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Re: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?

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  • suthren@magma.ca
    Dear Michael From what I know of the War of 1812 American business was not particularly happy with Mr. Madison s War , as some called it. As the war ground
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 2, 2004
      Dear Michael

      From what I know of the War of 1812 American business was not particularly
      happy with 'Mr. Madison's War', as some called it. As the war ground on,
      there was a very real secessionist movement in New England that threatened
      to have the young republic split right down the Champlain/Hudson corridor.
      The New Englanders got along fine with the Canadians to their north and were
      suffering badly as the RN slowly shut down the American seaboard and
      strangled the economy, which had been doing just fine as the British,
      grappling with Napoleon, needed to buy American goods. Albert Gallatin
      warned the President that the nation was approaching bankruptcy, and the
      British army in Upper and Lower Canada (Quebec and Ontario) and the Canadian
      militia marched very often in American shoes (sold for a fine profit) and
      ate Vermont beef, which was driven across the border in a regular cattle
      drive by the Vermont farmers. At least one serious skirmish between the
      Vermonters and US troops sent to stop this trade took place. Support for the
      war seemed to be the highest in the West, where the 'War Hawks' wanted the
      development of the Ohio/Indiana/Michigan lands to be unfettered by Indian
      resistance led by Tecumseh and his brother, The Prophet; and lowest in New
      England (even with British impressment of American seamen being an
      issue)where a clandestine trade with their Canadian friends went on in spite
      of Washington. The War Hawks got their wish of removing Tecumseh and
      smashing the warrior resistance when the Kentuckians under Harrison won at
      Moraviantown in Canada in 1813, but that was a rare victory in Canada;
      Canada was not Mexico of the 1840s, and Congress became tired of hearing of
      yet another army being sent north (under Hull, or Dearborn, or Wilkinson, or
      Hampton) to defeat at the hands of the British and Canadians. The solid
      American naval victories at Put-in Bay and Plattsburg, the defense of New
      Orleans, and the single-ship successes of the USN's frigates that did manage
      to slide out past the RN blockade, added to British desires of calming
      things down to give America a sense of some success in the war, even though
      the national defense had essentially collapsed, and the national capital
      city had been taken. Geography and numbers helped a lot (the Duke of
      Wellington rightly said, as he looked at the vast sweep of America, that it
      was essentially unconquerable, and aren't we glad he was right). But
      business hadn't been happy about the war, and did its best to either ignore
      it or go around it.

      Yours aye

      Vic Suthren

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Peter Catley <peter.catley@...>
      To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:58 AM
      Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?


      > During the Napoleonic wars the shoemakers of Northampton (and others)
      sold
      > their wares to both sides. In a genuine free enterprise economy the
      > governments have relatively limited influence on trade and economy.
      >
      >
      >
      > The answer to the question is you cannot let politics and war get in the
      way
      > of profit, look at the whole Continental blockade policy of the Emperor
      > honoured more in the breach than the observance..
      >
      >
      >
      > Cheers
      >
      >
      >
      > P**
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: PEGGY MATHEWS [mailto:ciefranche21e@...]
      > Sent: 02 February 2004 03:12
      > To: 1812elist
      > Subject: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
      >
      >
      >
      > I was watching the videotape of the broadcast of the bicentennial ceremony
      > at New Orleans last December (thanks Joe!) and the comment was made that
      > British bankers loaned the infant United States the 15 million dollars to
      > make purchase since the country didn't have that kind of money. So
      assuming
      > this is correct, and some comments by the commentators weren't, was
      Britain
      > so very unconcerned by the land deal or couldn't they control the banks?
      >
      > It would seem to be contrary to national interests to see Republican
      France
      > get the money, and the United States gain territory that put them in
      > immediate conflict with British interests. Since arguably the land deal
      > contributed to the outbreak of the War of 1812 (my tenuous connection to
      the
      > list), why did it occur?
      >
      > Inquiring minds want to know.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Michael Mathews
      >
      >
      > Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. The Dali Lama
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
      > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
      of
      > square miles...
      >
      > Unit Contact information for North America:
      > ---------------------------------
      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      >
      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
      >
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
      >
      >
      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
      square miles...
      >
      > Unit Contact information for North America:
      > ---------------------------------
      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      >
      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      > To visit your group on the web, go to:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • PEGGY MATHEWS
      Well yes Vic, our internal southern hawks vs. the New England profiteers is well known. But that isn t part of British foreign policy. I m just surprised
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 2, 2004
        Well yes Vic, our internal southern "hawks" vs. the New England profiteers is well known. But that isn't part of British foreign policy. I'm just surprised that the government had so little influence over the British banking system that they would finance a land deal that was contrary to the current agenda. i.e. Aiding Bonaparte, allowing growth in the former colonies, and removing vulnerable French possessions.

