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RE: [WarOf1812] a proper sea

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  • Peter Catley
    Its still not the sea :-) ... From: BritcomHMP@aol.com [mailto:BritcomHMP@aol.com] Sent: 03 August 2004 22:48 To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 3, 2004
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      Its still not the sea :-)

      -----Original Message-----
      From: BritcomHMP@... [mailto:BritcomHMP@...]
      Sent: 03 August 2004 22:48
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] a proper sea




      In a message dated 03/08/2004 13:43:04 Central Standard Time,
      lalozon@... writes:


      Yur Grace would you be so kind as to translate from North
      American to UK'ian for him ......... :*)




      One can but try uncle Lar!
      After all Peter, if the place is big enough for RN Squadron and can have
      storms and shipwrecks the only thing under discussion here is nomenclature,

      after all there are inland seas that are a bit smaller as I recall.

      That said I recall the story of the Englishman visiting the US who was
      asked
      "what's it feel like to be a foreigner?" He replied "I'm not a foreigner,
      I'm an Englishman in a foreign country!"

      Absolutely sir!

      P**



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    • Peter Catley
      The last sentiment I join with! P** ... From: ray.hobbs@sympatico.ca [mailto:ray.hobbs@sympatico.ca] Sent: 03 August 2004 23:31 To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 3, 2004
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        The last sentiment I join with!

        P**
        -----Original Message-----
        From: ray.hobbs@... [mailto:ray.hobbs@...]
        Sent: 03 August 2004 23:31
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: Re: [WarOf1812] a proper sea



        For the record - the English Channel is about twice the size of Lake
        Ontario, which makes the latter big
        enough for the kinds of naval warfare that took place from 1812-1814.
        The figures of the naval engagements are favourably compared with the land
        battles in Upper Canada.
        In May/June of 1813 Vincent's "Centre Division" amounted to just over 1600
        men.

        Now, of course, it ain't salty. But it's damn unpredictable, as is its
        partner, Lake Erie. Witness the
        hundreds of wrecks around their shores.

        Interesting though - the US victory on Lake Erie, and the sort-of standstill
        on Lake Ontario did not result
        in US dominance on land in Upper Canada. 'Cept for one or two encounters,
        like York, Ft George and
        Chippawa, but IMHO they were not properly exploited. (I guess that makes
        three ;->))

        However, I raise a glass to all who fought on both sides for what they
        believed in. But, I lean towards
        His Majesty's cause.

        My musings.

        See many of you at Fort Erie this coming week-end.
        Yr H&OS
        Ray Hobbs
        CO 41st Regt
        HQ Hamilton, Ontario


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      • ebclemson
        Hey Ray, ... stand still on Lake Ontario did not result ... encounters, like York, Ft George and ... makes three ;- )) Dave: Skaggs and Altoff in their book
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 5, 2004
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          Hey Ray,


          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
          > Interesting though - the US victory on Lake Erie, and the sort-of
          stand still on Lake Ontario did not result
          > in US dominance on land in Upper Canada. 'Cept for one or two
          encounters, like York, Ft George and
          > Chippawa, but IMHO they were not properly exploited. (I guess that
          makes three ;->))

          Dave: Skaggs and Altoff in their book "Signal Victory" on page 153
          state that "For the American crews there was no rest; they
          immediately began refurbishing the ships of both squadrons and
          preparing to transport General Harrison's Northwestern Army across
          the lake. page 159 ".... Meanwhile the commodore refused to rest on
          his laurels. The whole purpose of winning lake Erie was to obtain a
          secure line of supply for General Harrison's Detroit
          campaign. ...Upon retaking Detroit and destroying British Indian
          resistance in southwestern Upper Canada at the battle of the Thames,
          Perry's squadron transferred elements of Harrison's army from the
          Detroit frontier to the Niagara frontier to augment the campaign in
          that theater."


          >
          > However, I raise a glass to all who fought on both sides for what
          they believed in. But, I lean towards
          > His Majesty's cause.
          Ray Hobbs
          > CO 41st Regt
          > HQ Hamilton, Ontario
          >

          Dave: Ray, I'll join you in that drink! and I lean towards
          Freedom's cause.

