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Musket ball impact

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  • suthren@magma.ca
    Gentlemen I wonder if the following thought is valid: the recoil from a properly-loaded Bess firing live ball is roughly similar in foot-pound force to that of
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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      Gentlemen

      I wonder if the following thought is valid: the recoil from a properly-loaded Bess firing live ball is roughly similar in foot-pound force to that of a 12-gauge shotgun firing a 'slug', or should be, although due to modern propellants the shotgun slug will have a somewhat higher muzzle velocity. That force is diffused over the surface area of the butt plate and is absorbed to a degree by the tensed preparedness of the body to receive the force. In the case of the impact force of the ball, that same total of effort is compressed into the surface area of the ball on impact with the person, providing a concentration of force not unlike the shaped charge used in armour-piercing modern rounds. The body is also unlikely to be braced to receive the impact as the firing person's body is. It would seem logical that both these circumstances would indicate a hit from a Brown Bess ball at close proximity would, in fact, dramatically knock one down without requiring the firer to be also laid out flat.

      Admittedly we risk arguing over trivia here, but as we are asked on occasion what the true effect of historic weapons were, perhaps it's useful to discuss. Thoughts?

      Yours aye

      Vic Suthren



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mark dickerson
      I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital speed of the musket
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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        I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration
        (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital speed of the
        musket ball is zero and the final speed of the musket ball is zero. The
        same amount of energy that accelerates it must also bring it to a complete
        stop. However the distance traveled to accelerate the ball is the entire
        length of the Bess barrel (approx 49" or so), BUT the deceration distance
        was only few inches. Thus a greater force would be created to stop the
        ball because F=m*a. The mass doesn't change but the deceleration is much
        greater than the acceleration was (acceleration=speed*distance).
        However it was been 10 years or since my last physics class. And this
        still doesn't answer the question to how a human body would react to a
        musket ball.
        Enjoy.
        Mark Dickerson
      • John-Paul Johnson
        Your physics is correct. I think the idea of someone getting knocked arse-over-teakettle is more Sam Peckinpah rather than reality. A musket ball entering the
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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          Your physics is correct. I think the idea of someone getting knocked arse-over-teakettle is more Sam Peckinpah rather than reality.

          A musket ball entering the abdomen you probably cause the person to double over and *then* fall on their butt (ever been punched in the stomach?).

          Interesting this about gut shots is that you don't die from bloodloss but rather trauma. The shock wave causes a cavity much larger that the round itself that displaces the internal organs as it passes. The organs then rush back in to fill the cavity and the trauma caused is often fatal.

          Modern rounds have a nasty habit of tumbling while inside the body and exiting backwards. I've seen slow-motion video of a C-7 round (the Cdn version of the AR-15) passing through ballistic jelly and the cross section of the wound caused is HORRIBLE.

          Anyone know the muzzle velocity of a bess round? That'd give you all the info you'd need to give you an idea of the force on impact.

          J-P Johnson
          Bulger's Coy RNR

          >
          > From: "mark dickerson" <mdickerson1@...>
          > Date: 2003/11/29 Sat PM 02:44:25 GMT
          > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact
          >
          > I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration
          > (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital speed of the
          > musket ball is zero and the final speed of the musket ball is zero. The
          > same amount of energy that accelerates it must also bring it to a complete
          > stop. However the distance traveled to accelerate the ball is the entire
          > length of the Bess barrel (approx 49" or so), BUT the deceration distance
          > was only few inches. Thus a greater force would be created to stop the
          > ball because F=m*a. The mass doesn't change but the deceleration is much
          > greater than the acceleration was (acceleration=speed*distance).
          > However it was been 10 years or since my last physics class. And this
          > still doesn't answer the question to how a human body would react to a
          > musket ball.
          > Enjoy.
          > Mark Dickerson
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
          >
          > Unit Contact information for North America:
          > ---------------------------------
          > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
          > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
          >
          > American Forces Unit Lisiting
          > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          >
        • John-Paul Johnson
          I suppose some hit in the gut might also double up and fall on their face as well. J-P
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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            I suppose some hit in the gut might also double up and fall on their face as well.