        It seems like the navy and army were fond of capturing isolated French (or whomever they were currently fighting) colonies for profit, removing privateer bases, and morale building.

        If as Peter says it's just business as usual, it seems somewhat akin to say, Donald Trump openly loaning money to Al-Quida for purchase of Stinger ground to air missiles.

        Regards,
        Michael Mathews
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: suthren@...
        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 7:31 AM
        Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?


        Dear Michael

        From what I know of the War of 1812 American business was not particularly
        happy with 'Mr. Madison's War', as some called it. As the war ground on,
        there was a very real secessionist movement in New England that threatened
        to have the young republic split right down the Champlain/Hudson corridor.
        The New Englanders got along fine with the Canadians to their north and were
        suffering badly as the RN slowly shut down the American seaboard and
        strangled the economy, which had been doing just fine as the British,
        grappling with Napoleon, needed to buy American goods. Albert Gallatin
        warned the President that the nation was approaching bankruptcy, and the
        British army in Upper and Lower Canada (Quebec and Ontario) and the Canadian
        militia marched very often in American shoes (sold for a fine profit) and
        ate Vermont beef, which was driven across the border in a regular cattle
        drive by the Vermont farmers. At least one serious skirmish between the
        Vermonters and US troops sent to stop this trade took place. Support for the
        war seemed to be the highest in the West, where the 'War Hawks' wanted the
        development of the Ohio/Indiana/Michigan lands to be unfettered by Indian
        resistance led by Tecumseh and his brother, The Prophet; and lowest in New
        England (even with British impressment of American seamen being an
        issue)where a clandestine trade with their Canadian friends went on in spite
        of Washington. The War Hawks got their wish of removing Tecumseh and
        smashing the warrior resistance when the Kentuckians under Harrison won at
        Moraviantown in Canada in 1813, but that was a rare victory in Canada;
        Canada was not Mexico of the 1840s, and Congress became tired of hearing of
        yet another army being sent north (under Hull, or Dearborn, or Wilkinson, or
        Hampton) to defeat at the hands of the British and Canadians. The solid
        American naval victories at Put-in Bay and Plattsburg, the defense of New
        Orleans, and the single-ship successes of the USN's frigates that did manage
        to slide out past the RN blockade, added to British desires of calming
        things down to give America a sense of some success in the war, even though
        the national defense had essentially collapsed, and the national capital
        city had been taken. Geography and numbers helped a lot (the Duke of
        Wellington rightly said, as he looked at the vast sweep of America, that it
        was essentially unconquerable, and aren't we glad he was right). But
        business hadn't been happy about the war, and did its best to either ignore
        it or go around it.

        Yours aye

        Vic Suthren

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Peter Catley <peter.catley@...>
        To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:58 AM
        Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?


