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Re: Fw: Privately Owned Rev War.War of 1812 Sites

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  • Scott Jeznach
    I just sent the same basic message to Brad: My experience with the National Park Service for the past twenty-five years has been for the most part negative.
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 29, 1999
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      I just sent the same basic message to Brad:

      My experience with the National Park Service for the past twenty-five years
      has been for the most part negative.

      The attitudes and bureacracy of the National Park Service has been hostile
      toward reenactors.

      Why would I want to identify good private sites who like and support
      reenactors to the National Park Service and risk losing a good site?

      Scott J.
      Royal Marines
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Roger Fuller <fullerfamily@...>
      To: warof1812@onelist.com <warof1812@onelist.com>
      Date: Thursday, July 29, 1999 8:41 AM
      Subject: [WarOf1812] Fw: Privately Owned Rev War.War of 1812 Sites


      >From: "Roger Fuller" <fullerfamily@...>
      >
      >Fellow 1812ers,
      >
      >Brad is a member of the AWI 23rd Royal Welch Fusiliers and works for the US
      >Congress. If anyone here can help him out, please contact him at the Email
      >address provided.
      >
      >Roger Fuller
      >3/95th Foot
      >
      >
      >>>From: BFinfr8265@...
      >>>
      >>>Hello folks,
      >>>
      >>>I am presently involved in a study of Revolutionary War and War of 1812
      >>sites for the Nat'l Govt. My task, at least for now, is to identify as
      many
      >>of the privately owned sites for the congressional board to review.
      >>>
      >>>With all the knowledge out there, please feel free to pass on your
      >favorite
      >>privately owned site whether it is a battle site, encampment, building,
      >>memorial, monument, iron foundry etc. Your help will greatly be
      >appreciated.
      >>>
      >>>Thanks,
      >>>Brad
      >>>23rd Foot
      >>
      >
      >
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    • Roger Fuller
      ... From: Scott Jeznach To: WarOf1812@onelist.com Date: 29 July 1999 08:50 Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Fw:
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 29, 1999
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        -----Original Message-----
        From: Scott Jeznach <scottj@...>
        To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
        Date: 29 July 1999 08:50
        Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Fw: Privately Owned Rev War.War of 1812 Sites


        >From: "Scott Jeznach" <scottj@...>
        >
        >I just sent the same basic message to Brad:
        >
        >My experience with the National Park Service for the past twenty-five years
        >has been for the most part negative.
        >
        >The attitudes and bureacracy of the National Park Service has been hostile
        >toward reenactors.
        >
        >Why would I want to identify good private sites who like and support
        >reenactors to the National Park Service and risk losing a good site?
        >
        >Scott J.
        >Royal Marines


        Scott,

        I agree with your opinion of the NPS re reenactments (Segments of the
        Concord/Lexington reenactments this year on NPS land at MinuteMan NHP here
        in Massachusetts were a cruel joke), but I think the gummint is trying to
        earmark sites for purchase. Maybe the NPS as custodian of any new sites can
        help keep them being turned into WalMarts or Disney theme parks. Better them
        in charge of the sites than others, although sometimes, not much better....

        Roger Fuller
      • Scott Jeznach
        Roger: I see your point regarding small sites that could be bought and razed. My experience here in the Chesapeake - Baltimore/Washington corridor is there are
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 29, 1999
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          Roger:

          I see your point regarding small sites that could be bought and razed.

          My experience here in the Chesapeake - Baltimore/Washington corridor is
          there are several sites here containing old mansions, etc. that were
          occupied by civilians during the War of 1812.

          Most of these are under the control of the county or Maryland State park
          system. The county sites are by and large reenactor friendly. Most of the
          state parks are also, but some are coming under the management of State Park
          rangers that apparently got their training from the National Park Gestapo.

          I can think of at least three sites which are privately owned. These were
          previously owned by well-to-do families who left endowments for their
          upkeep. They are also supported by "The Friends Of -----" staffs who give
          paid tours and promote fundraisers to pay for more upkeep.

          These sites receive our full support and help. At least once over the
          spring and summer we attend events either by ourselves or with other
          reenactors to bring attention and visitors to the site. At least once over
          the winter holiday season we return to add "color" to their Christmas open
          houses. These sites and their staffs bend over backwards to accomodate our
          few needs. It's a very good relationship, full of balance.

          It is these sites I would hate to bring to the National Parks' attention.
          To have these sites under the control of the anti-reenactor National Park
          Gestapo would break my heart.