          Wish I could join you all at Fort Erie this year, but will be at the
          Grand national event next year.

          Cheers,
          Cap'n Dave
          1st U.States Infantry
        • ray.hobbs@sympatico.ca
          Dave: Thanks for the reference. A brief comment - such advantages as were gained at the Battle of Lake Erie are of no long term benefit unless they are fully
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 5, 2004
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            Dave:
            Thanks for the reference. A brief comment - such advantages as were gained at the Battle of Lake Erie
            are of no long term benefit unless they are fully exploited. As I recall from my reading, Harrison
            withdrew from Moraviantown to Detroit. Militia and some British regulars were active in the area
            thereafter.
            McArthur's and Campbell's raids did not accomplish very much, except a few bonfires. John Norton in
            his journal notes that the buildings McArthur burnt were replaced within a few months of his raid, and at
            a tiny fraction of the cost of bringing his troops the distance he did.
            It seems to me that if the US forces in late 1813 and then in early 1814 had pushed hard to Burlington
            Heights - something the British always feared - then the victory at sea (or lake) would have been a
            fitting prelude to the takeover of Upper Canada. The three most important roads in Upper Canada met
            within a mile of the Heights - [1] the road to York and Kingston, [2] the road to Brant's Ford and the
            Thames Valley, and the 'bread basket' of Norfolk County; [3] the road to Niagara and Forts George and
            Erie. Capture this link, and you control the western part of the Province.
            I wonder how little the US generals knew about the chaotic state of the British and the low state of their
            morale in and around Burlington Heights from October 1813. Their original plan was to retreat as far as
            Kingston at least, but preferably to Montreal and Quebec. The awful weather and the poor state of the
            roads held them at the Head of the Lake. Vincent complained that he had no water transport - the 'fleet'
            of batteaux he had would not float!!
            He also complained thst by the end of September 1813 all but a few of his staff were sick, and over half
            his army was sick. I am not saying they would have been a pushover, but if the US cards had been
            played right, who knows what might have happened after Lake Erie and Moraviantown.
            My two cents' worth
            Ray
            PS: Look forward to meeting you next year at the Grand Tactical.

            > From: "ebclemson" <ebclemson@...>
            > Date: 2004/08/05 Thu PM 09:35:07 EST
            > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] a proper sea
            >
            > Hey Ray,


            --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, <ray.hobbs@s...> wrote:
            > Interesting though - the US victory on Lake Erie, and the sort-of
            stand still on Lake Ontario did not result
            > in US dominance on land in Upper Canada.  'Cept for one or two
            encounters, like York,  Ft George and
            > Chippawa, but IMHO they were not properly exploited. (I guess that
            makes three ;->))

            Dave: Skaggs and Altoff in their book "Signal Victory" on page 153
            state that "For the American crews there was no rest; they
            immediately began refurbishing the ships of both squadrons and
            preparing to transport General Harrison's Northwestern Army across
            the lake.  page 159 ".... Meanwhile the commodore refused to rest on
            his laurels. The whole purpose of winning lake Erie was to obtain a
            secure line of supply for General Harrison's Detroit
            campaign.  ...Upon retaking Detroit and destroying British Indian
            resistance in southwestern Upper Canada at the battle of the Thames,
            Perry's squadron transferred elements of Harrison's army from the
            Detroit frontier to the Niagara frontier to augment the campaign in
            that theater."


            >
            > However, I raise a glass to all who fought on both sides for what
            they believed in. But, I lean towards
            > His Majesty's cause. 
            Ray Hobbs
            > CO 41st Regt
            > HQ Hamilton, Ontario
            >

            Dave:  Ray, I'll join you in that drink!  and I lean towards
            Freedom's cause.   

            Wish I could join you all at Fort Erie this year, but will be at the
            Grand national event next year.  

            Cheers,
            Cap'n Dave
            1st U.States Infantry



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