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Interesting Article on Drill/Command

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  • lalozon
    From: J-P Johnson L2:No matter how good the Commander is .... if the troops do not listen the Army will not perform well. JP: If the
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 29, 2005
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      From: "J-P Johnson" <jpjohnsn@...>

      L2:No matter how good the Commander is .... if the troops do not listen the
      Army will not perform well.

      JP: If the troopies don't listen, he ain't a good commander and neither are
      the individual unit commanders who are responsible for those troops.

      L2: If the troopies don't listen ... they ain't a good troopies
      ------------------

      JP: As you may know, a good definition of leadership is "The art of
      influencing human behaviour to accomplish a mission in the manner desired by
      the leader". If he can't influence the troops to be serious when they need
      to be, he's not a good leader and consequently, not a good commander.

      Properly trained and led troops know how to behave when it's time to be
      serious and competent leaders know when that time is - and also when it
      isn't.

      L2: My statement pertained to "during battle re-enactment" I do think that
      is the time to "be serious" .... listen to the commands and conduct the
      battle tactical as per the event co-ordinators wishes. I doubt if they want
      a bunch of giggling, laughing soldiers on the field for the spectators to
      see.

      A good commander should not have to command those who will not listen to
      commands
      ----------

      L2: If everybody is laughing, joking and not listening ... the Commander can
      shout his tonsils out and nothing will happen. With Safety at a high level
      with Parks Canada and National Parks Service as well as other sites, the
      ability to perform 'Safe Drill' is Premier.

      One accident and this "YOUR" hobby is over!

      PS: Laughing during a battle by re-enactors looks so "DORKY" to the
      spectators

      JP: I'm not sure why you are tying this to safety. It has been my experience
      in this hobby, meager as it is, that, by and large, the laughing and joking
      pretty much ceases as battle is joined. The pre-show hi-jinks are a sign of
      good esprit-de-corps and camaraderie and likely historically accurate prior
      to a battle.



      L2: I am tying this to SAFETY because I have heard sites comment on
      'laughing bafoons" (quote) on the field who were not listing to the commands
      and marched infront of a loaded cannon as it was about to fire.

      I am tying this to SAFETY because I have heard sites comment on re-enactors
      not listening to commands and marching to the wrong objective and ruining a
      choreographed battle

      I am tying this to SAFETY because I was part of a unit that was talking and
      laughing and not listening to commands at New Orleans and that unit was not
      invited back and was made to drill all day to show them that listening to
      commands makes a SAFE unit.

      Ask a site co-ordinator ...... Safety is Premier ...... Insurance today for
      a site is horrendous and we all play with weapons when attending!



      In conclusion, there are units who have been drilling all winter and
      learning how to act safely on the field. They are learning how to listen to
      commands and execute them safely.

      I heard a commander once state on Friday evening, "put on your uniform and
      from now till Sunday afternoon act as soldiers".

      If anyone has served in the modern Armed Forces they know that talking and
      laughing in the ranks does not show esprit de corps or camaraderie .. rather
      it keeps others from listening and doing their job as solders.


      Agreed Mr. Windsor ......


      From: "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>

      I think what Mr Lozon is trying to say is that there are a lot of things
      happening on the field......



      Yes, as narrator I have the best seat at the battle re-enactment and some of
      the hi-jinks and foul language is not appreciated by the spectators ........





      We need good commanders, yes

      and we need good soldiers,

      who listen to the commands and are able to act out the battle re-enactments
      our hobby is made of.


      I think those that get it ........... do!

