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Re: [WarOf1812] Esquire

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  • suthren@magma.ca
    While there is a lot of kidding going on as regards Esquire , please do bear in mind that there is the historical environment of 1812 (wherein whatever term
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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      While there is a lot of kidding going on as regards 'Esquire', please do
      bear in mind that there is the historical environment of 1812 (wherein
      whatever term one used was strictly bound by societal protocol) and the
      modern environment of North America, in which British social stratifications
      and the terminology used to perpetuate them are as irrelevant as those of
      the Japanese. Do let's not confuse the two, chaps.
      Vic Suthren
      Ottawa
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Robert White" <whiteesq@...>
      To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:59 AM
      Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Esquire


      >
      > L2 - and when you "talk" with Mr. Monahan could you use a second from the
      legal fraternity all be it that he is a yank? Robert R. White, Esq., Pvt.
      US Marines aboard Constitution
      >
      > Larry Lozon <lalozon@...> wrote:From: "Peter Monahan"
      <petemonahan@...>
      >
      >
      > > Please do not confuse the Squirage with the Peerage!!
      > >
      > > He is definitely already above his "station" in life, DO NOT encourage
      > him,
      > > the Earl of Titchmarsh beggars belief :-)
      > >
      > > Actually, I have that differencing figured out. What truly concerns me
      is
      > the
      > > Lord of London (Ontario, Canada) -"L2" - and his claim that he is
      entitled
      > to use "Esquire".
      > >
      > > It beggars belief that he could be a member of the noble classes, even
      on
      > the wrong side of the blanket and I hesitate > to blacken his character,
      > such as it is, by suggesting that he might be a member of the legal
      > fraternity so... ?
      > -----
      >
      > Mr. Monahan
      >
      > First, I believe the Governor is talking about the Earl of Titchmarsh
      > and not L2
      >
      > Second "L2" is not the Lord of London (Ontario, Canada) I have never
      > lived in London
      >
      > Third, re: a legal fraternity ...... we shall talk .......
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
      square miles...
      >
      > Unit Contact information for North America:
      > ---------------------------------
      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      >
      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
      >
      >
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      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
      square miles...
      >
      > Unit Contact information for North America:
      > ---------------------------------
      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      >
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    • David Lynch
      ... from the legal fraternity all be it that he is a yank? Robert R. White, Esq., Pvt. US Marines aboard Constitution ... Originally, Esquire indicated
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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        --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Robert White <whiteesq@y...> wrote:
        > L2 - and when you "talk" with Mr. Monahan could you use a second
        from the legal fraternity all be it that he is a yank? Robert R.
        White, Esq., Pvt. US Marines aboard Constitution
        >

        Originally, "Esquire" indicated one's status as a member of the
        gentry - more than a gentleman, but not a Knight. Younger sons of
        peers not otherwise entitled to use "Lord" (ie, Earls and below),
        eldest sons of Knights, and members of the learned professions would
        be among those entitled to the use of the appellation "Esquire".

        The use of "Esquire" in the legal community is properly reserved for
        use in correspondence from one lawyer to another. One should never,
        however, use the term "Esq." to describe oneself. While I would
        address a letter to John S. Smith, Esq., I would not sign it David
        L. Lynch, Esq. Finally, it was also considered improper for non-
        lawyers to use the term "Esquire" when addressing a lawyer.

        Thus, it would certainly appear that L2, Esq., as younger son of the
        Duke of Dipsidoodle, is perfectly entitled to it!

        Cheers,
        Dave Lynch
        93rd SHRoFLHU
        THE Thin Red Line
      • BritcomHMP@aol.com
        In a message dated 01/11/2004 18:36:56 Central Standard Time, dave8365@aol.com writes: Thus, it would certainly appear that L2, Esq., as younger son of the
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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          In a message dated 01/11/2004 18:36:56 Central Standard Time,
          dave8365@... writes:

          Thus, it would certainly appear that L2, Esq., as younger son of the
          Duke of Dipsidoodle, is perfectly entitled to it!



          Actualy Dave in if Dady were a Duke, with no other title, you would be
          either (depending on circumstance) Lord David or The Honourable David.

          Cheers

          Tim


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Larry Lozon
          Robert R. White, Esq., wrote: L2 .... could you use a second from the legal fraternity .... From: David L. Lynch, Esq. Thus, it would certainly appear that
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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            Robert R. White, Esq., wrote:

            L2 .... could you use a second from the legal fraternity ....

            From: "David L. Lynch, Esq."

            Thus, it would certainly appear that L2, Esq., as younger son of the
            Duke of Dipsidoodle, is perfectly entitled to it!

            -------------

            Mr. David L. Lynch, Esq, who at one tyme did act as my second and friend
            near the Mississinewa River during an affair of honour, Sir, may I
            respectfully
            correct your statement as I was the only son .... thus heir to the Duke!

