. Patrick Kelly was trying to
      escape. Just where he wanted to go, or thought he could get to, on
      December 24 from a camp deep in Kentucky is the puzzle.
      -----------
      Danford, James England 19 Fair 5'3 waiter to Captain O'Keefe
      Beasley, William England 23 Fair 5'11 to Frankfort
      Mabbot, Henry Pvt England gone to Frankfort as a waiter
      Dark 5'6
      Rose, Joseph Pvt England 30 Dark 5'5 to Frankfort as waiter
      Weaver, Francis Pvt Eng 34 Dark 5'5 to Frankfort as waiter

      JY: all these men were "waiting" on the officers who were kept "imprisoned"
      in Frankfort (actually, free on parole to roam about Frankfort most of the
      time). These men were not deserters.
      -------
      Ripley, Christopher England 25 Dark 5'7 deserted
      Sharpe, Thomas Deserted

      JY: these two are the only men listed as "deserted" on the list. The
      American government made no concerted effort to entice these prisoners to
      desert, because they wanted to keep them to exchange for American prisoners
      in British hands.
      There was a rather nasty dispute going on between the two governments as to
      the status of American prisoners who had been born as British subjects.
      The Americans called them "Americans". The British called them
      "traitors"... The dispute was not settled until well in to 1814, when
      everybody agreed to be nice to each other's men. This was after the
      British stated "traitors" would be tried and executed, the Americans
      responded by manacling twice the number of British prisoners and stating
      they would shoot two for each "Americans" executed, the British threatened
      to execute twice as many Americans as the American Government would
      execute, etc. In other words, a spiralling escalation of mutual threats.
      The practical results for many of the prisoners of war on both sides was
      some very uncomfortable treatment...
      ---------
      Nebriss, Charles crossed out on roster

      JY: a mystery...

      --------
      Huff, Peter Pvt England 49 Dark 5'3 loin injury

      JY: the only guy who is listed as suffering a "loin injury". Let's hope it
      wasn't too serious... ;>)

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • lalozon
      From: Jim Yaworsky Going through the long list of Prisoners, I noticed the following, which is of interest primarily to fans of the
      Message 2 of 8 , Feb 1, 2005
        From: "Jim Yaworsky" <yawors1@...>

        Going through the long list of Prisoners, I noticed the following, which is
        of interest primarily to fans of the 41st, I suppose.
        ==============================

        Kelly, Patrick killed 24 Dec 1813 trying to force the centenial

        JY: ... Patrick Kelly was trying to escape. Just where he wanted to go, or
        thought he could get to, on December 24 from a camp deep in Kentucky is the
        puzzle.



        L2: I have (somewhere) a report of a Kent Militia man who walked from
        Kentucky to his home near Chatham Ontario Canada, in the winter, after
        escaping from a War of 1812 prisoner camp.

        I think Patty Kelly just wanted to get out of the camp.


        =========

        Danford, James England 19 Fair 5'3 waiter to Captain O'Keefe
        Beasley, William England 23 Fair 5'11 to Frankfort
        Mabbot, Henry Pvt England gone to Frankfort as a waiter Dark 5'6
        Rose, Joseph Pvt England 30 Dark 5'5 to Frankfort as waiter
        Weaver, Francis Pvt Eng 34 Dark 5'5 to Frankfort as waiter

        JY: all these men were "waiting" on the officers who were kept "imprisoned"
        in Frankfort (actually, free on parole to roam about Frankfort most of the
        time). These men were not deserters.


        L2: They were smart! ... free to roam as you said and able to eat and drink
        the dregs of the Officer's table!


        =============

        Ripley, Christopher England 25 Dark 5'7 deserted
        Sharpe, Thomas Deserted

        JY: these two are the only men listed as "deserted" on the list.



        L2: reading more from

        THE BRIGADE DISPATCH
        The Journal of the Brigade of the American Revolution
        Vol. XXXIV, No.2 Summer 2004

        "Revolutionary War ... Courts Martial ..... cont.

        British General Court Martial,
        Brooklyn, Long Island, Aug. 12, 1778

        John Conolly, pte. 64th Regt,. Foote
        accused of 'deserting from said Regt.

        Court's Opinion "guilty"
        1st Article of War, 6th Section

        ... to receive 'one thousand lashes on the bare back with Cats of Nine tails
        ...

        Was the punishment in 1812, lashes, confinement, hard labour or death for
        desertion?


        ==============


        "Interesting this research stuff"
        as Mr. Hobbs says, looking over his wine glass ............



        Yrs.,

        L2
      • lalozon
        From: Kevin Windsor Betsy you rock!!!! visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~kycampbe/war1812prisoners.htm ......... Yes Mr. Windsor
        Message 3 of 8 , Feb 1, 2005
          From: "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>

          Betsy you rock!!!!

          visit http://www.rootsweb.com/~kycampbe/war1812prisoners.htm



          .........



          Yes Mr. Windsor she do ........


          I believe Len Heidebrecht also has a list of the height of men
          in the 8th (Kings) Regiment while at Fort York during the War of 1812


          Len .............. ?!?



          Yrs.,

          L2
        • Len Heidebrecht
          ... Yup she do. ... the 8th (Kings) Regiment while at Fort York during the War of 1812 ... Oh, that s my cue! Actually its a listing of the first 124 civilians
          Message 4 of 8 , Feb 1, 2005
            > Betsy you rock!!!!

            Yup she do.

            >I believe Len Heidebrecht also has a list of the height of men in
            the 8th (Kings) Regiment while at Fort York during the War of 1812
            > Len .............. ?!?

            Oh, that's my cue!

            Actually its a listing of the first 124 civilians in the area of the
            town of York UC to take the oaths of Abrigation and Allegience
            conducted from 1800-1806. Average height was Five foot nine and three
            quarters.

            I think you'll find that this sampling of the prisoners of war may be
            skewed slightly as a number of boy drummers were listed ; ages
            10,12,13,15 and 16 (though two drummers were 32 and 34).

            What a fascinating piece of work this is. I thought that I'd list
            some of the bits of trivia that I've picked up so-far:

            Number of captives: 440

            Ages 10 to 58,

            Heights, 4'4" to 6'2"(more on that when I have the time,)

            Ranks:
            Unremarked, 112
            Private, 262
            Cpl, 27
            Sjt, 22
            Drummer, 7
            Gunner, 8
            Craftsman, 1
            Civilian, 1

            Wounded 88

            Jonathan Holliways might have been a driver, commissairy or just
            someone who pissed them off so much they dragged him back as well.

            Craftsman may refer to a pioneer,sapper/miner or one of the
            artificers of the regiment such as the shoemaker or farrier.

            Of the Cpls, Sjts we don't know if any were artillerist. But one
            person I listed as a gunner is remarked as being 'Artillery'.

            Pte Lens Meniclier a Cdn is listed as a dragoon. Capt Coleman's Tp
            perhaps? Eleven other Canadians are also listed as prisoners.

            I don't blame Patrick Kelly for trying to escape, I regularly attend
            courses in Berea KY between Christmas an New Year; a dry town in a
            dry county. Strangely enough the only wet town in that county is
            Frankfort. Perhaps the poor fellow only wanted to go and have
            Christmas drink with his waiter friends?

            Cheers,

            Len
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