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Re: 95th equipment, 5th Battn, 60th

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  • R Henderson
    Hi Roger! Just a quick note. My opinion on the use of powder horns by the 95th is: 1. 1808 a 60 round pouch was approved for the army 2. the 95th adopted this
    Message 1 of 2 , Jul 6, 1999
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      Hi Roger!

      Just a quick note. My opinion on the use of powder horns by the 95th is:

      1. 1808 a 60 round pouch was approved for the army
      2. the 95th adopted this pouch
      3. when they adopted this pouch the powder horn disappeared and the ball bag (suspended on the sling normally used for a cartridge pouch) was transferred to the
      waistbelt.

      This is why you do not see the powder horn later and why you see the ball bag on the waist belt.

      I know you are interested in the 7th Battn 60th so I took a peek in my files on them. All the 60th Regiment's Battalions had two rifle companies attached on their flanks
      (yes even the ones in red). The 5th Battalion was entirely made up of rifles. All the battalions were ordered into green in late 1814 to serve as Light Infantry (not
      rifles yet). The 7th Battalion was designed as a Light Infantry Battalion with two companies of riflemen (hence the 200 rifles). While clothed like the 5th Battalion,
      the rest of the 7th were armed with muskets (whether with light infantry pattern or the india pattern I don't know). Interestingly enough the lt col. of the 7th
      battalion got permission to wear waistbelts all the companies which was "contrary to His Majesty's regulations" for light infantry regiments.

      Sorry have to go,

      Robert

      Roger Fuller wrote:

      > From: "Roger Fuller" <fullerfamily@...>
      >
      > Robert and list,
      >
      > if the British Rifle Regts. are any indication, they started out with
      > beautiful, brass fitted horns with spring fittings and pre-measured pouring
      > spouts, but they often broke, despite their periodic repeated issue by
      > battalion, esp. in the first decade of the 19th century. In fact horns
      > aren't seen too much in illustrations of the 95th made _at the time_ after
      > 1809. I can't think of a one.
      >
      > The Rifleman was always expected to "make do", and to find his own best
      > system of loading and firing. In the field, local supplies of cowhorns were
      > used, fitted with a simple wooden plug or stopper. The measure was either a
      > piece of cow horn tip or a brass tube on a cord. Individual riflemen
      > purchased small priming horns of their own if so desired, but they were not
      > issued to privates by the regiment. (NCOs might be another matter.)
      >
      > In time the riflemen used pre-rolled blank cartridges in conjuction with
      > separate patched ball to prime and load their Bakers much more quickly. In
      > effect, many riflemen eventually eschewed the horn for loading, but some
      > kept them as additional portable, waterproof powder carriers for loading new
      > cartridges. Loading cartridges _with ball_ a la muskets was frowned upon as
      > it fouled the rifling very quickly, rendering the rifle a musket. (Paper
      > makes a poor patch as it tears much more easily than thin leather or linen.)
      > It took a lot of cleaning and scraping to get that lead out of the barrel
      > before accurate aimed fire was again possible.
      >
      > Roger Fuller
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Robert Van Patten <orville@...>
      > To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
      > Date: 02 July 1999 22:05
      > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Infantry equipment, lotsa questions
      >
      > >From: "Robert Van Patten" <orville@...>
      > >
      > >Pray, where does one obtain the correct type of military powder horn?
      > >
      > >----------
      > >> From: BritcomHMP@...
      > >> To: WarOf1812@onelist.com
      > >> Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Infantry equipment, lotsa questions
      > >> Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:40 PM
      > >>
      > >> From: BritcomHMP@...
      > >>
      > >> In a message dated 7/2/99 6:18:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
      > >> orville@... writes:
      > >>
      > >> << You chaps worry about a triple charged musket.
      > >> Try thinking about a powder horn, forgetfully uncapped, drizzling a
      > >stream
      > >> of powder to the ground in the spark-filled environment of a tactical.
      > >>>
      > >>
      > >> Actually the correct type of military powder horn has a spring loaded
      > >stopper
      > >> that dispenses the correct priming charge and automatically closes when
      > >> released (a simple yet ingenious device.
      > >>
      > >> Cheers
      > >>
      > >> Tim
      > >>
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    • Roger Fuller
      ... From: R Henderson To: WarOf1812@onelist.com Date: 06 July 1999 20:57 Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] 95th
      Message 2 of 2 , Jul 6, 1999
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        -----Original Message-----
        From: R Henderson <dis.general@...>
        To: WarOf1812@onelist.com <WarOf1812@onelist.com>
        Date: 06 July 1999 20:57
        Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] 95th equipment, 5th Battn, 60th