            J-P

            >
            > From: John-Paul Johnson <jpjohnsn@...>
            > Date: 2003/11/29 Sat PM 03:17:46 GMT
            > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: Re: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact
            >
            > Your physics is correct. I think the idea of someone getting knocked arse-over-teakettle is more Sam Peckinpah rather than reality.
            >
            > A musket ball entering the abdomen you probably cause the person to double over and *then* fall on their butt (ever been punched in the stomach?).
            >
            > Interesting this about gut shots is that you don't die from bloodloss but rather trauma. The shock wave causes a cavity much larger that the round itself that displaces the internal organs as it passes. The organs then rush back in to fill the cavity and the trauma caused is often fatal.
            >
            > Modern rounds have a nasty habit of tumbling while inside the body and exiting backwards. I've seen slow-motion video of a C-7 round (the Cdn version of the AR-15) passing through ballistic jelly and the cross section of the wound caused is HORRIBLE.
            >
            > Anyone know the muzzle velocity of a bess round? That'd give you all the info you'd need to give you an idea of the force on impact.
            >
            > J-P Johnson
            > Bulger's Coy RNR
            >
            > >
            > > From: "mark dickerson" <mdickerson1@...>
            > > Date: 2003/11/29 Sat PM 02:44:25 GMT
            > > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact
            > >
            > > I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration
            > > (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital speed of the
            > > musket ball is zero and the final speed of the musket ball is zero. The
            > > same amount of energy that accelerates it must also bring it to a complete
            > > stop. However the distance traveled to accelerate the ball is the entire
            > > length of the Bess barrel (approx 49" or so), BUT the deceration distance
            > > was only few inches. Thus a greater force would be created to stop the
            > > ball because F=m*a. The mass doesn't change but the deceleration is much
            > > greater than the acceleration was (acceleration=speed*distance).
            > > However it was been 10 years or since my last physics class. And this
            > > still doesn't answer the question to how a human body would react to a
            > > musket ball.
            > > Enjoy.
            > > Mark Dickerson
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
            > >
            > > Unit Contact information for North America:
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
            > >
            > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
            > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
            >
            > Unit Contact information for North America:
            > ---------------------------------
            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
            >
            > American Forces Unit Lisiting
            > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • PEGGY MATHEWS
            I recall reading somewhere (sorry, don t recall where) that the muzzle velocity of a Bess was/is 1200 feet per second, and a Charleville of the period 1400fps
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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              I recall reading somewhere (sorry, don't recall where) that the muzzle velocity of a Bess was/is 1200 feet per second, and a Charleville of the period 1400fps because of less "windage."

              Michael Mathews
              (snip)
              Anyone know the muzzle velocity of a bess round? That'd give you all the info you'd need to give you an idea of the force on impact.

              J-P Johnson
              Bulger's Coy RNR
              (snip)

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John E Greig
              Hi All The muzzle velocity of a ball from any musket cannot be totally defined, there are too many improbables. Powder - Quality, grain size and humidity.
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                Hi All

                The muzzle velocity of a ball from any musket cannot be totally defined, there are too many improbables.

                Powder - Quality, grain size and humidity.

                Touch hole size.

                Ball size in relation to the diameter of the barrel.


                The powder usually used for blank firing by re-enactors is the same as is used for priming and is therefore too small a grain size for accurate shooting.
                The powder normally used in the UK for target shooting with the BB is called TPPH, a fairly coarse powder allowing more air in between the granuals therefore more oxygen to complete the burn and build up pressure. Powder can be somewhat damp and still burn at aslower rate than completely dry. Not so much pressure, lower velocity. A few years ago we were finding rust on the inside of Black Silver powder cans, must have been some moisture inside.

                If the touch hole is too large pressure can be lost back through it.

                Ball size. This brings in that great word. Obturation, e.g. gas getting past the ball and loss of optimum pressure.

                For Target shooting with the BB, in the ideal conditions and situations, I find the following ideal:

                Load. 85 grains TPPH, priming a small amount of Black Silver 1 pistol powder.

                Ball 20 thou less that barell diameter wrapped in greased paper. Acts almost like a patch. A paper wad.

