Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Authenticity question

Expand Messages
  • goidel@darksleep.com
    All- Since the topic has come up regarding facial hair, I ll ask a serious question which (hopefully) won t result in a flame war. It is my understanding,
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      All-
      Since the topic has come up regarding facial hair, I'll ask a serious
      question which (hopefully) won't result in a flame war. It is my
      understanding, from looking at some portraiture from the early 19th
      century as well as photos of Napoeonic reenactors in Europe, that the
      common / fashionable facial hair was sideburns, pushing into
      mutton-chops. In light of this, I have begun cultivating facial hair
      that, in about two more weeks, can be shaved and shaped into this.
      The question here is whether or not I am completely off-target with
      this. Any thoughts?

      Your servant,
      John Ogden
      17th US Infantry
    • suthren@magma.ca
      In 1808 units of the British army cut the traditional queue although it was retained in the Royal Navy for sometime thereafter. My understanding is that
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        In 1808 units of the British army cut the traditional 'queue' although it
        was retained in the Royal Navy for sometime thereafter. My understanding is
        that facial hair in British service at the time could not be worn below a
        line from the corner of the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
        pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners. Moustaches were also a mark of light
        cavalry but not otherwise worn. The "sideburns" were to be of the same
        length as the hair, and the latter to touch the collar but not go below it.

        A properly grown set of "sideburns" and correct hair length would help you
        have a correct and impressive look. Numbers of 1812 re-enactors do wear full
        beards, but it is, strictly speaking, incorrect to do so. It depends on the
        level of your commitment to accuracy, the same way grossly overweight
        re-enactors will sometimes diet and exercise their way to a more 'normal'
        appearance because of their desire to look actually like an 1812
        infantryman, rather than Billy Bunter Goes To War. Others are unconcerned
        about turning out as very heavy Light Infantry---or wearing inappropriate
        beards. It's your choice to make....

        You're on the right track, however. And welcome to an engrossing hobby.

        Yours aye
        Vic Suthren

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <goidel@...>
        To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:19 AM
        Subject: [WarOf1812] Authenticity question


        > All-
        > Since the topic has come up regarding facial hair, I'll ask a serious
        > question which (hopefully) won't result in a flame war. It is my
        > understanding, from looking at some portraiture from the early 19th
        > century as well as photos of Napoeonic reenactors in Europe, that the
        > common / fashionable facial hair was sideburns, pushing into
        > mutton-chops. In light of this, I have begun cultivating facial hair
        > that, in about two more weeks, can be shaved and shaped into this.
        > The question here is whether or not I am completely off-target with
        > this. Any thoughts?
        >
        > Your servant,
        > John Ogden
        > 17th US Infantry
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
        square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • goidel@darksleep.com
        Mr. Suthren & cie- Thank you for your response. Apparently I am on the right track here. Will use this as a guide in the shaping of said sideburns (which I
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Mr. Suthren & cie-
          Thank you for your response. Apparently I am on the right track
          here. Will use this as a guide in the shaping of said sideburns
          (which I realize is a term from the ACW).

          Yours,
          John Ogden

          > In 1808 units of the British army cut the traditional 'queue'
          > although it
          > was retained in the Royal Navy for sometime thereafter. My understanding
          > is
          > that facial hair in British service at the time could not be worn below a
          > line from the corner of the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
          > pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners. Moustaches were also a mark of light
          > cavalry but not otherwise worn. The "sideburns" were to be of
          > the same
          > length as the hair, and the latter to touch the collar but not go below
          > it.
          >
          > A properly grown set of "sideburns" and correct hair length
          > would help you
          > have a correct and impressive look. Numbers of 1812 re-enactors do wear
          > full
          > beards, but it is, strictly speaking, incorrect to do so. It depends on
          > the
          > level of your commitment to accuracy, the same way grossly overweight
          > re-enactors will sometimes diet and exercise their way to a more 'normal'
          > appearance because of their desire to look actually like an 1812
          > infantryman, rather than Billy Bunter Goes To War. Others are unconcerned
          > about turning out as very heavy Light Infantry---or wearing inappropriate
          > beards. It's your choice to make....
          >
          > You're on the right track, however. And welcome to an engrossing hobby.
          >
          > Yours aye
          > Vic Suthren
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From:
          > To:
          > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 11:19 AM
          > Subject: [WarOf1812] Authenticity question
          >
          >
          > > All-
          > > Since the topic has come up regarding facial hair, I'll ask a
          > serious
          > > question which (hopefully) won't result in a flame war. It is my
          > > understanding, from looking at some portraiture from the early 19th
          > > century as well as photos of Napoeonic reenactors in Europe, that the
          > > common / fashionable facial hair was sideburns, pushing into
          > > mutton-chops. In light of this, I have begun cultivating facial hair
          > > that, in about two more weeks, can be shaved and shaped into this.
          > > The question here is whether or not I am completely off-target with
          > > this. Any thoughts?
          > >
          > > Your servant,
          > > John Ogden
          > > 17th US Infantry
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
          > of
          > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
          > of
          > square miles...
          > >
          > > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          > >
          > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
          > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
          > THOUSANDS of square miles...
          >
          > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > ---------------------------------
          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          >
          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Peter Catley
          Thank you Vic! Cheers P*8 My understanding is that facial hair in British service at the time could not be worn below a line from the corner of the mouth to
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Thank you Vic!

