Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Military anachronisms in "The Passion"

Expand Messages
  • ray.hobbs@sympatico.ca
    List Apart from the other fuss raised by Mel Gibson s latest venture, did anyone notice the anachronisms with the military uniforms? In the movie Roman
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 27, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      List
      Apart from the other fuss raised by Mel Gibson's latest venture, did anyone notice the anachronisms
      with the military uniforms?
      In the movie Roman soldiers in Jerusalem (an extreme eastern outpost) in AD 33 were wearing
      uniforms more typical of the late 1st and early 2nd century. In the time of Jesus, most Roman
      legionaires would be wearing chain mail, and many using rounded shields. The plate armour and
      square shields were introduced in the second half of the 1st century, and were very common in Trajan's
      army by the beginning of the second century.
      To make a suitable comparison, it is like having 1812 British redcoats dressed as though they were
      fighting the Afghan Wars. Hollywood don't get it. I suspect these uniforms were "in stock", and left overs
      from "The Robe" or something.
      Who else would notice, and who else cares?
      Ray Hobbs
      CO 41st Regt
      Hamilton, Ont.
    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
      ... I think you are right in your assessment of where the uniforms came from. In cinema terms this film did not have a big budget (25m) and being filmed in
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 28, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 2/27/04 1:41:46 PM, ray.hobbs@... writes:


        > In the time of Jesus, most Roman
        > legionaires would be wearing chain mail, and many using rounded shields. The
        > plate armour and
        > square shields were introduced in the second half of the 1st century, and
        > were very common in Trajan's
        > army by the beginning of the second century.
        > To make a suitable comparison, it is like having 1812 British redcoats
        > dressed as though they were
        > fighting the Afghan Wars. Hollywood don't get it. I suspect these uniforms
        > were "in stock", and left overs
        > from "The Robe" or something.
        >

        I think you are right in your assessment of where the uniforms came from. In
        cinema terms this film did not have a big budget (25m) and being filmed in
        Italy I am sure all the uniforms were stock items from cinecitta. However I have
        to say if the uniforms made that much of an impression on you, you missed a
        superb movie!

        Cheers,

        Tim



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • ray.hobbs@sympatico.ca
        ... Oh, not just the uniforms, Tim. The languages - Pilate speaking in Medieval ecclesiastical Latin, and addressing the crowd in the same. The assumption that
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 28, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          >
          > From: BritcomHMP@...
          > Date: 2004/02/28 Sat AM 10:02:41 EST
          > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Military anachronisms in "The Passion"
          >
          Oh, not just the uniforms, Tim. The languages - Pilate speaking in Medieval ecclesiastical Latin, and
          addressing the crowd in the same. The assumption that Aramaic was the lingua franca of the region - it
          was most probably Koine (Common) Greek. Vast numbers of manuscripts (business and literary) from
          the period - even the Gospels themselves - were written in this language. The academic jury is still out
          as to whether Jesus spoke Aramaic or Greek. The only recorded words we have are in the latter.
          I will not comment on the religious perspective of the movie - as our mess rules state -

          5. No discussion of politics, religion or females may be had in the MESS as this tends to flame the
          person and leads to affairs of honour.

          With kind regards
          Ray

          However I have
          to say if the uniforms made that much of an impression on you, you missed a
          superb movie!

          Cheers,

          Tim



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Louis R. Koerner, Jr.
          The language of the New Testament is Koine Greek. However, there is very persuasive evidence in the Gospels that Jesus spoke, at least some of the time, in
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 28, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            The language of the New Testament is Koine Greek. However, there is very
            persuasive evidence in the Gospels that Jesus spoke, at least some of the
            time, in Aramaic because he is quoted a number of different times with the
            Aramaic or possibly Hebrew. Also, there are some names which are translated
            from Aramaic or Hebrew into Greek which indicates that the reference only
            make sense if Jesus was actually speaking in Hebrew or an Hebraic language.