                This load has benn chronographed at 1075 ft/sec.

                Does this help?

                Squire John

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John-Paul Johnson
                To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 3:17 PM
                Subject: Re: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact


                Your physics is correct. I think the idea of someone getting knocked arse-over-teakettle is more Sam Peckinpah rather than reality.

                A musket ball entering the abdomen you probably cause the person to double over and *then* fall on their butt (ever been punched in the stomach?).

                Interesting this about gut shots is that you don't die from bloodloss but rather trauma. The shock wave causes a cavity much larger that the round itself that displaces the internal organs as it passes. The organs then rush back in to fill the cavity and the trauma caused is often fatal.

                Modern rounds have a nasty habit of tumbling while inside the body and exiting backwards. I've seen slow-motion video of a C-7 round (the Cdn version of the AR-15) passing through ballistic jelly and the cross section of the wound caused is HORRIBLE.

                Anyone know the muzzle velocity of a bess round? That'd give you all the info you'd need to give you an idea of the force on impact.

                J-P Johnson
                Bulger's Coy RNR

                >
                > From: "mark dickerson" <mdickerson1@...>
                > Date: 2003/11/29 Sat PM 02:44:25 GMT
                > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact
                >
                > I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration
                > (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital speed of the
                > musket ball is zero and the final speed of the musket ball is zero. The
                > same amount of energy that accelerates it must also bring it to a complete
                > stop. However the distance traveled to accelerate the ball is the entire
                > length of the Bess barrel (approx 49" or so), BUT the deceration distance
                > was only few inches. Thus a greater force would be created to stop the
                > ball because F=m*a. The mass doesn't change but the deceleration is much
                > greater than the acceleration was (acceleration=speed*distance).
                > However it was been 10 years or since my last physics class. And this
                > still doesn't answer the question to how a human body would react to a
                > musket ball.
                > Enjoy.
                > Mark Dickerson
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                >
                > Unit Contact information for North America:
                > ---------------------------------
                > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                >
                > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >


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                The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                Unit Contact information for North America:
                ---------------------------------
                Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                American Forces Unit Lisiting
                http://usforces1812.tripod.com

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • ANDREW BATEMAN
                mark dickerson wrote: I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration (and deceleration) must also be taken
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                  mark dickerson <mdickerson1@...> wrote:
                  I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration
                  (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital speed of the
                  musket ball is zero and the final speed of the musket ball is zero. The
                  same amount of energy that accelerates it must also bring it to a complete
                  stop. However the distance traveled to accelerate the ball is the entire
                  length of the Bess barrel (approx 49" or so), BUT the deceration distance
                  was only few inches.

                  Andrew writes:

                  Well, you're assuming that the ball stops within the body (which it did in the movie) but in real life it is likely to go straight through at that range, carrying away much of its energy with it. (BTW, why was that guy trying to shoot a flying bird with a roundball anyway? Waste of powder - even Annie Oakley used shot cartridges.) It really depends where a person is hit. If a major bone is struck the person could go right down, if soft tissue is hit there may not be much of an immediate shock. At least that is what deer hunters tell me.

                  Trying to establish the performance of original musket loads is a bit of a problem. Modern shooters use 80 grains or so for target shooting but the original load was 6 drams (160 grains or twice as much as the modern target load). How good was the original powder though? Was it as efficient and clean burning as the modern stuff or weaker and dirtier? BTW, the US load at the time was 130 grains of powder with a .64 or .65 ball and three pellets of 00 buckshot.

                  Andrew Bateman, 41st Foot



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Craig Williams
                  ... John, No it is not a myth. In one of the graves at Fort Erie was an individual who had been buried with three rounds of buck n ball in his pocket. This
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                    on 11/29/03 1:07 PM, John E Greig at je.greig@... wrote:

                    > The tree buckshot pellets with the American load is interesting.
                    > I assume that the pellets were behind the ball with a wad between.
                    > The introduction of any other projectile, nomatter how small into the same
                    > barrel could have disastrous effects. It only needs to have the larger or the
                    > smaller to lodge together in the barrel to cause a burst. Is the addition of
                    > buckshot a myth ?
                    >
                    > Squire John

                    John,
                    No it is not a myth. In one of the graves at Fort Erie was an individual
                    who had been buried with three rounds of "buck n' ball" in his pocket.
                    This in conjunction with the finding of a single Brit button of the 104th,
                    caused the head archaeologist (a specialist in Native studies and not 19th
                    cent. military), to assume that the deceased was a British soldier shot
                    three times at point blank range.
                    We had a good laugh when we heard that one.