      Yrs.,

      L2
    • suthren@magma.ca
      To approach this string from seaward, as it were: naval re-enactment is so often a matter of being intensely involved in unaccustomed technical activity that
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 29, 2005
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        To approach this string from seaward, as it were: naval re-enactment is so
        often a matter of being intensely involved in unaccustomed technical
        activity that requires serious focus and listening alertly for orders and
        instructions (or you get a finger crushed in a cleat, are knocked silly by a
        sheet block, or suddenly must contemplate drowning) that individuals playing
        the 'silly bugger' are usually not in evidence when weekend sailors are
        embarked in boats or a replica sailing vessel and are trying to be useful
        and keep out of harm's many ways. Fear or the prospect of pain---or even
        embarrassment---does focus the mind wonderfully, to paraphrase someone.

        Artillery and cavalry have their own reasons to be serious and 'in focus'
        all the time; perhaps a similar overt discipline when on the field should be
        more actively encouraged with infantry re-enactors as both a safety factor
        and a means of more effectively 'conjuring the past' for the benefit of both
        the audience and your mates who are observing you, and who want to have the
        'feel' of 1813, rather than 2005. Acting as if you are part of a serious and
        disciplined soldiery, and keeping jokes 'sotto voce'---as was done in in
        Days of Yore---with a straight face is a means of achieving that.

        Vic Suthren
        Naval Establishment
        Crown Forces North America

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "lalozon" <lalozon@...>
        To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 11:21 AM
        Subject: [WarOf1812] Interesting Article on Drill/Command


        >
        > From: "J-P Johnson" <jpjohnsn@...>
        >
        > L2:No matter how good the Commander is .... if the troops do not listen
        the
        > Army will not perform well.
        >
        > JP: If the troopies don't listen, he ain't a good commander and neither
        are
        > the individual unit commanders who are responsible for those troops.
        >
        > L2: If the troopies don't listen ... they ain't a good troopies
        > ------------------
        >
        > JP: As you may know, a good definition of leadership is "The art of
        > influencing human behaviour to accomplish a mission in the manner desired
        by
        > the leader". If he can't influence the troops to be serious when they need
        > to be, he's not a good leader and consequently, not a good commander.
        >
        > Properly trained and led troops know how to behave when it's time to be
        > serious and competent leaders know when that time is - and also when it
        > isn't.
        >
        > L2: My statement pertained to "during battle re-enactment" I do think that
        > is the time to "be serious" .... listen to the commands and conduct the
        > battle tactical as per the event co-ordinators wishes. I doubt if they
        want
        > a bunch of giggling, laughing soldiers on the field for the spectators to
        > see.
        >
        > A good commander should not have to command those who will not listen to
        > commands
        > ----------
        >
        > L2: If everybody is laughing, joking and not listening ... the Commander
        can
        > shout his tonsils out and nothing will happen. With Safety at a high level
        > with Parks Canada and National Parks Service as well as other sites, the
        > ability to perform 'Safe Drill' is Premier.
        >
        > One accident and this "YOUR" hobby is over!
        >
        > PS: Laughing during a battle by re-enactors looks so "DORKY" to the
        > spectators
        >
        > JP: I'm not sure why you are tying this to safety. It has been my
        experience
        > in this hobby, meager as it is, that, by and large, the laughing and
        joking
        > pretty much ceases as battle is joined. The pre-show hi-jinks are a sign
        of
        > good esprit-de-corps and camaraderie and likely historically accurate
        prior
        > to a battle.
        >
        >
        >
        > L2: I am tying this to SAFETY because I have heard sites comment on
        > 'laughing bafoons" (quote) on the field who were not listing to the
        commands
        > and marched infront of a loaded cannon as it was about to fire.
        >
        > I am tying this to SAFETY because I have heard sites comment on
        re-enactors
        > not listening to commands and marching to the wrong objective and ruining
        a
        > choreographed battle
        >
        > I am tying this to SAFETY because I was part of a unit that was talking
        and
        > laughing and not listening to commands at New Orleans and that unit was
        not
        > invited back and was made to drill all day to show them that listening to
        > commands makes a SAFE unit.
        >
        > Ask a site co-ordinator ...... Safety is Premier ...... Insurance today
        for
        > a site is horrendous and we all play with weapons when attending!
        >
        >
        >
        > In conclusion, there are units who have been drilling all winter and
        > learning how to act safely on the field. They are learning how to listen
        to
        > commands and execute them safely.
        >
        > I heard a commander once state on Friday evening, "put on your uniform and
        > from now till Sunday afternoon act as soldiers".
        >
        > If anyone has served in the modern Armed Forces they know that talking and
        > laughing in the ranks does not show esprit de corps or camaraderie ..
        rather
        > it keeps others from listening and doing their job as solders.
        >
        >
        > Agreed Mr. Windsor ......
        >
        >
        > From: "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>
        >
        > I think what Mr Lozon is trying to say is that there are a lot of things
        > happening on the field......
        >
        >
        >
        > Yes, as narrator I have the best seat at the battle re-enactment and some
        of
        > the hi-jinks and foul language is not appreciated by the spectators
        ........
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > We need good commanders, yes
        >
        > and we need good soldiers,
        >
        > who listen to the commands and are able to act out the battle
        re-enactments
        > our hobby is made of.
        >
        >
        > I think those that get it ........... do!
        >
        > Yrs.,
        >
        > L2
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
        square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
        ... Excellent point Vic. One of the reasons I detest unauthentic safety devices of dubious merit is that they tend to make the infantry think that they are
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 29, 2005
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          In a message dated 1/29/05 11:16:22 AM, suthren@... writes:


          > Artillery and cavalry have their own reasons to be serious and 'in focus'
          > all the time; perhaps a similar overt discipline when on the field should be
          > more actively encouraged with infantry re-enactors as both a safety factor
          > and a means of more effectively 'conjuring the past' for the benefit of both
          > the audience and your mates who are observing you, and who want to have the
          > 'feel' of 1813, rather than 2005. Acting as if you are part of a serious and
          > disciplined soldiery, and keeping jokes 'sotto voce'---as was done in in
          > Days of Yore---with a straight face is a means of achieving that.
          >

          Excellent point Vic. One of the reasons I detest unauthentic 'safety' devices
          of dubious merit is that they tend to make the infantry think that they are
          now 'safe' both to themselves and others. I think we must all remember, at all
          times that, while what we do is fun, what we use are instruments made to kill
          and they are never completely safe if handled in an iresponsible manner. In
          some ways inapropriate jokes in the ranks are an ideal oportunity for NCOs to
          enforce the dicipline in the same way their forebears might have!

          Cheers

          Tim




          Timothy Pickles
          1100 Rue Chartres
          New Orleans
          Louisiana 70116
          Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
          Mobile: 504 236 7130



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Phil Graf
          Which devices are these, Tim? I m just curious. Phil Excellent point Vic. One of the reasons I detest unauthentic safety devices of dubious merit is that
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 30, 2005
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            Which devices are these, Tim? I'm just curious.

            Phil
            Excellent point Vic. One of the reasons I detest unauthentic 'safety' devices
            of dubious merit is that they tend to make the infantry think that they are
            now 'safe' both to themselves and others. I think we must all remember, at all
            times that, while what we do is fun, what we use are instruments made to kill
            and they are never completely safe if handled in an iresponsible manner. In
            some ways inapropriate jokes in the ranks are an ideal oportunity for NCOs to
            enforce the dicipline in the same way their forebears might have!

            Cheers

            Tim

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kevin Windsor
            Check the archive under flashguards and hammer stall/frizzen stalls. K ... From: Phil Graf
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 31, 2005
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              Check the archive under flashguards and hammer stall/frizzen stalls.