            You Sir, a Barrister and Solicitor from the State of California I am unaware
            if
            the title 'Yank' will set with you as you are from south of the line
            Messieurs
            Mason and Dixon did scribe.


            Yrs.,

            L2
          • BritcomHMP@aol.com
            In a message dated 01/11/2004 19:07:25 Central Standard Time, lalozon@netrover.com writes: Mr. David L. Lynch, Esq, OOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo Unkle Lar
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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              In a message dated 01/11/2004 19:07:25 Central Standard Time,
              lalozon@... writes:


              Mr. David L. Lynch, Esq,


              OOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo Unkle Lar !!!!!!!!! that is the BIG no no!

              Never ever under any circumstances Mr. & Esquire on the same name at the
              same time!!!

              For shame, you will be eating with your fork in your right hand next :-)!

              Timbo (aka Miss Manners)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Lynch
              ... the ... would be ... David. ... You are ever so right, Tim...in my haste to make a small joke, I meant to say the Earl of Dipsidoodle, rather than Duke of
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
                >
                > In a message dated 01/11/2004 18:36:56 Central Standard Time,
                > dave8365@a... writes:
                >
                > Thus, it would certainly appear that L2, Esq., as younger son of
                the
                > Duke of Dipsidoodle, is perfectly entitled to it!
                >
                >
                >
                > Actualy Dave in if Dady were a Duke, with no other title, you
                would be
                > either (depending on circumstance) Lord David or The Honourable
                David.
                >
                > Cheers
                >
                > Tim
                >
                >


                You are ever so right, Tim...in my haste to make a small joke, I
                meant to say the Earl of Dipsidoodle, rather than Duke of
                Dipsidoodle.

                Oh well...they can't all be gems.

                Vis-a-vis "the honorable"; that was used when referring to a younger
                son in the third person, while first and second person were as Lord
                Larry...yes?

                Well...carry on making your mud pies.

                Dave Lynch
              • David Lynch
                My Dear Mr. Lozon, I would happily second you any time. Even third and fourth you, if required. Timbo having already bopped you upon the head on one count, I
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  My Dear Mr. Lozon,

                  I would happily second you any time. Even third and fourth you, if
                  required.

                  Timbo having already bopped you upon the head on one count, I shan't
                  add to your tweaking, except to say that, as heir to the Duke, you
                  would be according one of his lesser courtesy titles - for example,
                  the Earl of Wessex will succeed to the Duchy of Edinburgh upon the
                  passing of the present Duke.

                  I should also hasten to add that, from a Californian's perspective,
                  names such as "Yank" and "Mason-Dixon" are only important to that
                  overly-fed segment of the Eastern Seaboard who insist on wearing
                  drab, ill-fitting uniforms. I bet none of them has ever considered
                  purchasing a decent man's corset (not to mention their commission!)

                  Cheers,
                  David Lynch
                  93rd, etc.


                  --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Robert R. White, Esq., wrote:
                  >
                  > L2 .... could you use a second from the legal fraternity ....
                  >
                  > From: "David L. Lynch, Esq."
                  >
                  > Thus, it would certainly appear that L2, Esq., as younger son of
                  the
                  > Duke of Dipsidoodle, is perfectly entitled to it!
                  >
                  > -------------
                  >
                  > Mr. David L. Lynch, Esq, who at one tyme did act as my second and
                  friend
                  > near the Mississinewa River during an affair of honour, Sir, may I
                  > respectfully
                  > correct your statement as I was the only son .... thus heir to the
                  Duke!
                  >
                  > You Sir, a Barrister and Solicitor from the State of California I
                  am unaware
                  > if
                  > the title 'Yank' will set with you as you are from south of the
                  line
                  > Messieurs
                  > Mason and Dixon did scribe.
                  >
                  >
                  > Yrs.,
                  >
                  > L2
                • Larry Lozon
                  From: OOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo Unkle Lar !!!!!!!!! that is the BIG no no! For shame, you will be eating with your fork in your right hand
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                    From: <BritcomHMP@...>

                    OOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooo Unkle Lar !!!!!!!!!
                    that is the BIG no no!

                    For shame, you will be eating with your fork in your right hand next :-)!



                    ------------------------

                    Ny Dear Miss Timbo Manners


                    Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Mea Maxima Culpa .......


                    Ora pro nobis


                    Yrs.,
                    L2 ~ PX
                  • Larry Lozon
                    From: David Lynch I meant to say the Earl of Dipsidoodle, rather than Duke of Dipsidoodle. ... Or........ was it the Duke of Earl ?!
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                      From: "David Lynch" <dave8365@...>

                      I meant to say the Earl of Dipsidoodle,
                      rather than Duke of Dipsidoodle.