          Scott J.
          Royal Marines
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Roger Fuller <fullerfamily@...>
          To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
          Date: Thursday, July 29, 1999 11:47 AM
          Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Fw: Privately Owned Rev War.War of 1812 Sites


          >From: "Roger Fuller" <fullerfamily@...>
          >
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: Scott Jeznach <scottj@...>
          >To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
          >Date: 29 July 1999 08:50
          >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Fw: Privately Owned Rev War.War of 1812 Sites
          >
          >
          >>From: "Scott Jeznach" <scottj@...>
          >>
          >>I just sent the same basic message to Brad:
          >>
          >>My experience with the National Park Service for the past twenty-five
          years
          >>has been for the most part negative.
          >>
          >>The attitudes and bureacracy of the National Park Service has been hostile
          >>toward reenactors.
          >>
          >>Why would I want to identify good private sites who like and support
          >>reenactors to the National Park Service and risk losing a good site?
          >>
          >>Scott J.
          >>Royal Marines
          >
          >
          >Scott,
          >
          >I agree with your opinion of the NPS re reenactments (Segments of the
          >Concord/Lexington reenactments this year on NPS land at MinuteMan NHP here
          >in Massachusetts were a cruel joke), but I think the gummint is trying to
          >earmark sites for purchase. Maybe the NPS as custodian of any new sites can
          >help keep them being turned into WalMarts or Disney theme parks. Better
          them
          >in charge of the sites than others, although sometimes, not much better....
          >
          >Roger Fuller
          >
          >
          >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
          >
          >ONElist: your connection to like-minds and kindred spirits.
          >
          >------------------------------------------------------------------------
          >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
          square miles...
          >
        • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
          I feel I have to butt in here on the NPS equals Nazis discourse going on, and merely state that broad generalizations are not necessarily the truth in all
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 29, 1999
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            I feel I have to butt in here on the "NPS equals Nazis" discourse going on,
            and merely state that broad generalizations are not necessarily the truth in
            all cases. Some individuals may have had bad experiences at one or more NPS
            sites, and granted the NPS does indeed make it hard on reenactors with all
            the government red tape to wade through, but this does not mean every site is
            "ruined" nor that all NPS staff are ogres.

            Case in point - Chalmette National Historic Battlefield. (Never been there
            you say? Well, don't get me started on THAT again!) Every January since 1989
            myself and the 93rd SHRoFLHU as well as a number of other units including the
            7th US Infantry, have made the trek to Chalmette for the Battle of New
            Orleans living history program. The event this past January was probably from
            the standpoint of NPS cooperation, staff friendliness, helpfulness and
            appreciation, the best event there to date. And this is not because past
            years were bad. On the contrary! Over the years by OUR helpfulness and
            cooperation and appreciation the staff at Chalmette has grown to know how to
            work with us and take care of us. And this even with staff changes over the
            years (there may not be any working there at present who were there 10 years
            ago).

            There is an old saying -- "You get out of something what you put into it."
            In other words; go looking for a bad time, you will have a bad time. Go
            expecting to be entertained and acting like some prima donna, you will have a
            bad time. Bad mouth folk behind their backs -- you'll get the same in return,
            and don't act high and mighty when it happens to you! Go with a spirit of
            cooperation, be on friendly terms with all there and have a zeal to do
            whatever you can to help make an event the best it can be, ....maybe it will
            actually happen. (And maybe folk will be glad to see you too...).

            I ain't perfect, no one has to point that out to me, but...If the shoe fits...

            Cheers!
            B
            http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd
            THE Thin Red Line
          • Easeufe@aol.com
            Not to disagree with anyone about sites, their takeover/destruction/preservation and the NPS, but could we be seeing the initial action of the Senate passed
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 29, 1999
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              Not to disagree with anyone about sites, their
              takeover/destruction/preservation and the NPS, but could we be seeing the
              initial action of the Senate passed bill to create an 1812 Trail in Maryland?

              Ed
              Royal marines
            • Scott Jeznach
              Benton: Thank you for your comments regarding the NPS. I m glad you and your unit have a mutually satisfying association in New Orleans. They do seem to be
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 30, 1999
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                Benton:

                Thank you for your comments regarding the NPS. I'm glad you and your unit
                have a mutually satisfying association in New Orleans. They do seem to be
                an anomally of cooperation down there.

                Yet, I can't help but wonder how many Bicentennial events you attended on
                National Park property. I attended most of them to say I was there, but
                sometimes I wish I hadn't. The park rangers at these events were obnoxious
                and condescending. At some times, they were power hungry bullies, always
                demanding cooperation from us, but giving nothing in return. Because of
                that, I make it a point not to attend events on National Parks, period. I
                am not alone in this principle.