        > During the Napoleonic wars the shoemakers of Northampton (and others)
        sold
        > their wares to both sides. In a genuine free enterprise economy the
        > governments have relatively limited influence on trade and economy.
        >
        >
        >
        > The answer to the question is you cannot let politics and war get in the
        way
        > of profit, look at the whole Continental blockade policy of the Emperor
        > honoured more in the breach than the observance..
        >
        >
        >
        > Cheers
        >
        >
        >
        > P**
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: PEGGY MATHEWS [mailto:ciefranche21e@...]
        > Sent: 02 February 2004 03:12
        > To: 1812elist
        > Subject: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
        >
        >
        >
        > I was watching the videotape of the broadcast of the bicentennial ceremony
        > at New Orleans last December (thanks Joe!) and the comment was made that
        > British bankers loaned the infant United States the 15 million dollars to
        > make purchase since the country didn't have that kind of money. So
        assuming
        > this is correct, and some comments by the commentators weren't, was
        Britain
        > so very unconcerned by the land deal or couldn't they control the banks?
        >
        > It would seem to be contrary to national interests to see Republican
        France
        > get the money, and the United States gain territory that put them in
        > immediate conflict with British interests. Since arguably the land deal
        > contributed to the outbreak of the War of 1812 (my tenuous connection to
        the
        > list), why did it occur?
        >
        > Inquiring minds want to know.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Michael Mathews
        >
        >
        > Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. The Dali Lama
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
        of
        > square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
        >
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
        square miles...
        >
        > Unit Contact information for North America:
        > ---------------------------------
        > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
        >
        > American Forces Unit Lisiting
        > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >


        The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

        Unit Contact information for North America:
        ---------------------------------
        Crown Forces Unit Listing:
        http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

        American Forces Unit Lisiting
        http://usforces1812.tripod.com

        Yahoo! Groups Links

        To visit your group on the web, go to:
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/

        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • suthren@magma.ca
        Dear Michael Thanks for your good note. My understanding was that British financial and banking interests, and British commerce generally, were in fact anxious
        Message 3 of 6 , Feb 2, 2004
          Dear Michael

          Thanks for your good note. My understanding was that British financial and
          banking interests, and British commerce generally, were in fact anxious for
          the United States to grow and do well; it was a potentially vast market, was
          a vital supplier of raw materials and other goods for the booming British
          industrial revolution, and was a cousin nation with which political
          disagreements were seen as transitory and not fundamentally antagonistic.
          Support for the war was weak in Parliament, and the natural alliance and
          common interests of Britain and America were always bubbling up to the
          surface in spite of saber-rattling jingoists. Getting the French out of
          America meant reducing the long-term resources of the true enemy. The Brits
          knew the French would spend America's borrowed purchase price in a month,
          and in the long term knew supporting Jonathan and his new republic was in
          Britain's best interests---as history since then has revealed to be true.

          Yours aye

          Vic

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: PEGGY MATHEWS <ciefranche21e@...>
          To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:26 AM
          Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?