            Best regards, Louis



            _____

            From: ray.hobbs@... [mailto:ray.hobbs@...]
            Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2004 11:33 AM
            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: Re: [WarOf1812] Military anachronisms in "The Passion"



            >
            > From: BritcomHMP@...
            > Date: 2004/02/28 Sat AM 10:02:41 EST
            > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Military anachronisms in "The Passion"
            >
            Oh, not just the uniforms, Tim. The languages - Pilate speaking in Medieval
            ecclesiastical Latin, and
            addressing the crowd in the same. The assumption that Aramaic was the lingua
            franca of the region - it
            was most probably Koine (Common) Greek. Vast numbers of manuscripts
            (business and literary) from
            the period - even the Gospels themselves - were written in this language.
            The academic jury is still out
            as to whether Jesus spoke Aramaic or Greek. The only recorded words we have
            are in the latter.
            I will not comment on the religious perspective of the movie - as our mess
            rules state -

            5. No discussion of politics, religion or females may be had in the
            MESS as this tends to flame the
            person and leads to affairs of honour.

            With kind regards
            Ray

            However I have
            to say if the uniforms made that much of an impression on you, you missed a
            superb movie!

            Cheers,

            Tim



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
            square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
            square miles...

            Unit Contact information for North America:
            ---------------------------------
            Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

            American Forces Unit Lisiting
            http://usforces1812.tripod.com




            _____

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            * To visit your group on the web, go to:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

            * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            <mailto:WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

            * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
            <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ray.hobbs@sympatico.ca
            Since this is now going way beyond the War of 1812, I will respond to Louis off-list. Ray Hobbs 41st Regt ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 28, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Since this is now going way beyond the War of 1812, I will respond to Louis off-list.
              Ray Hobbs
              41st Regt

              > From: "Louis R. Koerner, Jr." <louis@...>
              > Date: 2004/02/28 Sat PM 01:26:30 EST
              > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: RE: Re: [WarOf1812] Military anachronisms in "The Passion"
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
              ... Well Ray I am not quite sure what that last remark is meant to imply, but as you yourself say the jury is still out on what languages were spoken at the
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 28, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 2/28/04 11:35:35 AM, ray.hobbs@... writes:


                > Oh, not just the uniforms, Tim. The languages - Pilate speaking in Medieval
                > ecclesiastical Latin, and
                > addressing the crowd in the same. The assumption that Aramaic was the lingua
                > franca of the region - it
                > was most probably Koine (Common) Greek. Vast numbers of manuscripts
                > (business and literary) from
                > the period - even the Gospels themselves - were written in this language.
                > The academic jury is still out
                > as to whether Jesus spoke Aramaic or Greek. The only recorded words we have
                > are in the latter.
                > I will not comment on the religious perspective of the movie - as our mess
                > rules state -
                >
                > 5.    No discussion of politics, religion or females may be had in the MESS
                > as this tends to flame the
                > person and leads to affairs of honour.
                >
                >

                Well Ray I am not quite sure what that last remark is meant to imply, but as
                you yourself say the jury is still out on what languages were spoken at the
                time so I supose (not wishing to wait untill the jury comes in) Mel just made a
                judgement call as director. Frankly as my Latin (poor as it is) is better than
                my non existant Greek I am glad that he did so!

                Again (and trying to get back to our period) I think to critcise the movie on
                these points is rather like critcising 'The Madness of King George' on the
                (admitedly abysmal) costuming, it is to miss the meat of a great movie.

                Cheers,

                Tim




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kevin & Allison Windsor
                Yet Master and Commander was quite ripped apart?
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 28, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yet Master and Commander was quite ripped apart?

                  BritcomHMP@... wrote:

                  > Again (and trying to get back to our period) I think to critcise the movie on
                  > these points is rather like critcising 'The Madness of King George' on the
                  > (admitedly abysmal) costuming, it is to miss the meat of a great movie.
                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                  ... Yes, because the meat of M&C WAS the detail, this is what people enjoyed about the O Brien books and what we were promised with the movie. It was a good
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 28, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    In a message dated 2/28/04 7:39:56 PM, kevin.windsor@... writes:


                    > Yet Master and Commander was quite ripped apart?
                    >

                    Yes, because the 'meat' of M&C WAS the detail, this is what people enjoyed
                    about the O'Brien books and what we were promised with the movie. It was a good
                    movie, but it set itself up for criticism by claiming to be so accurate.
                    The 'meat' of 'The Passion' and 'The Madness of King George' was the story; I
                    recall thinking 'Jefferson in Paris' was beautifully detailed but the scenery
                    was more interesting than the story.