                    Craig
                  • John E Greig
                    The tree buckshot pellets with the American load is interesting. I assume that the pellets were behind the ball with a wad between. The introduction of any
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                      The tree buckshot pellets with the American load is interesting.
                      I assume that the pellets were behind the ball with a wad between.
                      The introduction of any other projectile, nomatter how small into the same barrel could have disastrous effects. It only needs to have the larger or the smaller to lodge together in the barrel to cause a burst. Is the addition of buckshot a myth ?

                      Squire John


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: ANDREW BATEMAN
                      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 4:30 PM
                      Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact


                      mark dickerson <mdickerson1@...> wrote:
                      I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration
                      (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital speed of the
                      musket ball is zero and the final speed of the musket ball is zero. The
                      same amount of energy that accelerates it must also bring it to a complete
                      stop. However the distance traveled to accelerate the ball is the entire
                      length of the Bess barrel (approx 49" or so), BUT the deceration distance
                      was only few inches.

                      Andrew writes:

                      Well, you're assuming that the ball stops within the body (which it did in the movie) but in real life it is likely to go straight through at that range, carrying away much of its energy with it. (BTW, why was that guy trying to shoot a flying bird with a roundball anyway? Waste of powder - even Annie Oakley used shot cartridges.) It really depends where a person is hit. If a major bone is struck the person could go right down, if soft tissue is hit there may not be much of an immediate shock. At least that is what deer hunters tell me.

                      Trying to establish the performance of original musket loads is a bit of a problem. Modern shooters use 80 grains or so for target shooting but the original load was 6 drams (160 grains or twice as much as the modern target load). How good was the original powder though? Was it as efficient and clean burning as the modern stuff or weaker and dirtier? BTW, the US load at the time was 130 grains of powder with a .64 or .65 ball and three pellets of 00 buckshot.

                      Andrew Bateman, 41st Foot



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                      The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                      Unit Contact information for North America:
                      ---------------------------------
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                      http://1812crownforces.tripod.com

                      American Forces Unit Lisiting
                      http://usforces1812.tripod.com

                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ANDREW BATEMAN
                      John E Greig wrote: The tree buckshot pellets with the American load is interesting. Andrew writes: The buck and ball load was
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                        John E Greig <je.greig@...> wrote:
                        The tree buckshot pellets with the American load is interesting.


                        Andrew writes:

                        The "buck and ball" load was always the standard US smoothbore load right up until the Civil War. There was also a single ball load and a load containing just 12 buckshot for guard duty, but these were far less common than the buck and ball load. Here is what a cartridge looked like: http://www.sharpsburg-arsenal.com/Cartridges/69_Cal_buck_and_ball_/69_cal_buck_and_ball_.html The three buckshot were put into the cartridge first, then the ball. There was a string that tied the end of the cartridge closed, then took one snug half hitch between the buckshot and the ball, then another wrap below the ball before being tied off. The tail of the cartridge would be bitten off, then you would prime and pour in the powder, then load the buck and ball still wrapped securely in the paper. Perhaps that prevents the jamming problems you describe. Upon discharge the projectiles would break free of the paper, giving you four chances to hit a target instead of one. The straight buckshot load
                        resembled a miniature grapeshot with four layers of three shot stacked on top of each other and wraps of string between each layer.

                        I've done some plinking with my 1842 Springfield using my own buck and ball loads, and it has a healthy kick! The buckshot do not show nearly as much pentetration as the roundball but they would be sufficient to cause a wound and take someone out of action. At 25 yards or so the buckshot only dented a drum lid while the ball went right through.