              K
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@...>

              >
              > Which devices are these, Tim? I'm just curious.
              >
              > Phil
              > Excellent point Vic. One of the reasons I detest unauthentic 'safety'
              > devices
              > of dubious merit is that they tend to make the infantry think that they
              > are
              > now 'safe' both to themselves and others.
            • hm95thfoot
              I ll bite. He means, and has spoken about them before, hammerstalls and flashguards, two items developed for the RevWar side of the hobby in the 1960s or early
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 31, 2005
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                I'll bite. He means, and has spoken about them before, hammerstalls
                and flashguards, two items developed for the RevWar side of the
                hobby in the 1960s or early 1970s to help ward off potential
                liability lawsuits, should somebody get hurt while operating a
                musket or rifle.

                Since the Brigade of the American Revolution was formed in NY and
                NJ, two very litigious states (where you could throw a dime out in
                the street and hit a lawyer walking by, there are so many of them),
                and the population in the greater NYC area was not exactly firearms-
                friendly or -conversant, it seemed like a wise idea, esp. since so
                many of their events were held in very close proximity to the public
                in very thickly settled areas. I must say, though, that few
                accidents I have ever seen with muskets and rifles could have been
                prevented with flashguards and hammerstalls.

                F'rinstance, how often do we see overprimed muskets go off, only to
                flash-singe the firer in the face? Or people who fire their muskets
                at the wrong time, or with too much powder? No fitted safety device
                can make a gun fool-proof, or in this case, damnedfool-proof.

                It is interesting to note, however, that WW2 and WW1 reenactors have
                eschewed all manner of brass delectors, etc. from their guns, saing
                they don't want to go down the same legal road that AWI reenactors
                have done. Of course, many WW1/2 events are not held for the public,
                lessening the danger of a negligent discharge hurting a spectator.
                (BTW there is NO such thing as an "accidental discharge"- you, the
                owner and operator of a firearm is responsible for whatever happens
                with it)

                If people are trained properly, and their muskets are in good
                working order, there will be no problem, but as Tim has said, these
                are inherently hazardous tools and should be treated with respect,
                since they are real g u n s.
                I'm always amazed talking with some reenactors who don't see
                themselves as gunowners, since they don't fire "live" ammo from
                these devices. They are not theatrical props, they are real guns,
                that if misused could maim or kill somebody. No hammerstall or
                flashguard is going to stop a fool. They are legalistic figleaves,
                put on to show potential juries, that, "Yes, we are concerned about
                safety- see what we did for safety on the guns themselves?"

                There is no substitute for well-maintained guns and well-trained
                people shooting them.

                Roger Fuller


                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Graf" <phil_graf@h...> wrote:
                > Which devices are these, Tim? I'm just curious.
                >
                > Phil
                > Excellent point Vic. One of the reasons I detest
                unauthentic 'safety' devices
                > of dubious merit is that they tend to make the infantry think
                that they are
                > now 'safe' both to themselves and others. I think we must all
                remember, at all
                > times that, while what we do is fun, what we use are instruments
                made to kill
                > and they are never completely safe if handled in an iresponsible
                manner. In
                > some ways inapropriate jokes in the ranks are an ideal
                oportunity for NCOs to
                > enforce the dicipline in the same way their forebears might have!
                >
                > Cheers
                >
                > Tim
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                ... The flashguard and hammerstall Phil. The thread has been gone over a million times so lets not start it again but I truely detest them. Cheers Tim
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 31, 2005
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                  In a message dated 1/30/05 9:09:45 PM, phil_graf@... writes:


                  > Which devices are these, Tim?  I'm just curious.
                  >
                  >

                  The flashguard and hammerstall Phil. The thread has been gone over a million
                  times so lets not start it again but I truely detest them.

