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Drill

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  • Sean
    Thank you Larry, for pointing out that the drill manual my unit uses is correct. (Although Tim pickles lists the 1807 manual as correct and my unit uses the
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 19, 1998
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      Thank you Larry, for pointing out that the drill manual my unit uses is
      correct. (Although Tim pickles lists the 1807 manual as correct and my unit
      uses the 1815 version.)

      Of course, I knew this, but I appreciate your efforts to help. What I was
      saying is that I have seen units come on the field and use different
      tactics never before seen in any manual I have perused and when you
      challenge them they say, Well we use this manual and since it was written
      in 1811 it must be correct.

      This is particularly noticable amongst light infantry units where there is
      a strong desire to incorporate rifle tactics in with regular light infantry
      tactics.

      Regimental tactics were dictated to the unit by the colonel and taught to
      the troops by the regimental sergeants. As long as a unit was able to
      function to the required standards of the period and fight as a part of the
      larger whole what was taught was generally excepted as reasonable. Taking
      into account differences in teaching styles and comprehension there was
      bound to be a degree of variance. These colonels and their clerks often
      wrote down what they taught and these notes eventually became manuals, each
      with there own idiosyncrasies and each very much excepted as correct.

      Sooooooo, Larry, what I'm saying is all of these manuals can be considered
      as correct. They were all written at or around the proper time, They were
      all used by active units in the Napoleonic era, and they were all
      considered to be the Kings all encompassing rules for engagement of the
      enemy...

      So do we tell these guys that they are wrong regardless of what proof they
      might have or do we operate like a real army of the time period would...
      with an exceptable amount of variation and a "the end justifies the means"
      attitude.



      Cpl. Sean Hirst
      Royal Newfoundland Reg't, Lt. Coy
      *********************************
      945-0591
    • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
      In a message dated 11/19/98 9:03:34 AM Central Standard Time, shirst@hca.mnsi.net writes:
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 19, 1998
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        In a message dated 11/19/98 9:03:34 AM Central Standard Time,
        shirst@... writes:

        << Thank you Larry, for pointing out that the drill manual my unit uses is
        correct. (Although Tim pickles lists the 1807 manual as correct and my unit
        uses the 1815 version.) >>

        Well Sean that's why the NA standardized on the 1807. After all the Peninsular
        army can hardly have had the 1815 manual to work from as the war ended in
        1813! I hope you were not taking me as implying that any other period manual
        was wrong. Indeed for the war of 1812 you are probably better off using the
        1815 as most of the innovations in it would probably have been in use by the
        end of that conflict. In any case I was referring to 'invented' drill rather
        than any variations in period manuals. Is just that for Napoleonic we thought
        1807 to be a better date to use as the standard.

        Having said that I do think that sometimes too much is made of the 'Colonels
        innovations'. The 18 'Damned maneuvers' existed for the purpose of the
        regiment being inspected. Although there might be some variation in the small
        stuff, the larger movements would be uniform, certainly in timing, so that
        units could be brigade together for a battles without having to have special
        drill instruction to do so. Also remember who was Governor in Canada at the
        time, do you think Prevost would have allowed much variation from regs?

        Cheers

        Tim
      • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
        ... Peninsular ... Here is just another bit of info on this subject which may - or may not - throw more oil on the water! The 93rd Highland Regiment was a VERY
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 19, 1998
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          In a message dated 19/11/1998 8:16:22 AM, Tim wrote:

          >shirst@... writes:
          >
          ><< Thank you Larry, for pointing out that the drill manual my unit uses is
          > correct. (Although Tim pickles lists the 1807 manual as correct and my unit
          > uses the 1815 version.) >>
          >
          >Well Sean that's why the NA standardized on the 1807. After all the
          Peninsular
          >army can hardly have had the 1815 manual to work from as the war ended in
          >1813! I hope you were not taking me as implying that any other period manual
          >was wrong. Indeed for the war of 1812 you are probably better off using the
          >1815 as most of the innovations in it would probably have been in use by the
          >end of that conflict. In any case I was referring to 'invented' drill rather
          >than any variations in period manuals. Is just that for Napoleonic we thought
          >1807 to be a better date to use as the standard.
          >
          >Having said that I do think that sometimes too much is made of the 'Colonels
          >innovations'. The 18 'Damned maneuvers' existed for the purpose of the
          >regiment being inspected. Although there might be some variation in the small
          >stuff, the larger movements would be uniform, certainly in timing, so that
          >units could be brigade together for a battles without having to have special
          >drill instruction to do so. Also remember who was Governor in Canada at the
          >time, do you think Prevost would have allowed much variation from regs?