                        Andrew Bateman, 41st Foot



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Andy
                        Your right about the rounds. That load was popular during the revolutionary war. and It was ordered as the standard round by Anthony Wayne in 1792 when he was
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                          Your right about the rounds. That load was popular during the
                          revolutionary war. and It was ordered as the standard round by
                          Anthony Wayne in 1792 when he was training his troops in Legionville
                          Pa. before his expedition into the Ohio territory
                          (just as a side note, Anthony Waynes training site is just down the
                          road from me and has been untouched since 1792, but they are planing
                          to build a car dealership on it next year, my reenactment group is
                          trying to stop this)

                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, Craig Williams <sgtwarner@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > on 11/29/03 1:07 PM, John E Greig at je.greig@b... wrote:
                          >
                          > > The tree buckshot pellets with the American load is interesting.
                          > > I assume that the pellets were behind the ball with a wad
                          between.
                          > > The introduction of any other projectile, nomatter how small
                          into the same
                          > > barrel could have disastrous effects. It only needs to have the
                          larger or the
                          > > smaller to lodge together in the barrel to cause a burst. Is the
                          addition of
                          > > buckshot a myth ?
                          > >
                          > > Squire John
                          >
                          > John,
                          > No it is not a myth. In one of the graves at Fort Erie was an
                          individual
                          > who had been buried with three rounds of "buck n' ball" in his
                          pocket.
                          > This in conjunction with the finding of a single Brit button of
                          the 104th,
                          > caused the head archaeologist (a specialist in Native studies and
                          not 19th
                          > cent. military), to assume that the deceased was a British soldier
                          shot
                          > three times at point blank range.
                          > We had a good laugh when we heard that one.
                          >
                          > Craig
                        • John-Paul Johnson
                          Just pulled out the old physics text and did a little back of the envelope calculations to pass time on this snowbound day.. Let s assume assume a a perfect
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                            Just pulled out the old physics text and did a little back of the
                            envelope calculations to pass time on this snowbound day..

                            Let's assume assume a a perfect musket with a barrel length of 48 in
                            (1.2 m) accelerating a 1 ounce (2.8 g) ball to a muzzle velocity of 1000
                            fps (304.8 m/s). The force on the ball during that time is about 1080
                            Newtons (a Newton is the force required to accelerate 1 Kg at 1 m/s^2).
                            Say the ball hits something and is decelerated from 1000 fps to zero in
                            say, 4 inches (10.16 cm). The force applied to the ball during
                            deceleration is almost 15000 N

                            The real world would produce vastly reduced numbers when you take into
                            account all the factors you've mentioned as well as the aerodynamics
                            of a sphere, temperature, pressure and humidity of the air, etc,
                            etc. But you can see the relationship between the kick of the musket
                            and the impact force of the ball.

                            How the body would react to that would depend on where you were hit.

                            J-P Johnson
                            Bulger's Coy, RNR

                            John E Greig wrote:

                            >Hi All
                            >
                            >The muzzle velocity of a ball from any musket cannot be totally defined, there are too many improbables.
                            >
                            >Powder - Quality, grain size and humidity.
                            >
                            >Touch hole size.
                            >
                            >Ball size in relation to the diameter of the barrel.
                            >
                            >
                            >The powder usually used for blank firing by re-enactors is the same as is used for priming and is therefore too small a grain size for accurate shooting.
                            >The powder normally used in the UK for target shooting with the BB is called TPPH, a fairly coarse powder allowing more air in between the granuals therefore more oxygen to complete the burn and build up pressure. Powder can be somewhat damp and still burn at aslower rate than completely dry. Not so much pressure, lower velocity. A few years ago we were finding rust on the inside of Black Silver powder cans, must have been some moisture inside.
                            >
                            >If the touch hole is too large pressure can be lost back through it.
                            >
                            >Ball size. This brings in that great word. Obturation, e.g. gas getting past the ball and loss of optimum pressure.
                            >
                            >For Target shooting with the BB, in the ideal conditions and situations, I find the following ideal:
                            >
                            >Load. 85 grains TPPH, priming a small amount of Black Silver 1 pistol powder.
                            >
                            >Ball 20 thou less that barell diameter wrapped in greased paper. Acts almost like a patch. A paper wad.
                            >
                            >This load has benn chronographed at 1075 ft/sec.
                            >
                            >Does this help?
                            >
                            >Squire John
                            >
                            >----- Original Message -----
                            > From: John-Paul Johnson
                            > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 3:17 PM
                            > Subject: Re: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact
                            >
                            >
                            > Your physics is correct. I think the idea of someone getting knocked arse-over-teakettle is more Sam Peckinpah rather than reality.
                            >
                            > A musket ball entering the abdomen you probably cause the person to double over and *then* fall on their butt (ever been punched in the stomach?).
                            >
                            > Interesting this about gut shots is that you don't die from bloodloss but rather trauma. The shock wave causes a cavity much larger that the round itself that displaces the internal organs as it passes. The organs then rush back in to fill the cavity and the trauma caused is often fatal.
                            >
                            > Modern rounds have a nasty habit of tumbling while inside the body and exiting backwards. I've seen slow-motion video of a C-7 round (the Cdn version of the AR-15) passing through ballistic jelly and the cross section of the wound caused is HORRIBLE.
                            >
                            > Anyone know the muzzle velocity of a bess round? That'd give you all the info you'd need to give you an idea of the force on impact.
                            >
                            > J-P Johnson
                            > Bulger's Coy RNR
                            >
                            > >
                            > > From: "mark dickerson" <mdickerson1@...>
                            > > Date: 2003/11/29 Sat PM 02:44:25 GMT
                            > > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact
                            > >
                            > > I might as well throw in some more science into this equation. Acceleration
                            > > (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital speed of the
                            > > musket ball is zero and the final speed of the musket ball is zero. The
                            > > same amount of energy that accelerates it must also bring it to a complete
                            > > stop. However the distance traveled to accelerate the ball is the entire
                            > > length of the Bess barrel (approx 49" or so), BUT the deceration distance
                            > > was only few inches. Thus a greater force would be created to stop the
                            > > ball because F=m*a. The mass doesn't change but the deceleration is much
                            > > greater than the acceleration was (acceleration=speed*distance).
                            > > However it was been 10 years or since my last physics class. And this
                            > > still doesn't answer the question to how a human body would react to a
                            > > musket ball.
                            > > Enjoy.
                            > > Mark Dickerson
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                            > >
                            > > Unit Contact information for North America:
                            > > ---------------------------------
                            > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                            > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
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                            > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                            > >
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                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
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                            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                            >
                            > Unit Contact information for North America:
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                            > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
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                            >
                            >Unit Contact information for North America:
                            > ---------------------------------
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                          • dancingbobd@webtv.net
                            Hi Andrew, Thanks for the great info! Bob Dorian Independence, Missouri USA
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                              Hi Andrew,

                              Thanks for the great info!

