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facial hair

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  • Larry Lozon
    From: My understanding is that facial hair in British service ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of the mouth to the
    Message 1 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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      From: <suthren@...>

      My understanding is that facial hair in British service
      ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of
      the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
      pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.

      ------------------------

      Question:

      If the Chelsea Pensioners in 1812-1815 were in the British Army on
      half pay,
      would they not come under the Army Regulations of shaving every three days?

      I have not seen period images of Chelsea Pensioners with facial hair.

      Those more qualified with the Royal Warrants may want to answer my question.

      For those interested in this matter
      visit:
      http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk


      Yrs.,

      L2
    • Peter Catley
      Isn t half pay a Rupert thing? My understanding is that the Pensioners (OR) were not on half pay, they were discharged from the Army and became Out-Pensioners
      Message 2 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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        Isn't half pay a Rupert thing? My understanding is that the Pensioners (OR)
        were not on half pay, they were discharged from the Army and became
        Out-Pensioners after an award made by the Medical Board of the Hospital this
        was then surrendered on ceasing to be out-pensioners when they entered the
        hospital. Your question is valid, but as I understand the situation that all
        pensioners kept their badges of rank even though they ceased to carry the
        ranks, so corporals wore two stripes even though they were not corporals in
        the hospital. One can reasonably assume that this would also applied to
        Pioneers.

        As to whether the In-Pensioners are "in" the Army I am not 100% sure.
        Certainly today I believe thay are are not subject to Queens Regulation and
        my understanding is that in our period they were discharged (that much is
        documented!) before being awarded their pension. It would seem likely
        therefore that they were not subject to the same Army Regulations and would
        have their own Hospital Rules.

        Neither of the paintings by Pyne or Hamilton-Smith show a hairsute
        pensioner, and Hamilton-Smith shows a one legged pensioner :-) I do have a
        picture of an elderly pensioner with a beard but cannot date it precisely,
        the uniform is no later than early Victorian (1840ish?). There continues to
        be the same problem relating to absolutism, the fact that something is not
        documented doesn't mean that it didn't exsist merely that it was not the
        norm. I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the
        purists would have us believe, especially in the case of overseas postings
        such as the Peninsula and Canada.

        However the reality of the situation cannot be proved either way.

        Cheers now.

        P**

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Larry Lozon [mailto:lalozon@...]
        Sent: 01 September 2004 20:50
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [WarOf1812] facial hair


        From: <suthren@...>

        My understanding is that facial hair in British service
        ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of
        the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
        pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.

        ------------------------

        Question:

        If the Chelsea Pensioners in 1812-1815 were in the British Army on
        half pay,
        would they not come under the Army Regulations of shaving every three days?

        I have not seen period images of Chelsea Pensioners with facial hair.

        Those more qualified with the Royal Warrants may want to answer my question.

        For those interested in this matter
        visit:
        http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk


        Yrs.,

        L2












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      • suthren@magma.ca
        Larry makes a good point. I cannot quote any image of Pensioners with facial hair, nor orders either for or against. Socially, beards were still associated
        Message 3 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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          Larry makes a good point. I cannot quote any image of Pensioners with facial
          hair, nor orders either for or against. Socially, beards were still
          associated with the identity of incarcerated lunatics or criminals, so it
          may be that the exclusion of facial hair as far as we are concerned (unless
          someone is nuts or a crook) should be universal. Probably means some lads
          will pack up their stuff and go home rather than shave---but we would look
          more like we are supposed to look. Problem is, some otherwise very fine
          re-enactors turn out with jarring full Crimean beards for 1812: how do we
          reason with these sterling chaps and get 'em to see the light---er, razor?
          Vic
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
          To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 3:50 PM
          Subject: [WarOf1812] facial hair


          > From: <suthren@...>
          >
          > My understanding is that facial hair in British service
          > ... could not be worn below a line from the corner of
          > the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
          > pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.
          >
          > ------------------------
          >
          > Question:
          >
          > If the Chelsea Pensioners in 1812-1815 were in the British Army on
          > half pay,
          > would they not come under the Army Regulations of shaving every three
          days?
          >
          > I have not seen period images of Chelsea Pensioners with facial hair.
          >
          > Those more qualified with the Royal Warrants may want to answer my
          question.
          >
          > For those interested in this matter
          > visit:
          > http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk
          >
          >
          > Yrs.,
          >
          > L2
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
          square miles...
          >
          > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > ---------------------------------
          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          >
          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Larry Lozon
          From: Peter Catley I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the purists would have us believe, especially in
          Message 4 of 10 , Sep 1, 2004
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            From: "Peter Catley" <peter.catley@...>



            I personally believe that facial hair was more common than the
            purists would have us believe, especially in the case of overseas postings
            such as the Peninsula and Canada.

            .............

            No Chelsea Pensioners in Canada or the Peninsula they were all adjacent
            to
            the River Thames in the pastoral setting of Chelsea.

            King Charles was determined to make provision for the soldiers on the
            English
            establishment and on 22nd December 1681 he issued a Royal Warrant
            authorising
            the building of the Royal Hospital.

            Therefore Royal Warrant and to answer Mr. Windsor's question, they
            maintained their
            army rank in the Royal Hospital Chelsea thus came under Warrant rules of the
            Army.

            From:

            http://www.chelsea-pensioners.org.uk/

            The term 'Chelsea Pensioner' has been used over the centuries to describe
            both 'In-' and 'Out-Pensioners'.
            An 'In-Pensioner' is simply one who resides in the Royal Hospital Chelsea.
            On entry, he surrenders his army
            pension. An Out-Pensioner is a former soldier of the Regular Army who
            receives a pension for long service
            and/or disability caused through service.

            The term derives from the period when the Royal Hospital was still being
            built. James II, who succeeded King Charles in 1685, made the first attempt
            to put Army pensions on a systematic basis in 1689. He decreed that a daily
            allowance should be made to all soldiers disabled by wounds or accidents,
            who had become unfit for service or who had served for 20 years.

            By the time the Royal Hospital opened there were more Pensioners than places
            available. Those that could not be offered a place were termed
            Out-Pensioners. In 1703 there were as few as 51. However, the increasing
            size of a standing army meant that the number of Out-Pensioners rose
            steadily - from 739 in 1708, to 14,700 in 1763 (after the Seven Years War)
            and 36,757 in 1815.

            The Royal Hospital remained responsible for all army pensions until 1955.

            Interesting ........
          • glifencible
            ... lunatics or criminals... ... light---er, razor? I don t think you can reason with lunatics or criminals! *ducking for cover*
            Message 5 of 10 , Sep 2, 2004
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              > beards were still associated with the identity of incarcerated
              lunatics or criminals...

              >how do we reason with these sterling chaps and get 'em to see the
              light---er, razor?

              I don't think you can reason with lunatics or criminals! *ducking for
              cover*
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