          Here is just another bit of info on this subject which may - or may not -
          throw more oil on the water!
          The 93rd Highland Regiment was a VERY Gaelic unit. So much so, that even up
          through the 1850's certain NCO's were retained with an extra amount of pay to
          be translators in the Regiment, with this office especially being held for
          purposes of drill. A large percentage of Ranks in the 93rd spoke Gaelic as
          their native language and so had to be taught, by translation into English,
          the drill. In other words, when they heard such as, "By subdivisions on the
          left backwards wheel march", shouted at them in English, they had to know what
          it meant and what to do. It had to be in English because many officers, even
          the Scots, might not speak Gaelic, plus the fact officers would come in and
          out of Regiments frequently - especially with the purchase system - and many
          of these might be English, Welsh or Irish (and even Scots Gaelic does have its
          differences from the others).
          We should also not forget that along with the fact of often being brigaded
          with other regiments, quite often large or small "drafts" of Ranks from other
          regiments might be taken into one regiment for any number of reasons (it's
          being shipped overseas and needs to be brought quickly up to strength, it is
          going into a campaign and needs same, etc etc.).
          So what we have here is the necessity of a fairly standardized drill to teach
          these men so that they hear the same recognizable orders from any officer or
          NCO at any given time and place.
          2 cents
          Cheers!
          Benton
        • Larry Lozon
          A post was made, stating something to the effect to how many Crown Forces Units have regular drills year around ........ I know of 8th (KINGS) Regt - Toronto
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 1, 2003
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            A post was made, stating something to the effect
            to how many Crown Forces Units have regular
            drills year around ........

            I know of

            8th (KINGS) Regt - Toronto area
            41st Regt - Hamilton area
            Incorporated Militia of Upper Canada - Toronto area

            all of who schedule drills through the winter months,
            and I am also aware of the 8th and 41st conducting
            unit drills Saturday morning at events.

            any others?

            How bout the American Forces?

            I know the 1st and 7th drill religiously ......
          • Drums
            The Corps of Drums also practices regularly. ... From: Larry Lozon [mailto:lalozon@netrover.com] Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 1:54 PM To:
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 1, 2003
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              The Corps of Drums also practices regularly.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Larry Lozon [mailto:lalozon@...]
              Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 1:54 PM
              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [WarOf1812] Drill

              A post was made, stating something to the effect
              to how many Crown Forces Units have regular
              drills year around ........

              I know of

              8th (KINGS) Regt - Toronto area
              41st Regt - Hamilton area
              Incorporated Militia of Upper Canada - Toronto area

              all of who schedule drills through the winter months,
              and I am also aware of the 8th and 41st conducting
              unit drills Saturday morning at events.

              any others?

              How bout the American Forces?

              I know the 1st and 7th drill religiously ......















              The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
              of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
              THOUSANDS of square miles...

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              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • usmarine1814
              ... Us at USS COnstitution usually drill 2 times a month in the spr. sum. and fall when not busy on the ship and we are working on doing a couple of
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 2, 2003
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                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Drums" <drums1812@s...> wrote:
                > The Corps of Drums also practices regularly.
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Larry Lozon [mailto:lalozon@n...]
                > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 1:54 PM
                > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [WarOf1812] Drill
                >
                >
                > any others?
                >
                > How bout the American Forces?
                >
                > I know the 1st and 7th drill religiously ......
                >

                Us at USS COnstitution usually drill 2 times a month in the spr. sum.
                and fall when not busy on the ship and we are working on doing a
                couple of "discussion" (indoor) drills in the wintah. The only
                problemm is that through all our research, which I would say is
                extremely extensive, we have found no specified drill. ie. Duane,
                Smythe, Von Steuben ect. We have found a list of manouvers and the
                manual of arms the Marines were suposed to know but thats it. We
                know that when ever a ship was in port the Marines not on duty on
                board were to land and drill with the Marines in the Navy Yards. Yet
                our lack of manual has lead us to look awkward when manouvering with
                well drilled US units (sorry about that, we hope to get better. But
                let me see you guys climb ratlins or repel ignorant idiots from off
                of the 32lb carronades without them spiting on you). This all
                probobly stems from the fact that the Marines were suposed to be a
                ship board/Navy Yard guard and had no need to know the manuals for
                regiments and Battalions so we are probably historically accurate. I
                guess that if the Marines didn't have to go out every so often to
                offer some real resistance to the enemy, they never would have needed
                to know. J/K Soldiers and... ok... Militia too

                Fortitudine

                Colin Murphy
                Marines, USS Constitution














































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                > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                hundreds
                > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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