            Cheers

            P*8

            My understanding is that facial hair in British service at the time could
            not be worn below a
            line from the corner of the mouth to the earlobe, with the exception of
            pioneers and Chelsea Pensioners.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • BritcomHMP@aol.com
            In a message dated 01/09/2004 11:00:56 Central Standard Time, suthren@magma.ca writes: Moustaches were also a mark of light cavalry but not otherwise worn.
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              In a message dated 01/09/2004 11:00:56 Central Standard Time,
              suthren@... writes:

              Moustaches were also a mark of light
              cavalry but not otherwise worn. The "sideburns" were to be of the same
              length as the hair, and the latter to touch the collar but not go below it.



              Actualy Vic it is Hussars that wear moustaches not Light Dragoons so not all
              light cavalry in British service, there is also a reference somewhere to the
              Scots Grays being permited to retain their moustaches (c1814 IIRC) so that is
              it. You are quite correct about the length of the sidewhiskers though prior
              to 1806 only officers, senior NCOs and the drum major were officialy permited
              to wear them (vide the 1803 rules for the Gibraltar garrison)

              Cheers

              Tim


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • suthren@magma.ca
              Thanks for correcting me, Tim. Vic ... From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 6:17 PM Subject: Re:
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks for correcting me, Tim.
                Vic
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: <BritcomHMP@...>
                To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 6:17 PM
                Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Authenticity question


                >
                > In a message dated 01/09/2004 11:00:56 Central Standard Time,
                > suthren@... writes:
                >
                > Moustaches were also a mark of light
                > cavalry but not otherwise worn. The "sideburns" were to be of the same
                > length as the hair, and the latter to touch the collar but not go below
                it.
                >
                >
                >
                > Actualy Vic it is Hussars that wear moustaches not Light Dragoons so not
                all
                > light cavalry in British service, there is also a reference somewhere to
                the
                > Scots Grays being permited to retain their moustaches (c1814 IIRC) so that
                is
                > it. You are quite correct about the length of the sidewhiskers though
                prior
                > to 1806 only officers, senior NCOs and the drum major were officialy
                permited
                > to wear them (vide the 1803 rules for the Gibraltar garrison)
                >
                > Cheers
                >
                > Tim
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                square miles...
                >
                > Unit Contact information for North America:
                > ---------------------------------
                > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                >
                > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Peter Catley
                Tim s considered response is the correct one officially permitted what we don t know and cannot know is the extent that variations were tolerated, either by
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 1, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tim's considered response is the correct one "officially permitted" what we
                  don't know and cannot know is the extent that variations were tolerated,
                  either by Regiments or even on overseas stations.

                  Cheers

                  P**

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: BritcomHMP@... [mailto:BritcomHMP@...]
                  Sent: 01 September 2004 23:17
                  To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Authenticity question



                  In a message dated 01/09/2004 11:00:56 Central Standard Time,
                  suthren@... writes:

                  Moustaches were also a mark of light
                  cavalry but not otherwise worn. The "sideburns" were to be of the same
                  length as the hair, and the latter to touch the collar but not go below it.



                  Actualy Vic it is Hussars that wear moustaches not Light Dragoons so not
                  all
                  light cavalry in British service, there is also a reference somewhere to the

                  Scots Grays being permited to retain their moustaches (c1814 IIRC) so that
                  is
                  it. You are quite correct about the length of the sidewhiskers though prior
                  to 1806 only officers, senior NCOs and the drum major were officialy
                  permited
                  to wear them (vide the 1803 rules for the Gibraltar garrison)

                  Cheers

                  Tim


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                  square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                  square miles...

                  Unit Contact information for North America:
                  ---------------------------------
                  Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                  http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                  American Forces Unit Lisiting
                  http://usforces1812.tripod.com



                  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

                  ADVERTISEMENT

                  <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129il2ega/M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=gr
                  oups/S=1705020536:HM/EXP=1094163453/A=2319498/R=0/SIG=11thfntfp/*http://www.
                  netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185352&partid=5285298> click here

                  <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S=
                  :HM/A=2319498/rand=272387133>


                  _____

                  Yahoo! Groups Links


                  * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/


                  * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>


                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                  In a message dated 02/09/2004 01:55:11 Central Standard Time, peter.catley@btinternet.com writes: Tim s considered response is the correct one officially
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In a message dated 02/09/2004 01:55:11 Central Standard Time,
                    peter.catley@... writes:

                    Tim's considered response is the correct one "officially permitted" what we
                    don't know and cannot know is the extent that variations were tolerated,
                    either by Regiments or even on overseas stations.





                    You are quite correct Peter, however there is one foreign station that we DO
                    have full details for and that is Gibralta 1803. Those regulations are
                    exactly what was enforced in the UK. We also know that the army in North America
                    (or at least the Peninsular vets) were most offended by Sir George Preevost's
                    insistance that all the dress regulations etc. be adhered to after being used
                    to Wellingtons idea that a clean weapon and a full amunition pouch was all
                    that was nessasary. Though it is certainly known that Wellington disliked
                    beards.

                    It depends what a soldier was doing as to wether some of these regulations
                    were followed and you can be certain that while they might have been ignored
                    during periods of fighting, the long periods of boredom would be filled with
                    shaving and mending.

                    BTW At the Grand Tactical Doug De Croix modeled his British Officer in the
                    Peninsula kit, absolutely splendid impression and virtualy not one item of
                    regulation kit in it. However one thing I always insisted on in the early days
                    of the NA (and still think aproprate today) is that the new recruit gets full
                    dress kit first, it has been my experience that if someone finds they can take
                    the field in a makeshift get up when they start they have no incentive to
                    get the other kit together. But that is a regimental call.

                    Cheers

                    Tim



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.