                              Bob Dorian
                              Independence, Missouri
                              USA
                            • Andy
                              Thats also asuming that the round stops in the body. As it did in the movie. Andy ... 48 in ... of 1000 ... 1080 ... m/s^2). ... zero in ... into ...
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 29, 2003
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                                Thats also asuming that the round stops in the body. As it did in
                                the movie.
                                Andy
                                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, John-Paul Johnson <jpjohnsn@r...>
                                wrote:
                                > Just pulled out the old physics text and did a little back of the
                                > envelope calculations to pass time on this snowbound day..
                                >
                                > Let's assume assume a a perfect musket with a barrel length of
                                48 in
                                > (1.2 m) accelerating a 1 ounce (2.8 g) ball to a muzzle velocity
                                of 1000
                                > fps (304.8 m/s). The force on the ball during that time is about
                                1080
                                > Newtons (a Newton is the force required to accelerate 1 Kg at 1
                                m/s^2).
                                > Say the ball hits something and is decelerated from 1000 fps to
                                zero in
                                > say, 4 inches (10.16 cm). The force applied to the ball during
                                > deceleration is almost 15000 N
                                >
                                > The real world would produce vastly reduced numbers when you take
                                into
                                > account all the factors you've mentioned as well as the
                                aerodynamics
                                > of a sphere, temperature, pressure and humidity of the air,
                                etc,
                                > etc. But you can see the relationship between the kick of the
                                musket
                                > and the impact force of the ball.
                                >
                                > How the body would react to that would depend on where you were
                                hit.
                                >
                                > J-P Johnson
                                > Bulger's Coy, RNR
                                >
                                > John E Greig wrote:
                                >
                                > >Hi All
                                > >
                                > >The muzzle velocity of a ball from any musket cannot be totally
                                defined, there are too many improbables.
                                > >
                                > >Powder - Quality, grain size and humidity.
                                > >
                                > >Touch hole size.
                                > >
                                > >Ball size in relation to the diameter of the barrel.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >The powder usually used for blank firing by re-enactors is the
                                same as is used for priming and is therefore too small a grain size
                                for accurate shooting.
                                > >The powder normally used in the UK for target shooting with the
                                BB is called TPPH, a fairly coarse powder allowing more air in
                                between the granuals therefore more oxygen to complete the burn and
                                build up pressure. Powder can be somewhat damp and still burn at
                                aslower rate than completely dry. Not so much pressure, lower
                                velocity. A few years ago we were finding rust on the inside of
                                Black Silver powder cans, must have been some moisture inside.
                                > >
                                > >If the touch hole is too large pressure can be lost back through
                                it.
                                > >
                                > >Ball size. This brings in that great word. Obturation, e.g. gas
                                getting past the ball and loss of optimum pressure.
                                > >
                                > >For Target shooting with the BB, in the ideal conditions and
                                situations, I find the following ideal:
                                > >
                                > >Load. 85 grains TPPH, priming a small amount of Black Silver 1
                                pistol powder.
                                > >
                                > >Ball 20 thou less that barell diameter wrapped in greased paper.
                                Acts almost like a patch. A paper wad.
                                > >
                                > >This load has benn chronographed at 1075 ft/sec.
                                > >
                                > >Does this help?
                                > >
                                > >Squire John
                                > >
                                > >----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: John-Paul Johnson
                                > > To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 3:17 PM
                                > > Subject: Re: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Your physics is correct. I think the idea of someone getting
                                knocked arse-over-teakettle is more Sam Peckinpah rather than
                                reality.
                                > >
                                > > A musket ball entering the abdomen you probably cause the
                                person to double over and *then* fall on their butt (ever been
                                punched in the stomach?).
                                > >
                                > > Interesting this about gut shots is that you don't die from
                                bloodloss but rather trauma. The shock wave causes a cavity much
                                larger that the round itself that displaces the internal organs as
                                it passes. The organs then rush back in to fill the cavity and the
                                trauma caused is often fatal.
                                > >
                                > > Modern rounds have a nasty habit of tumbling while inside the
                                body and exiting backwards. I've seen slow-motion video of a C-7
                                round (the Cdn version of the AR-15) passing through ballistic jelly
                                and the cross section of the wound caused is HORRIBLE.
                                > >
                                > > Anyone know the muzzle velocity of a bess round? That'd give
                                you all the info you'd need to give you an idea of the force on
                                impact.
                                > >
                                > > J-P Johnson
                                > > Bulger's Coy RNR
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > > > From: "mark dickerson" <mdickerson1@c...>
                                > > > Date: 2003/11/29 Sat PM 02:44:25 GMT
                                > > > To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Musket ball impact
                                > > >
                                > > > I might as well throw in some more science into this
                                equation. Acceleration
                                > > > (and deceleration) must also be taken into account. Inital
                                speed of the
                                > > > musket ball is zero and the final speed of the musket ball is
                                zero. The
                                > > > same amount of energy that accelerates it must also bring it
                                to a complete
                                > > > stop. However the distance traveled to accelerate the ball
                                is the entire
                                > > > length of the Bess barrel (approx 49" or so), BUT the
                                deceration distance
                                > > > was only few inches. Thus a greater force would be created
                                to stop the
                                > > > ball because F=m*a. The mass doesn't change but the
                                deceleration is much
                                > > > greater than the acceleration was
                                (acceleration=speed*distance).
                                > > > However it was been 10 years or since my last physics
                                class. And this
                                > > > still doesn't answer the question to how a human body would
                                react to a
                                > > > musket ball.
                                > > > Enjoy.
                                > > > Mark Dickerson
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                                hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
                                fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                > > >
                                > > > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                > > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                > > >
                                > > > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                > > > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                > > >
                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
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                                > > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                                hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
                                fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                > >
                                > > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                > > ---------------------------------
                                > > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                > > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                > >
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                                Service.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
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                                > >
                                > >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                                hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
                                fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                > >
                                > >Unit Contact information for North America:
                                > > ---------------------------------
                                > >Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                > >http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                > >
                                > >American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                > >http://usforces1812.tripod.com
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                              • Kevin & Allison Windsor
                                I was reading a listing of killed, wounded, missing and a letter of explanation that went along with it and it said something like the amount of wounded seem
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 30, 2003
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                                  I was reading a listing of killed, wounded, missing and a letter of explanation that went along with it and it said something like the amount of wounded seem high but they are not serious owing to many being from buckshot.