        >From: R Henderson <dis.general@...>
        >
        >Hi Roger!
        >
        >Just a quick note. My opinion on the use of powder horns by the 95th is:
        >
        >1. 1808 a 60 round pouch was approved for the army

        Agreed, and the possibility of their use by the rifle regts. is quite
        strong, but until I can get a crack at the WO and Inspection Returns through
        Kew PRO or through anybody else, I can't say one way or the other. However,
        most depictions of them even after the general re-equipping of 1813-1814 in
        the Peninsula still show them with the little boxes, which one can indeed
        cram at least a hundred blank cartridges in, if one foregoes the tin tray or
        wood block inside as issued.


        >2. the 95th adopted this pouch

        Sure, I just need to know exactly when, and if there are any extant examples
        I can put a ruler to.

        >3. when they adopted this pouch the powder horn disappeared and the ball
        bag (suspended on the sling normally used for a cartridge pouch) was
        transferred to the
        >waistbelt.

        I think the horn would have been still carried on home service, say at
        Shorncliffe, but in active service, the horn is a REAL pain to load from.
        BUT it does keep the damp away from the powder better, so I should imagine
        they still carried them as storage, at least every few men, just as one out
        of every four or five light infantrymen got to carry the billhook, usually a
        chosen man or corporal.
        >
        >This is why you do not see the powder horn later and why you see the ball
        bag on the waist belt.

        There were two types of ball bags; the first was a shapeless, drawstring
        variety, of which an example was dug up last year, acc. to John Spencer of
        JD Accoutrements, who also runs the Duke of Wellington exhibit at the
        Bankfield Museum in Yorkshire. The drawstring ball bag was found under the
        floorboards of a workshop last year at Alnwick Castle and is presumed to be
        part of the equipage of Percy's Tenancy Rifles, a militia rifle unit formed
        to fight off any potential French invasions in the early 19th century.

        The second ball bag is more of a rigid ball pouch, with a folded over flap.
        In drawings one of our members, Peter Stines, got from Philip
        Haythornthwaite, this pouch is shown with leather as well as brass closure
        buttons. This basic design of ball pouch and accoutrements was used
        unchanged by the Rifle Brigade and KRRC up until late in the 19th century.
        To wit, there is a photo of a Rifleman in the RB with a spiked helmet on
        from the late 19th century toward the back of Michael Barthorp's "Brit.
        Infantry Uniforms Since 1660"- guess what sort of accoutrements he is still
        wearing....
        >
        >I know you are interested in the 7th Battn 60th so I took a peek in my
        files on them. All the 60th Regiment's Battalions had two rifle companies
        attached on their flanks
        >(yes even the ones in red).

        And they (riflemen of the 60th) served everywhere, even in the invasion of
        Java of 1811, attached to other regiments, acc. to Willoughby-Verner in his
        "History of the Rifle Brigade". Indeed, acc. to Willoughby-Verner, about the
        only place the riflemen never saw action in the Napoleonic Era was in India!

        >The 5th Battalion was entirely made up of rifles. All the battalions were
        ordered into green in late 1814 to serve as Light Infantry (not
        >rifles yet).

        Much like the Light Battalions of the KGL.

        >The 7th Battalion was designed as a Light Infantry Battalion with two
        companies of riflemen (hence the 200 rifles). While clothed like the 5th
        Battalion,
        >the rest of the 7th were armed with muskets (whether with light infantry
        pattern or the india pattern I don't know). Interestingly enough the lt
        col. of the 7th
        >battalion got permission to wear waistbelts all the companies which was
        "contrary to His Majesty's regulations" for light infantry regiments.

        I think many LI regts got to do that, at least unofficially, such as the
        52nd, as the accoutrements for some reason in the British Army were ordered
        hung lower in the Nap/1812 Era than in the AWI, where everything was
        elbow-high. Running, as LI units did, makes everything flop about.
        >
        >Sorry have to go,
        >
        >Robert

        Good job!
        Roger Fuller
        >
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