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Re: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?

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  • PEGGY MATHEWS
    Well yes Vic, our internal southern hawks vs. the New England profiteers is well known. But that isn t part of British foreign policy. I m just surprised
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 2, 2004
      Well yes Vic, our internal southern "hawks" vs. the New England profiteers is well known. But that isn't part of British foreign policy. I'm just surprised that the government had so little influence over the British banking system that they would finance a land deal that was contrary to the current agenda. i.e. Aiding Bonaparte, allowing growth in the former colonies, and removing vulnerable French possessions.

      It seems like the navy and army were fond of capturing isolated French (or whomever they were currently fighting) colonies for profit, removing privateer bases, and morale building.

      If as Peter says it's just business as usual, it seems somewhat akin to say, Donald Trump openly loaning money to Al-Quida for purchase of Stinger ground to air missiles.

      Regards,
      Michael Mathews
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: suthren@...
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 7:31 AM
      Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?


      Dear Michael

      From what I know of the War of 1812 American business was not particularly
      happy with 'Mr. Madison's War', as some called it. As the war ground on,
      there was a very real secessionist movement in New England that threatened
      to have the young republic split right down the Champlain/Hudson corridor.
      The New Englanders got along fine with the Canadians to their north and were
      suffering badly as the RN slowly shut down the American seaboard and
      strangled the economy, which had been doing just fine as the British,
      grappling with Napoleon, needed to buy American goods. Albert Gallatin
      warned the President that the nation was approaching bankruptcy, and the
      British army in Upper and Lower Canada (Quebec and Ontario) and the Canadian
      militia marched very often in American shoes (sold for a fine profit) and
      ate Vermont beef, which was driven across the border in a regular cattle
      drive by the Vermont farmers. At least one serious skirmish between the
      Vermonters and US troops sent to stop this trade took place. Support for the
      war seemed to be the highest in the West, where the 'War Hawks' wanted the
      development of the Ohio/Indiana/Michigan lands to be unfettered by Indian
      resistance led by Tecumseh and his brother, The Prophet; and lowest in New
      England (even with British impressment of American seamen being an
      issue)where a clandestine trade with their Canadian friends went on in spite
      of Washington. The War Hawks got their wish of removing Tecumseh and
      smashing the warrior resistance when the Kentuckians under Harrison won at
      Moraviantown in Canada in 1813, but that was a rare victory in Canada;
      Canada was not Mexico of the 1840s, and Congress became tired of hearing of
      yet another army being sent north (under Hull, or Dearborn, or Wilkinson, or
      Hampton) to defeat at the hands of the British and Canadians. The solid
      American naval victories at Put-in Bay and Plattsburg, the defense of New
      Orleans, and the single-ship successes of the USN's frigates that did manage
      to slide out past the RN blockade, added to British desires of calming
      things down to give America a sense of some success in the war, even though
      the national defense had essentially collapsed, and the national capital
      city had been taken. Geography and numbers helped a lot (the Duke of
      Wellington rightly said, as he looked at the vast sweep of America, that it
      was essentially unconquerable, and aren't we glad he was right). But
      business hadn't been happy about the war, and did its best to either ignore
      it or go around it.

      Yours aye

      Vic Suthren

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Peter Catley <peter.catley@...>
      To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:58 AM
      Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?


      > During the Napoleonic wars the shoemakers of Northampton (and others)
      sold
      > their wares to both sides. In a genuine free enterprise economy the
      > governments have relatively limited influence on trade and economy.
      >
      >
      >
      > The answer to the question is you cannot let politics and war get in the
      way
      > of profit, look at the whole Continental blockade policy of the Emperor
      > honoured more in the breach than the observance..
      >
      >
      >
      > Cheers
      >
      >
      >
      > P**
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: PEGGY MATHEWS [mailto:ciefranche21e@...]
      > Sent: 02 February 2004 03:12
      > To: 1812elist
      > Subject: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
      >
      >
      >
      > I was watching the videotape of the broadcast of the bicentennial ceremony
      > at New Orleans last December (thanks Joe!) and the comment was made that
      > British bankers loaned the infant United States the 15 million dollars to
      > make purchase since the country didn't have that kind of money. So
      assuming
      > this is correct, and some comments by the commentators weren't, was
      Britain
      > so very unconcerned by the land deal or couldn't they control the banks?
      >
      > It would seem to be contrary to national interests to see Republican
      France
      > get the money, and the United States gain territory that put them in
      > immediate conflict with British interests. Since arguably the land deal
      > contributed to the outbreak of the War of 1812 (my tenuous connection to
      the
      > list), why did it occur?
      >
      > Inquiring minds want to know.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Michael Mathews
      >
      >
      > Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. The Dali Lama
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
      > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
      of
      > square miles...
      >
      > Unit Contact information for North America:
      > ---------------------------------
      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      >
      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
      >
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      >
      >
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
      square miles...
      >
      > Unit Contact information for North America:
      > ---------------------------------
      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      >
      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >


      The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

      Unit Contact information for North America:
      ---------------------------------
      Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

      American Forces Unit Lisiting
      http://usforces1812.tripod.com

      Yahoo! Groups Links

      To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • suthren@magma.ca
      Dear Michael Thanks for your good note. My understanding was that British financial and banking interests, and British commerce generally, were in fact anxious
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 2, 2004
        Dear Michael

        Thanks for your good note. My understanding was that British financial and
        banking interests, and British commerce generally, were in fact anxious for
        the United States to grow and do well; it was a potentially vast market, was
        a vital supplier of raw materials and other goods for the booming British
        industrial revolution, and was a cousin nation with which political
        disagreements were seen as transitory and not fundamentally antagonistic.
        Support for the war was weak in Parliament, and the natural alliance and
        common interests of Britain and America were always bubbling up to the
        surface in spite of saber-rattling jingoists. Getting the French out of
        America meant reducing the long-term resources of the true enemy. The Brits
        knew the French would spend America's borrowed purchase price in a month,
        and in the long term knew supporting Jonathan and his new republic was in
        Britain's best interests---as history since then has revealed to be true.