          > Well yes Vic, our internal southern "hawks" vs. the New England profiteers
          is well known. But that isn't part of British foreign policy. I'm just
          surprised that the government had so little influence over the British
          banking system that they would finance a land deal that was contrary to the
          current agenda. i.e. Aiding Bonaparte, allowing growth in the former
          colonies, and removing vulnerable French possessions.
          >
          > It seems like the navy and army were fond of capturing isolated French (or
          whomever they were currently fighting) colonies for profit, removing
          privateer bases, and morale building.
          >
          > If as Peter says it's just business as usual, it seems somewhat akin to
          say, Donald Trump openly loaning money to Al-Quida for purchase of Stinger
          ground to air missiles.
          >
          > Regards,
          > Michael Mathews
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: suthren@...
          > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 7:31 AM
          > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
          >
          >
          > Dear Michael
          >
          > From what I know of the War of 1812 American business was not
          particularly
          > happy with 'Mr. Madison's War', as some called it. As the war ground on,
          > there was a very real secessionist movement in New England that
          threatened
          > to have the young republic split right down the Champlain/Hudson
          corridor.
          > The New Englanders got along fine with the Canadians to their north and
          were
          > suffering badly as the RN slowly shut down the American seaboard and
          > strangled the economy, which had been doing just fine as the British,
          > grappling with Napoleon, needed to buy American goods. Albert Gallatin
          > warned the President that the nation was approaching bankruptcy, and the
          > British army in Upper and Lower Canada (Quebec and Ontario) and the
          Canadian
          > militia marched very often in American shoes (sold for a fine profit)
          and
          > ate Vermont beef, which was driven across the border in a regular cattle
          > drive by the Vermont farmers. At least one serious skirmish between the
          > Vermonters and US troops sent to stop this trade took place. Support for
          the
          > war seemed to be the highest in the West, where the 'War Hawks' wanted
          the
          > development of the Ohio/Indiana/Michigan lands to be unfettered by
          Indian
          > resistance led by Tecumseh and his brother, The Prophet; and lowest in
          New
          > England (even with British impressment of American seamen being an
          > issue)where a clandestine trade with their Canadian friends went on in
          spite
          > of Washington. The War Hawks got their wish of removing Tecumseh and
          > smashing the warrior resistance when the Kentuckians under Harrison won
          at
          > Moraviantown in Canada in 1813, but that was a rare victory in Canada;
          > Canada was not Mexico of the 1840s, and Congress became tired of hearing
          of
          > yet another army being sent north (under Hull, or Dearborn, or
          Wilkinson, or
          > Hampton) to defeat at the hands of the British and Canadians. The solid
          > American naval victories at Put-in Bay and Plattsburg, the defense of
          New
          > Orleans, and the single-ship successes of the USN's frigates that did
          manage
          > to slide out past the RN blockade, added to British desires of calming
          > things down to give America a sense of some success in the war, even
          though
          > the national defense had essentially collapsed, and the national capital
          > city had been taken. Geography and numbers helped a lot (the Duke of
          > Wellington rightly said, as he looked at the vast sweep of America, that
          it
          > was essentially unconquerable, and aren't we glad he was right). But
          > business hadn't been happy about the war, and did its best to either
          ignore
          > it or go around it.
          >
          > Yours aye
          >
          > Vic Suthren
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Peter Catley <peter.catley@...>
          > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:58 AM
          > Subject: RE: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
          >
          >
          > > During the Napoleonic wars the shoemakers of Northampton (and others)
          > sold
          > > their wares to both sides. In a genuine free enterprise economy the
          > > governments have relatively limited influence on trade and economy.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The answer to the question is you cannot let politics and war get in
          the
          > way
          > > of profit, look at the whole Continental blockade policy of the
          Emperor
          > > honoured more in the breach than the observance..
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Cheers
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > P**
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: PEGGY MATHEWS [mailto:ciefranche21e@...]
          > > Sent: 02 February 2004 03:12
          > > To: 1812elist
          > > Subject: [WarOf1812] Britain finances Louisiana Purchase?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I was watching the videotape of the broadcast of the bicentennial
          ceremony
          > > at New Orleans last December (thanks Joe!) and the comment was made
          that
          > > British bankers loaned the infant United States the 15 million dollars
          to
          > > make purchase since the country didn't have that kind of money. So
          > assuming
          > > this is correct, and some comments by the commentators weren't, was
          > Britain
          > > so very unconcerned by the land deal or couldn't they control the
          banks?
          > >
          > > It would seem to be contrary to national interests to see Republican
          > France
          > > get the money, and the United States gain territory that put them in
          > > immediate conflict with British interests. Since arguably the land
          deal
          > > contributed to the outbreak of the War of 1812 (my tenuous connection
          to
          > the
          > > list), why did it occur?
          > >
          > > Inquiring minds want to know.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Michael Mathews
          > >
          > >
          > > Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality. The Dali Lama
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
          of
          > > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
          THOUSANDS
          > of
          > > square miles...
          > >
          > > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          > >
          > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > _____
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
          > >
          > >
          > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          > >
          > >
          > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
          of
          > square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
          THOUSANDS of
          > square miles...
          > >
          > > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > > ---------------------------------
          > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          > >
          > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
          of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
          of square miles...
          >
          > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > ---------------------------------
          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          >
          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
          square miles...
          >
          > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > ---------------------------------
          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          >
          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WarOf1812/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > WarOf1812-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
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