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Re: Infantry equipment, lotsa questions

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  • Paul W. Schulz
    Mike, Let me see if I can answer at least some of the questions you have on the US stuff, one of the more informed members of the Crown forces will have to
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 2, 1999
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      Mike,
      Let me see if I can answer at least some of the questions you have on
      the US stuff, one of the more informed members of the Crown forces will have
      to step in on behalf of the King.

      How does the box and it's capacity differ with the American issue? Was
      > there a standard issue for American regulars and the militia/volunteer
      > units?

      Yes the US used the 1808 style over the shoulder box which was drilled
      for 24 rounds in the block. Under the block was a three sectioned tin tray
      accessible through a flap in the front which held tools and spare flints in
      the middle and up to twelve extra rounds on their sides in the two side
      sections.

      > Americans started with white? And moved to black? When and how
      universally

      The US was regulated white belting. Very rarely was this ever managed.
      Saddle leather was common from as far back as the 1790's. The only regiments
      during the war that achieved the "desired" look enmass did so by white
      washing the leather.

      > Did the light units on both sides have any unique cartridge boxes or gear?
      > The 95th carried a small horn of fine priming powder, but did the US Rifle
      > Regiment? Anyone still using belly boxes?

      Question 1: Despite my college's devotion to the regulations of General
      Smyth there were actually four sets or regs that governed US troops during
      the War. Von Stuben's, Duane's, Smyth's and the French 1791 Manual. All were
      used by various units until about 1816 until the whole thing was totally
      standardized by the War Department. While Smyth's does not call for the use
      of a powder horn during loading it is mentioned in Duane's manual for
      riflemen. Equipment records of the day indicate that the Rifle Rt.s in the
      Army were issued a bullet bag a powder horn and a patch knife. They did also
      carry a SOFT cartridge box on the belly for about ten to twenty pre-rolled
      rounds (in tin tubes) of smaller caliber than their weapon for emergencies.
      They were admonished not to use them as using the rifle as a musket fouled
      it to the point of being unusable as as rifle until after cleaning.
      Question 2: Yes, in addition to the Rifles the 4th was equipped with a belly
      box from 1808 until about mid 1813. This was a personal quirk of the
      Colonel's and not Army standard. The pattern was based on the Wayne's Legion
      Box and may have even been surplus from 1794.

      > Did the American army have a standard issue canteen?

      Yes and no. The US put about four types of canteens into the field and which
      part of the country you were in influenced which type of canteen that was
      issued. Some, such as the NW Army's tin canteens dated back to the Rev-War.

      > Were there many cases on either side of an individual, as opposed to a
      > city, raising a "corps" to fight and equipping them at his expense as we
      > find in other times

      This was a more English practice than an American one, US Militia units did
      as a rule draw from Federal Stores to make up for what the States did not
      provide.

      > Was a breadbag or haversack a standard issue, or something the men
      acquired?

      The Haversack for US regulars was a personally acquired item as the issue
      back pack was designed to fill the role of the traditional "feedbag"
      Soldiers however continued to "acquire" them as they began to be used more
      for personal items.
      The US issued the Lhebrette Style Back Pack which was a sectioned off canvas
      envelope with storage in the flap and a blanket carried under the flap. It
      was painted blue to waterproof it. As far as it being better than the
      Trotter, well it is a damned site more comfortable. Other than that there is
      no qualitative difference.

      > Did US forces have different weight and perhaps color trousers for winter
      > vs. summer wear?

      Yes again Blue wool overalls (Green for Rifles) with black short gaiters
      (overalls had a bit of white or yellow cord down the outside seam). White
      linen trousers or overalls in the summer.

      Lt. Paul W. Schulz
      Snelling's Co., 4th USI
    • Robert Van Patten
      What Paul says, as far as I know, is true although Duane s work is pure crap - radically deficient in Winfield Scott s opinion. Neither von Steuben nor
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 2, 1999
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        What Paul says, as far as I know, is true although Duane's work is pure
        crap - "radically deficient" in Winfield Scott's opinion. Neither von
        Steuben nor Smyth, nor Potter mention powder horns nor do any mandate
        marching with the rifle at advance arms as does Duane. One must remember
        that Duane was a political appointee and crony of Jefferson's with
        absolutely no military experience.