                                  (honest Larry it was from a primary source, not from my cousins boyfriend uncle's barber. I have just been reading so many over the past couple of days and it was just one of those ...hm...cool! thoughts, but now I can't find it.) ;-)

                                  Kevin

                                  ANDREW BATEMAN wrote:

                                  > The buckshot do not show nearly as much pentetration as the roundball but they would be sufficient to cause a wound and take someone out of action.
                                • Larry Lozon
                                  From: mark dickerson it was been 10 years or since my last physics class. And this still doesn t answer the question to how a
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Nov 30, 2003
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                                    From: "mark dickerson" <mdickerson1@...>

                                    " it was been 10 years or since my last physics class. And this
                                    still doesn't answer the question to how a human body would react to a
                                    musket ball.

                                    ----------

                                    Mr. Mark,


                                    It's gunna leave a mark!!!! :^)
                                  • Ray Hobbs
                                    List: One of the ways of finding out is to listen to those who were actually hit by musket balls during the conflict. One, George Ferguson,(Light Company,
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Dec 1, 2003
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                                      List:
                                      One of the ways of finding out is to listen to those who were actually
                                      hit by musket balls during the conflict. One, George Ferguson,(Light
                                      Company, 100th Regt. of Foot) was wounded in the left arm at Chippewa.
                                      The ball lodged in his arm near the elbow, and was later removed in
                                      hospital by Surgeon Alexander Thom at York. The remarkable thing is
                                      that Ferguson writes the following "When I received my wound I knew
                                      nothing of it until my piece fell out of my hand and I saw the blood
                                      running down in a stream."
                                      The ball had lodged in the flesh of the arm, and did not break any
                                      bone. The pain came to him after he had reached safety and his arm had
                                      been tourniqetted. The removal of the ball, without anaesthetic, was
                                      also very painful. The arm was saved, although Thom and others wished
                                      for it to be amputated.

                                      This is, of course, only one example of such a case. It does
                                      illustrate, however, that in this case, with Ferguson standing in the
                                      regular British line, the ball did little damage. Also, his body
                                      initially filtered out the pain. If the ball had hit bone, then the
                                      story might have been completely different. This single illustration
                                      cannot be used to generalise, but it is nevertheless interesting.

                                      I do recall that some enthusiasts in ancient warfare wanted to see how
                                      well the composite bow worked, and they used pig carcasses. Results
                                      were predictable - arrows travelling at certain speeds pierce flesh ;->)

                                      Sincerely
                                      Ray Hobbs
                                      41st Regt.


                                      On Sunday, November 30, 2003, at 11:00 PM, Larry Lozon wrote:

                                      > From: "mark dickerson" <mdickerson1@...>
                                      >
                                      > " it was been 10 years or since my last physics class.  And this
                                      > still doesn't answer the question to how a human body would react to a
                                      > musket ball.
                                      >
                                      > ----------
                                      >
                                      > Mr. Mark,
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >                  It's gunna leave a mark!!!! :^)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      <image.tiff>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
                                      > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
                                      > THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                      >
                                      > Unit Contact information for North America:
                                      >    ---------------------------------
                                      > Crown Forces Unit Listing:
                                      > http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
                                      >
                                      > American Forces Unit Lisiting
                                      > http://usforces1812.tripod.com
                                      >
                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

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