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RE: [WarOf1812] facial hair

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  • Peter Catley
    Isn t half pay a Rupert thing? My understanding is that the Pensioners (OR) were not on half pay, they were discharged from the Army and became Out-Pensioners
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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      Isn't half pay a Rupert thing? My understanding is that the Pensioners (OR)
      were not on half pay, they were discharged from the Army and became
      Out-Pensioners after an award made by the Medical Board of the Hospital this
      was then surrendered on ceasing to be out-pensioners when they entered the
      hospital. Your question is valid, but as I understand the situation that all
      pensioners kept their badges of rank even though they ceased to carry the
      ranks, so corporals wore two stripes even though they were not corporals in
      the hospital. One can reasonably assume that this would also applied to
      Pioneers.

      As to whether the In-Pensioners are "in" the Army I am not 100% sure.
      Certainly today I believe thay are are not subject to Queens Regulation and
      my understanding is that in our period they were discharged (that much is
      documented!) before being awarded their pension. It would seem likely
      therefore that they were not subject to the same Army Regulations and would
      have their own Hospital Rules.

      Neither of the paintings by Pyne or Hamilton-Smith show a hairsute
      pensioner, and Hamilton-Smith shows a one legged pensioner :-) I do have a
      picture of an elderly pensioner with a beard but cannot date it precisely,
      the uniform is no later than early Victorian (1840ish?). There continues to
      be the same problem relating to absolutism, the fact that something is not
      documented doesn't mean that it didn't exsist merely that it was not the
      norm. I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the
      purists would have us believe, especially in the case of overseas postings
      such as the Peninsula and Canada.

      However the reality of the situation cannot be proved either way.

      Cheers now.

      P**

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Larry Lozon [mailto:lalozon@...]
      Sent: 01 September 2004 20:50
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [WarOf1812] facial hair


      From: <suthren@...>

      My understanding is that facial hair in British service
      ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of
      the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
      pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.

      ------------------------

      Question:

      If the Chelsea Pensioners in 1812-1815 were in the British Army on
      half pay,
      would they not come under the Army Regulations of shaving every three days?

      I have not seen period images of Chelsea Pensioners with facial hair.

      Those more qualified with the Royal Warrants may want to answer my question.

      For those interested in this matter
      visit:
      http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk


      Yrs.,

      L2












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      ---------------------------------
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    • suthren@magma.ca
      Larry makes a good point. I cannot quote any image of Pensioners with facial hair, nor orders either for or against. Socially, beards were still associated
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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        Larry makes a good point. I cannot quote any image of Pensioners with facial
        hair, nor orders either for or against. Socially, beards were still
        associated with the identity of incarcerated lunatics or criminals, so it
        may be that the exclusion of facial hair as far as we are concerned (unless
        someone is nuts or a crook) should be universal. Probably means some lads
        will pack up their stuff and go home rather than shave---but we would look
        more like we are supposed to look. Problem is, some otherwise very fine
        re-enactors turn out with jarring full Crimean beards for 1812: how do we
        reason with these sterling chaps and get 'em to see the light---er, razor?
        Vic
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
        To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:50 PM
        Subject: [WarOf1812] facial hair


        > From: <suthren@...>
        >
        > My understanding is that facial hair in British service
        > ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of
        > the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
        > pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.
        >
        > ------------------------
        >
        > Question:
        >
        > If the Chelsea Pensioners in 1812-1815 were in the British Army on
        > half pay,
        > would they not come under the Army Regulations of shaving every three
        days?
        >
        > I have not seen period images of Chelsea Pensioners with facial hair.
        >
        > Those more qualified with the Royal Warrants may want to answer my
        question.
        >
        > For those interested in this matter
        > visit:
        > http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk
        >
        >
        > Yrs.,
        >
        > L2
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
        square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Larry Lozon
        From: Peter Catley I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the purists would have us believe, especially in
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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          From: "Peter Catley" <peter.catley@...>



          I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the
          purists would have us believe, especially in the case of overseas postings
          such as the Peninsula and Canada.

          .............

          No Chelsea Pensioners in Canada or the Peninsula they were all adjacent
          to
          the River Thames in the pastoral setting of Chelsea.

          King Charles was determined to make provision for the soldiers on the
          English
          establishment and on 22nd December 1681 he issued a Royal Warrant
          authorising
          the building of the Royal Hospital.

          Therefore Royal Warrant and to answer Mr. Windsor's question, they
          maintained their
          army rank in the Royal Hospital Chelsea thus came under Warrant rules of the
          Army.

          From:

          http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk/

          The term 'Chelsea Pensioner' has been used over the centuries to describe
          both 'In-' and 'Out-Pensioners'.
          An 'In-Pensioner' is simply one who resides in the Royal Hospital Chelsea.
          On entry, he surrenders his army
          pension. An Out-Pensioner is a former soldier of the Regular Army who
          receives a pension for long service
          and/or disability caused through service.

          The term derives from the period when the Royal Hospital was still being
          built. James II, who succeeded King Charles in 1685, made the first attempt
          to put Army pensions on a systematic basis in 1689. He decreed that a daily
          allowance should be made to all soldiers disabled by wounds or accidents,
          who had become unfit for service or who had served for 20 years.

          By the time the Royal Hospital opened there were more Pensioners than places
          available. Those that could not be offered a place were termed
          Out-Pensioners. In 1703 there were as few as 51. However, the increasing
          size of a standing army meant that the number of Out-Pensioners rose
          steadily - from 739 in 1708, to 14,700 in 1763 (after the Seven Years War)
          and 36,757 in 1815.

          The Royal Hospital remained responsible for all army pensions until 1955.

          Interesting ........
        • glifencible
          ... lunatics or criminals... ... light---er, razor? I don t think you can reason with lunatics or criminals! *ducking for cover*
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 2, 2004
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            > beards were still associated with the identity of incarcerated
            lunatics or criminals...

            >how do we reason with these sterling chaps and get 'em to see the
            light---er, razor?

            I don't think you can reason with lunatics or criminals! *ducking for
            cover*
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