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Re: Infantry equipment, lotsa questions

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  • Robert Van Patten
    What Paul says, as far as I know, is true although Duane s work is pure crap - radically deficient in Winfield Scott s opinion. Neither von Steuben nor
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 2 4:10 PM
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      What Paul says, as far as I know, is true although Duane's work is pure
      crap - "radically deficient" in Winfield Scott's opinion. Neither von
      Steuben nor Smyth, nor Potter mention powder horns nor do any mandate
      marching with the rifle at advance arms as does Duane. One must remember
      that Duane was a political appointee and crony of Jefferson's with
      absolutely no military experience.

      From a practical standpoint we have been advised by those far more
      experienced than we not to show up at a tactical using powder horns for
      obvious safety reasons. You chaps worry about a triple charged musket.
      Try thinking about a powder horn, forgetfully uncapped, drizzling a stream
      of powder to the ground in the spark-filled environment of a tactical. No
      thank you, thank you very much. Looks as if you have two votes for 24 round
      cartouches on the US side.

      van

      ----------
      > From: Paul W. Schulz <pwschulz@...>
      > To: WarOf1812@onelist.com
      > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Infantry equipment, lotsa questions
      > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 6:54 PM
      >
      > From: "Paul W. Schulz" <pwschulz@...>
      >
      > Mike,
      > Let me see if I can answer at least some of the questions you have on
      > the US stuff, one of the more informed members of the Crown forces will
      have
      > to step in on behalf of the King.
      >
      > How does the box and it's capacity differ with the American issue? Was
      > > there a standard issue for American regulars and the militia/volunteer
      > > units?
      >
      > Yes the US used the 1808 style over the shoulder box which was
      drilled
      > for 24 rounds in the block. Under the block was a three sectioned tin
      tray
      > accessible through a flap in the front which held tools and spare flints
      in
      > the middle and up to twelve extra rounds on their sides in the two side
      > sections.
      >
      > > Americans started with white? And moved to black? When and how
      > universally
      >
      > The US was regulated white belting. Very rarely was this ever managed.
      > Saddle leather was common from as far back as the 1790's. The only
      regiments
      > during the war that achieved the "desired" look enmass did so by white
      > washing the leather.
      >
      > > Did the light units on both sides have any unique cartridge boxes or
      gear?
      > > The 95th carried a small horn of fine priming powder, but did the US
      Rifle
      > > Regiment? Anyone still using belly boxes?
      >
      > Question 1: Despite my college's devotion to the regulations of General
      > Smyth there were actually four sets or regs that governed US troops
      during
      > the War. Von Stuben's, Duane's, Smyth's and the French 1791 Manual. All
      were
      > used by various units until about 1816 until the whole thing was totally
      > standardized by the War Department. While Smyth's does not call for the
      use
      > of a powder horn during loading it is mentioned in Duane's manual for
      > riflemen. Equipment records of the day indicate that the Rifle Rt.s in
      the
      > Army were issued a bullet bag a powder horn and a patch knife. They did
      also
      > carry a SOFT cartridge box on the belly for about ten to twenty
      pre-rolled
      > rounds (in tin tubes) of smaller caliber than their weapon for
      emergencies.
      > They were admonished not to use them as using the rifle as a musket
      fouled
      > it to the point of being unusable as as rifle until after cleaning.
      > Question 2: Yes, in addition to the Rifles the 4th was equipped with a
      belly
      > box from 1808 until about mid 1813. This was a personal quirk of the
      > Colonel's and not Army standard. The pattern was based on the Wayne's
      Legion
      > Box and may have even been surplus from 1794.
      >
      > > Did the American army have a standard issue canteen?
      >
      > Yes and no. The US put about four types of canteens into the field and
      which
      > part of the country you were in influenced which type of canteen that was
      > issued. Some, such as the NW Army's tin canteens dated back to the
      Rev-War.
      >
      > > Were there many cases on either side of an individual, as opposed to a
      > > city, raising a "corps" to fight and equipping them at his expense as
      we
      > > find in other times
      >
      > This was a more English practice than an American one, US Militia units
      did
      > as a rule draw from Federal Stores to make up for what the States did not
      > provide.
      >
      > > Was a breadbag or haversack a standard issue, or something the men
      > acquired?
      >
      > The Haversack for US regulars was a personally acquired item as the issue
      > back pack was designed to fill the role of the traditional "feedbag"
      > Soldiers however continued to "acquire" them as they began to be used
      more
      > for personal items.
      > The US issued the Lhebrette Style Back Pack which was a sectioned off
      canvas
      > envelope with storage in the flap and a blanket carried under the flap.
      It
      > was painted blue to waterproof it. As far as it being better than the
      > Trotter, well it is a damned site more comfortable. Other than that there
      is
      > no qualitative difference.
      >
      > > Did US forces have different weight and perhaps color trousers for
      winter
      > > vs. summer wear?
      >
      > Yes again Blue wool overalls (Green for Rifles) with black short gaiters
      > (overalls had a bit of white or yellow cord down the outside seam). White
      > linen trousers or overalls in the summer.
      >
      > Lt. Paul W. Schulz
      > Snelling's Co., 4th USI
      >
      >
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    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
      In a message dated 7/2/99 6:18:25 PM Central Daylight Time, orville@erinet.com writes:
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 2 6:40 PM
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        In a message dated 7/2/99 6:18:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
        orville@... writes:

        << You chaps worry about a triple charged musket.
        Try thinking about a powder horn, forgetfully uncapped, drizzling a stream
        of powder to the ground in the spark-filled environment of a tactical. >>

        Actually the correct type of military powder horn has a spring loaded stopper
        that dispenses the correct priming charge and automatically closes when
        released (a simple yet ingenious device.

        Cheers

        Tim
      • Robert Van Patten
        Pray, where does one obtain the correct type of military powder horn? ... stream ... stopper ... square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 2 6:57 PM
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          Pray, where does one obtain the correct type of military powder horn?

          ----------
          > From: BritcomHMP@...
          > To: WarOf1812@onelist.com
          > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Infantry equipment, lotsa questions
          > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:40 PM
          >
          > From: BritcomHMP@...
          >
          > In a message dated 7/2/99 6:18:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
          > orville@... writes:
          >
          > << You chaps worry about a triple charged musket.
          > Try thinking about a powder horn, forgetfully uncapped, drizzling a
          stream
          > of powder to the ground in the spark-filled environment of a tactical.
          >>
          >
          > Actually the correct type of military powder horn has a spring loaded
          stopper
          > that dispenses the correct priming charge and automatically closes when
          > released (a simple yet ingenious device.
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Tim
          >
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          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
          of square miles...
          >
        • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
          In a message dated 7/2/99 9:05:17 PM Central Daylight Time, orville@erinet.com writes:
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 3 6:21 AM
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            In a message dated 7/2/99 9:05:17 PM Central Daylight Time,
            orville@... writes:

            << Pray, where does one obtain the correct type of military powder horn? >>

            Dear Robert:
            I don't know that they are made commercially. In the UK the 95th, who had
            several gunsmiths in their ranks in the early days, used to make their own.
            However the mechanism is not overly complicated.

            Cheers

            Tim
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