                    Another little point on that that struck me the other day was that while in M&
                    C Aubrey dismasted a ship using roundshot, Pirates of the Caribbean showed
                    the operation done with chainshot. It would have been nice to see chain or bar
                    in M&C.

                    Cheers

                    Tim



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ray.hobbs@sympatico.ca
                    Tim: I made no comment on the story line, production, cinematography of the movie. Nor did I say whether I appreciated it or not. That would be for a complete
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 29, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tim:
                      I made no comment on the story line, production, cinematography of the movie. Nor did I say whether I
                      appreciated it or not. That would be for a complete different chat group.I thought it appropriate to
                      comment on military matters, and when prompted, on the language. Nothing more, nothing less.
                      Best regards
                      Ray

                      > From: BritcomHMP@...
                      > Date: 2004/02/28 Sat PM 05:38:05 EST
                      > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Military anachronisms in "The Passion"
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                      ... Ray: You asked me why I thought that some anachronisms were acceptable on one film and not the other, In explainging my thinking I mentioned the story,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 29, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In a message dated 2/29/04 11:35:25 AM, ray.hobbs@... writes:


                        > Tim:
                        > I made no comment on the story line, production, cinematography of the
                        > movie. Nor did I say whether I
                        > appreciated it or not. That would be for a complete different chat group.I
                        > thought it appropriate to
                        > comment on military matters, and when prompted, on the language. Nothing
                        > more, nothing less.
                        > Best regards
                        > Ray
                        >

                        Ray:

                        You asked me why I thought that some anachronisms were acceptable on one film
                        and not the other, In explainging my thinking I mentioned the story, because
                        it is, in my view, relevent.
                        As far as the language is concerned the jury is most certainly out. Watching
                        THC last night where they were showing a slew of Holy Land stuff one expert
                        said that the 'Gospel of Thomas' ,which some claim to be the earliest extant
                        writings, could not be that old because they are in Greek not Aramaic, and locals
                        always used Aramaic in speaking to each other and in writings.

                        However we DO know that RN officers did not wonder about looking like unmade
                        beds, that certain mess etiquet was followed, that the HQ North American
                        Station had a full dockyard etc. and that crews of RN ships were not quite 'all
                        mates together'. That is all well documented and researchable, and as I said,
                        that was what the movie was about. As Vic said so well 'so near and yet so far'.

                        Kindest regards,

                        Tim



                        Timothy Pickles
                        1100 Rue Chartres
                        New Orleans
                        Louisiana 70116
                        Tel & Fax: 504 522 4822
                        Mobile: 504 236 7130



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ray.hobbs@sympatico.ca
                        Tim: I made no request to compare movies. That was, I recall, Kevin Windsor, of the 89th. regards Ray ... Ray: You asked me why I thought that some
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 29, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Tim:
                          I made no request to compare movies. That was, I recall, Kevin Windsor, of the 89th.
                          regards
                          Ray

                          > From: BritcomHMP@...
                          > Date: 2004/02/29 Sun PM 01:05:30 EST
                          > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Military anachronisms in "The Passion"
                          >
                          > > Tim:
                          > I made no comment on the story line, production, cinematography of the
                          > movie. Nor did I say whether I
                          > appreciated it or not. That would be for a complete different chat group.I
                          > thought it appropriate to
                          > comment on military matters, and when prompted, on the language. Nothing
                          > more, nothing less.
                          > Best regards
                          > Ray
                          >

                          Ray:

                          You asked me why I thought that some anachronisms were acceptable on one film
                          and not the other, In explainging my thinking I mentioned the story, because
                          it is, in my view, relevent.
                          As far as the language is concerned the jury is most certainly out. Watching
                          THC last night where they were showing a slew of Holy Land stuff one expert
                          said that the 'Gospel of Thomas' ,which some claim to be the earliest extant
                          writings, could not be that old because they are in Greek not Aramaic, and locals
                          always used Aramaic in speaking to each other and in writings.

                          However we DO know that RN officers did not wonder about looking like unmade
                          beds, that certain mess etiquet was followed, that the HQ North American
                          Station had a full dockyard etc. and that crews of RN ships were not quite 'all
                          mates together'. That is all well documented and researchable, and as I said,
                          that was what the movie was about. As Vic said so well 'so near and yet so far'.