        Yours aye

        Vic

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: PEGGY MATHEWS <ciefranche21e@...>
        To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:26 AM
        Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?


        > Well yes Vic, our internal southern "hawks" vs. the New England profiteers
        is well known. But that isn't part of British foreign policy. I'm just
        surprised that the government had so little influence over the British
        banking system that they would finance a land deal that was contrary to the
        current agenda. i.e. Aiding Bonaparte, allowing growth in the former
        colonies, and removing vulnerable French possessions.
        >
        > It seems like the navy and army were fond of capturing isolated French (or
        whomever they were currently fighting) colonies for profit, removing
        privateer bases, and morale building.
        >
        > If as Peter says it's just business as usual, it seems somewhat akin to
        say, Donald Trump openly loaning money to Al-Quida for purchase of Stinger
        ground to air missiles.
        >
        > Regards,
        > Michael Mathews
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: suthren@...
        > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 7:31 AM
        > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
        >
        >
        > Dear Michael
        >
        > From what I know of the War of 1812 American business was not
        particularly
        > happy with 'Mr. Madison's War', as some called it. As the war ground on,
        > there was a very real secessionist movement in New England that
        threatened
        > to have the young republic split right down the Champlain/Hudson
        corridor.
        > The New Englanders got along fine with the Canadians to their north and
        were
        > suffering badly as the RN slowly shut down the American seaboard and
        > strangled the economy, which had been doing just fine as the British,
        > grappling with Napoleon, needed to buy American goods. Albert Gallatin
        > warned the President that the nation was approaching bankruptcy, and the
        > British army in Upper and Lower Canada (Quebec and Ontario) and the
        Canadian
        > militia marched very often in American shoes (sold for a fine profit)
        and
        > ate Vermont beef, which was driven across the border in a regular cattle
        > drive by the Vermont farmers. At least one serious skirmish between the
        > Vermonters and US troops sent to stop this trade took place. Support for
        the
        > war seemed to be the highest in the West, where the 'War Hawks' wanted
        the
        > development of the Ohio/Indiana/Michigan lands to be unfettered by
        Indian
        > resistance led by Tecumseh and his brother, The Prophet; and lowest in
        New
        > England (even with British impressment of American seamen being an
        > issue)where a clandestine trade with their Canadian friends went on in
        spite
        > of Washington. The War Hawks got their wish of removing Tecumseh and
        > smashing the warrior resistance when the Kentuckians under Harrison won
        at
        > Moraviantown in Canada in 1813, but that was a rare victory in Canada;
        > Canada was not Mexico of the 1840s, and Congress became tired of hearing
        of
        > yet another army being sent north (under Hull, or Dearborn, or
        Wilkinson, or
        > Hampton) to defeat at the hands of the British and Canadians. The solid
        > American naval victories at Put-in Bay and Plattsburg, the defense of
        New
        > Orleans, and the single-ship successes of the USN's frigates that did
        manage
        > to slide out past the RN blockade, added to British desires of calming
        > things down to give America a sense of some success in the war, even
        though
        > the national defense had essentially collapsed, and the national capital
        > city had been taken. Geography and numbers helped a lot (the Duke of
        > Wellington rightly said, as he looked at the vast sweep of America, that
        it
        > was essentially unconquerable, and aren't we glad he was right). But
        > business hadn't been happy about the war, and did its best to either
        ignore
        > it or go around it.
        >
        > Yours aye
        >
        > Vic Suthren
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Peter Catley <peter.catley@...>
        > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:58 AM
        > Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
        >
        >
        > > During the Napoleonic wars the shoemakers of Northampton (and others)
        > sold
        > > their wares to both sides. In a genuine free enterprise economy the
        > > governments have relatively limited influence on trade and economy.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > The answer to the question is you cannot let politics and war get in
        the
        > way
        > > of profit, look at the whole Continental blockade policy of the
        Emperor
        > > honoured more in the breach than the observance..
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Cheers
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > P**
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: PEGGY MATHEWS [mailto:ciefranche21e@...]
        > > Sent: 02 February 2004 03:12
        > > To: 1812elist
        > > Subject: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I was watching the videotape of the broadcast of the bicentennial
        ceremony
        > > at New Orleans last December (thanks Joe!) and the comment was made
        that
        > > British bankers loaned the infant United States the 15 million dollars
        to
        > > make purchase since the country didn't have that kind of money. So
        > assuming
        > > this is correct, and some comments by the commentators weren't, was
        > Britain
        > > so very unconcerned by the land deal or couldn't they control the
        banks?
        > >
        > > It would seem to be contrary to national interests to see Republican
        > France
        > > get the money, and the United States gain territory that put them in
        > > immediate conflict with British interests. Since arguably the land
        deal
        > > contributed to the outbreak of the War of 1812 (my tenuous connection
        to
        > the
        > > list), why did it occur?
        > >
        > > Inquiring minds want to know.
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > > Michael Mathews
        > >
        > >
        > > Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. The Dali Lama
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
        of
        > > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
        THOUSANDS
        > of
        > > square miles...
        > >
        > > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        > >
        > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > _____
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
        > >
        > >
        > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        > >
        > >
        > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
        of
        > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
        THOUSANDS of
        > square miles...
        > >
        > > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > > ---------------------------------
        > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        > >
        > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
        of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
        of square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
        square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
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