                Anyone who knows me knows I do not talk behind people's backs. If I feel
                anyone running an event is taking advantage of me or other members of my
                unit, Park Ranger or otherwise, I politely let them know. If I feel I'm
                still not getting cooperation, I leave the event. To avoid stress on my
                part, I just don't attend NPS events.

                Scott J.
                Royal Marines
                -----Original Message-----
                From: NINETY3RD@... <NINETY3RD@...>
                To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
                Date: Thursday, July 29, 1999 6:21 PM
                Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Fw: Privately Owned Rev War.War of 1812 Sites


                >From: NINETY3RD@...
                >
                >I feel I have to butt in here on the "NPS equals Nazis" discourse going on,
                >and merely state that broad generalizations are not necessarily the truth
                in
                >all cases. Some individuals may have had bad experiences at one or more NPS
                >sites, and granted the NPS does indeed make it hard on reenactors with all
                >the government red tape to wade through, but this does not mean every site
                is
                >"ruined" nor that all NPS staff are ogres.
                >
                >Case in point - Chalmette National Historic Battlefield. (Never been there
                >you say? Well, don't get me started on THAT again!) Every January since
                1989
                >myself and the 93rd SHRoFLHU as well as a number of other units including
                the
                >7th US Infantry, have made the trek to Chalmette for the Battle of New
                >Orleans living history program. The event this past January was probably
                from
                >the standpoint of NPS cooperation, staff friendliness, helpfulness and
                >appreciation, the best event there to date. And this is not because past
                >years were bad. On the contrary! Over the years by OUR helpfulness and
                >cooperation and appreciation the staff at Chalmette has grown to know how
                to
                >work with us and take care of us. And this even with staff changes over the
                >years (there may not be any working there at present who were there 10
                years
                >ago).
                >
                >There is an old saying -- "You get out of something what you put into it."
                >In other words; go looking for a bad time, you will have a bad time. Go
                >expecting to be entertained and acting like some prima donna, you will have
                a
                >bad time. Bad mouth folk behind their backs -- you'll get the same in
                return,
                >and don't act high and mighty when it happens to you! Go with a spirit of
                >cooperation, be on friendly terms with all there and have a zeal to do
                >whatever you can to help make an event the best it can be, ....maybe it
                will
                >actually happen. (And maybe folk will be glad to see you too...).
                >
                >I ain't perfect, no one has to point that out to me, but...If the shoe
                fits...
                >
                >Cheers!
                >B
                >http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd
                >THE Thin Red Line
                >
                >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
                >
                >Show your ONElist SPIRIT!
                >http://www.onelist.com/store/tshirts.html
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                >
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------
                >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                square miles...
                >
              • NINETY3RD@xxx.xxx
                ... Oh I can certainly believe it, I have met the type -- and not just at NPS sites wearing Ranger uniforms either.... ;-) In fact, early on at Chalmette we
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 30, 1999
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                  In a message dated 30/7/1999 5:49:30 AM, scottj@... writes:

                  >The park rangers at these events were obnoxious
                  >
                  >and condescending. At some times, they were power hungry bullies, always
                  >
                  >demanding cooperation from us, but giving nothing in return.


                  Oh I can certainly believe it, I have met the type -- and not just at NPS
                  sites wearing Ranger uniforms either....
                  ;-)

                  In fact, early on at Chalmette we had one or 2 of the type at one time or
                  another in one form or another. Sometimes, it's not really the person, it's
                  the "bean counter" mentality (as Wellington would have said) that has been
                  handed down to them by all the forms-in-triplicate and other such government
                  mickey mouse ways of running things. We had one such "b-counter", who is
                  actually a nice guy when not counting the beans, saying a bunch of "you can't
                  do this and that...and.. if you want to be invited back" stuff to our Sgt. in
                  one of the first years. Our sergeant looked at him and said, "Fine. You see
                  all these Brit soldiers? All this camp? And that all of this traveled at
                  least 9 hours or more without any return compensation just to be here? Keep
                  acting just like that and NONE of this will be here next year or any other
                  year, 'cause we all have better places we can go without being treated like
                  dirt." The fellow shut his mouth, and never mentioned anything like it
                  again. For that matter, no one else there ever has either.

                  Of course, sometimes you get lucky....

                  Cheers
                  B
                  http://hometown.aol.com/ninety3rd
                  THE Thin Red Line
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