                      ------------------------

                      Or........


                      was it the 'Duke of Earl' ?! :^)
                    • J.Bruce Whittaker
                      Greetings, I found this regarding the use of Esquire . Enjoy es*quire (noun) [Middle English, from Middle French escuier squire, from Late Latin scutarius,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                        Greetings,
                        I found this regarding the use of "Esquire". Enjoy

                        "es*quire (noun)

                        [Middle English, from Middle French escuier squire, from Late Latin
                        scutarius, from Latin scutum shield; akin to Old Irish sciath shield]

                        First appeared 15th Century

                        1 : a member of the English gentry ranking below a knight

                        2 : a candidate for knighthood serving as shield bearer and attendant
                        to a knight

                        3 -- used as a title of courtesy usu. placed in its abbreviated form
                        after the surname

                        4 archaic : a landed proprietor"

                        Now you might ask: what allows one to use this title? Is there a
                        ceremony? Is it conferred by a university? Is it just some
                        affectation that snob-nosed folks use? Can I be Joe Blow, Esq. just
                        because I like the ring to it? Or do I need to get authorization, and
                        if so from what? from where?

                        The answer is that any snob in the world can use the title. In
                        fact, "squire" is a contraction of "esquire." I went to Black's Law
                        Dictionary and they say (5th Ed., p. 489): "In Eng. law, a title of
                        dignity above gentleman and below knight. Also a title of office
                        given to sheriffs, serjeants, and and barristers at law, justices of
                        the peace, and others. In the U.S., title commonly after the name of
                        an attorney; e.g., John J. Jones, Esquire." The entry for Gentleman
                        reads: "In its Engl. origin, this term formerly referred to a man of
                        noble or gentle birth; one belonging to the landed gentry; a man of
                        independent means; all above the rank of Yeomen." (Id. at 618.)
                        Knight means: "In Eng. law, the next personal dignity after the
                        nobility." (Id. at 783.)

                        Now of course in England there's this whole business about hereditary
                        nobility and getting knighted and all that, so it might be a little
                        risky to start calling yourself esquire there. But we're not in
                        England. You can call yourself anything you want here ... although
                        you do take the risk that you will be thought a snooty jerk. Since
                        this has never bothered lawyers, they have gotten into the habit of
                        calling each other esquire. This is a little like elected officials
                        addressing each other as "honorable," which to me seems a classic
                        case of advertising something after it's gone. But I digress.

                        Among lawyers, it's thought pretentious if you signs yourself "Esq."
                        in written communications but you are supposed to dignify other
                        lawyers with the appellation. So a lawyer's letters go out, "Yours
                        very truly, Snidely Whiplash" but the envelope comes back addressed
                        to "Snidely Whiplash, Esq." Also, you never put "Ms." or "Mr." in
                        front of the name when you use "Esq." Still, this is strictly custom,
                        and even if you never saw the inside of a law school there's nothing
                        to prevent you from calling yourself esquire ... except the fact that
                        you might be thought a lawyer.
                      • dancingbobd@webtv.net
                        Especially, they might think you are a lawyer! ;-) Bob Dorian [Just plain Bob]
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                          Especially, they might think you are a lawyer! ;-)

                          Bob Dorian
                          [Just plain Bob]
                        • Peter Catley
                          ... From: J.Bruce Whittaker [mailto:ortheris@rogers.com] Sent: 02 November 2004 16:17 To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com Subject: [WarOf1812] re: Esquire Greetings,
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: J.Bruce Whittaker [mailto:ortheris@...]
                            Sent: 02 November 2004 16:17
                            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [WarOf1812] re: Esquire




                            Greetings,
                            I found this regarding the use of "Esquire". Enjoy

                            Now you might ask: what allows one to use this title? Is there a
                            ceremony? Is it conferred by a university? Is it just some
                            affectation that snob-nosed folks use? Can I be Joe Blow, Esq. just
                            because I like the ring to it? Or do I need to get authorization, and
                            if so from what? from where?

                            Basically if you fancy it you can use it at least in the UK and I guess
                            Ireland.

                            Now of course in England there's this whole business about hereditary
                            nobility and getting knighted and all that, so it might be a little
                            risky to start calling yourself esquire there. But we're not in
                            England. You can call yourself anything you want here ... although
                            you do take the risk that you will be thought a snooty jerk. Since
                            this has never bothered lawyers, they have gotten into the habit of
                            calling each other esquire. This is a little like elected officials
                            addressing each other as "honorable," which to me seems a classic
                            case of advertising something after it's gone. But I digress.


                            There is no social risk in Britain using the title esquire or esq. it is
                            frequently used in written communications of a formal nature and certainly
                            there is no formal requirement about it although it could be considered a
                            miidle class profressional aspirant snobbish addition :-) Incidently there
                            is no quivalent for women.


                            So cheers

                            Peter Catley esq.


                            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                            square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                            square miles...

                            Unit Contact information for North America:
                            ---------------------------------
                            Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                            http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                            American Forces Unit Lisiting
                            http://usforces1812.tripod.com



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