                          Kindest regards,

                          Tim   



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Kevin & Allison Windsor
                          That is correct Ray. Didn t request a comparison but merely an explanation. Here it goes. you have said the language was wrong and the uniforms are at least
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 29, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            That is correct Ray. Didn't request a comparison but merely an explanation. Here it goes.
                            you have said the language was wrong and the uniforms are at least 100 years off the mark.
                            Tim states that's okay because the story is good.
                            M&C makes some mistakes and learned list tears it apart even down to round shot vs chain. Now I know feelings run deep on this and some feel that they were stabbed in
                            the back, betrayed, kick in the !@#$!, whatever, but...please let us use the same set of guidelines for analysing movies done by those we like or by historical
                            consultants we like and by those we don't or don't anymore. If you can forgive the Passion for being 100 years out of date on something as simple as a uniform because it
                            was a great story you can surely forgive M&C for using a round shot and not a chain because of the equally great story (I suspect since I still haven't seen either!)

                            Thought for this....

                            Kevin (who still considers the historical consultant of M&C and those who were bidding to be consultants his friends)

                            ray.hobbs@... wrote:

                            > Tim:
                            > I made no request to compare movies. That was, I recall, Kevin Windsor, of the 89th.
                            > regards
                            > Ray
                            >
                          • petemonahan@aol.com
                            Well said, Captain Windsor, sir! Fair does. I agree with both sentiments: same standards for all & hoping to claim all involved as friends. P Monahan
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Well said, Captain Windsor, sir! "Fair does." I agree with both sentiments: same standards for all & hoping to claim all involved as friends.


                              P Monahan
                              petemonahan@... / pmonahan@...
                              705-435-0953 / 905-936-4743
                            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                              ... Sorry Ray, I thought you asked why I thought anachronisms were unacceptable in M&C but ok in The Passion. But the reason remains the same. Kindest regards,
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                In a message dated 2/29/04 12:56:27 PM, ray.hobbs@... writes:


                                > Tim:
                                > I made no request to compare movies. That was, I recall, Kevin Windsor, of
                                > the 89th.
                                > regards
                                > Ray
                                >

                                Sorry Ray, I thought you asked why I thought anachronisms were unacceptable
                                in M&C but ok in The Passion.

                                But the reason remains the same.

                                Kindest regards,

                                Tim



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                                ... Kevin: All I can say is to repeat what I said to Ray when I was under the mistaken impression that he, rather than you, asked the question. When you
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  In a message dated 2/29/04 5:28:57 PM, kevin.windsor@... writes:


                                  > If you can forgive the Passion for being 100 years out of date on something
                                  > as simple as a uniform because it
                                  > was a great story you can surely forgive M&C for using a round shot and not
                                  > a chain because of the equally great story (I suspect since I still haven't
                                  > seen either!)
                                  >

                                  Kevin:

                                  All I can say is to repeat what I said to Ray when I was under the mistaken
                                  impression that he, rather than you, asked the question. When you actualy see M&
                                  C I think you will see what I am getting at. The story is not that
                                  complicated, in fact the plot could be written on the back of a postcard, the great
                                  thing about the film was the detail, and the publicity emphasised this. All the
                                  more reason then that when glairing anacronisms apeared they were like being
                                  doused in cold water.

                                  As for the other kind of story, the best histotical one in this vein is (in
                                  my opinion) the 1968 'The Charge of the Light Brigade'. The 'anachronisms'
                                  abounded but they allowed a story that covered about 10 years to be told in a
                                  short time and by the time the 'charge' took place we had virtualy everyones
                                  backstory in place. The only unacceptable thing about the film for me were uniform
                                  changes instited on by the director.

                                  Cheers,

                                  Tim



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dancingbobd@webtv.net
                                  Guys, I know that just hitting reply is so easy. PLEASE take this endless argument about movies OFF OF THIS LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enough already. Bob
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Mar 1, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Guys,

                                    I know that just hitting reply is so easy. PLEASE take this endless
                                    argument about movies OFF OF THIS LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                                    Enough already.

                                    Bob Dorian
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.