                  Cheers

                  Tim




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • craig w
                  Years ago, when I was discussing the Canadian firearms act in general and re-enactor safety specifically with a British friend, ( who suffers from slightly
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 31, 2005
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                    Years ago, when I was discussing the Canadian firearms act in general
                    and re-enactor safety specifically with a British friend, ( who suffers
                    from slightly more draconian gun laws than we Canucks), he pointed out
                    that governments have developed the attitude that they must somehow
                    legislate against insanity or stupidity.
                    This, of course due to liability lawsuits and the insane awards
                    attached to them.
                    In reality, it is clear to me now that hammerstalls flashguards,
                    mandatory firearms training, storage laws..etc. likely have less to do
                    with protecting the public and more to do with protecting the
                    government from lawsuits.
                    It called due diligence and we , the re-enacting community, must
                    adhere to it in much the same way as everyone in the workforce adheres
                    to WHMIS. Safety is everyones business.
                    Unfortunately, the flashguard and hammerstall were foisted upon us by
                    the "well meaning" and it would take practically nothing less than a
                    Papal Indulgence to get historic sites or insurance companies to back
                    off of them now!
                    (don't get me started on the nonsensical thinking of insurance
                    companies!)
                    When it comes to insurance and liability, we are all judged by the
                    lowest common denominator.
                    So we must do our due diligence.

                    As Roger correctly points out, proper training and proper maintenance
                    is really all we should need. Unfortunately, no matter how hard or
                    frequently we might train, there is always going to be someone who
                    thinks they can slide by without the same effort.
                    And he makes a good point about gun ownership too. Just because we in
                    Canada are fortunate to have had RIchard Feltoe lobby the government
                    into removing flintlocks (and wheel-locks and matchlocks) from the list
                    of firearms requiring a license, doesn't mean they're not firearms. It
                    means we're lucky.
                    And, as has been pointed out quite a few times of late, all it would
                    take for our luck to change is one accident.

                    Tuppence, and then some,

                    Craig Williams
                  • Kevin Windsor
                    The problem is you we are doing to wrong thing. If you want to make a musket fool proof...remove the fool! (sorry couldn t resist) K ... From: hm95thfoot
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 31, 2005
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                      The problem is you we are doing to wrong thing. If you want to make a
                      musket fool proof...remove the fool!

                      (sorry couldn't resist)
                      K
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "hm95thfoot" <fullerfamily@...>

                      No fitted safety device can make a gun fool-proof, or in this case,
                      damnedfool-proof.
                    • lalozon
                      From: Kevin Windsor If you want to make a musket fool proof...remove the fool! ................ Thank you so much Mr Fuller,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 31, 2005
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                        From: "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@...>

                        " If you want to make a musket fool proof...remove the fool!


                        ................




                        Thank you so much Mr Fuller, Williams and Windsor


                        For a fine thread ........... *


                        Yrs.,

                        L2
                      • Karl Dennahower
                        I found this thread to be quite informative. After being drilled for so many years that frisson covers were bad and never given a direct answer why or why
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 31, 2005
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                          I found this thread to be quite informative. After being drilled for
                          so many years that frisson covers were bad and never given a direct
                          answer why or why not. This gives a whole new perspective on things
                          for myself. I thank those that have contributed and have educated me
                          from a different perspective opn this subject!

                          Karl Dennahower
                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "lalozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
                          > From: "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@s...>
                          >
                          > " If you want to make a musket fool proof...remove the fool!
                          >
                          >
                          > ................
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thank you so much Mr Fuller, Williams and Windsor
                          >
                          >
                          > For a fine thread ........... *
                          >
                          >
                          > Yrs.,
                          >
                          > L2
                        • Karl Dennahower
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 31, 2005
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                            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Karl Dennahower" <reenactor73@y...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I found this thread to be quite informative. After being drilled for
                            > so many years that flash gaurds were bad and never given a direct
                            > answer why or why not. This gives a whole new perspective on things
                            > for myself. I thank those that have contributed and have educated me
                            > from a different perspective on this subject!
                            >
                            > Karl Dennahower
                            > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "lalozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
                            > > From: "Kevin Windsor" <kevin.windsor@s...>
                            > >
                            > > " If you want to make a musket fool proof...remove the fool!
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ................
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Thank you so much Mr Fuller, Williams and Windsor
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > For a fine thread ........... *
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yrs.,
                            > >
                            > > L2
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