        From a practical standpoint we have been advised by those far more
        experienced than we not to show up at a tactical using powder horns for
        obvious safety reasons. You chaps worry about a triple charged musket.
        Try thinking about a powder horn, forgetfully uncapped, drizzling a stream
        of powder to the ground in the spark-filled environment of a tactical. No
        thank you, thank you very much. Looks as if you have two votes for 24 round
        cartouches on the US side.

        van

        ----------
        > From: Paul W. Schulz <pwschulz@...>
        > To: WarOf1812@onelist.com
        > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Infantry equipment, lotsa questions
        > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 6:54 PM
        >
        > From: "Paul W. Schulz" <pwschulz@...>
        >
        > Mike,
        > Let me see if I can answer at least some of the questions you have on
        > the US stuff, one of the more informed members of the Crown forces will
        have
        > to step in on behalf of the King.
        >
        > How does the box and it's capacity differ with the American issue? Was
        > > there a standard issue for American regulars and the militia/volunteer
        > > units?
        >
        > Yes the US used the 1808 style over the shoulder box which was
        drilled
        > for 24 rounds in the block. Under the block was a three sectioned tin
        tray
        > accessible through a flap in the front which held tools and spare flints
        in
        > the middle and up to twelve extra rounds on their sides in the two side
        > sections.
        >
        > > Americans started with white? And moved to black? When and how
        > universally
        >
        > The US was regulated white belting. Very rarely was this ever managed.
        > Saddle leather was common from as far back as the 1790's. The only
        regiments
        > during the war that achieved the "desired" look enmass did so by white
        > washing the leather.
        >
        > > Did the light units on both sides have any unique cartridge boxes or
        gear?
        > > The 95th carried a small horn of fine priming powder, but did the US
        Rifle
        > > Regiment? Anyone still using belly boxes?
        >
        > Question 1: Despite my college's devotion to the regulations of General
        > Smyth there were actually four sets or regs that governed US troops
        during
        > the War. Von Stuben's, Duane's, Smyth's and the French 1791 Manual. All
        were
        > used by various units until about 1816 until the whole thing was totally
        > standardized by the War Department. While Smyth's does not call for the
        use
        > of a powder horn during loading it is mentioned in Duane's manual for
        > riflemen. Equipment records of the day indicate that the Rifle Rt.s in
        the
        > Army were issued a bullet bag a powder horn and a patch knife. They did
        also
        > carry a SOFT cartridge box on the belly for about ten to twenty
        pre-rolled
        > rounds (in tin tubes) of smaller caliber than their weapon for
        emergencies.
        > They were admonished not to use them as using the rifle as a musket
        fouled
        > it to the point of being unusable as as rifle until after cleaning.
        > Question 2: Yes, in addition to the Rifles the 4th was equipped with a
        belly
        > box from 1808 until about mid 1813. This was a personal quirk of the
        > Colonel's and not Army standard. The pattern was based on the Wayne's
        Legion
        > Box and may have even been surplus from 1794.
        >
        > > Did the American army have a standard issue canteen?
        >
        > Yes and no. The US put about four types of canteens into the field and
        which
        > part of the country you were in influenced which type of canteen that was
        > issued. Some, such as the NW Army's tin canteens dated back to the
        Rev-War.
        >
        > > Were there many cases on either side of an individual, as opposed to a
        > > city, raising a "corps" to fight and equipping them at his expense as
        we
        > > find in other times
        >
        > This was a more English practice than an American one, US Militia units
        did
        > as a rule draw from Federal Stores to make up for what the States did not
        > provide.
        >
        > > Was a breadbag or haversack a standard issue, or something the men
        > acquired?
        >
        > The Haversack for US regulars was a personally acquired item as the issue
        > back pack was designed to fill the role of the traditional "feedbag"
        > Soldiers however continued to "acquire" them as they began to be used
        more
        > for personal items.
        > The US issued the Lhebrette Style Back Pack which was a sectioned off
        canvas
        > envelope with storage in the flap and a blanket carried under the flap.
        It
        > was painted blue to waterproof it. As far as it being better than the
        > Trotter, well it is a damned site more comfortable. Other than that there
        is
        > no qualitative difference.
        >
        > > Did US forces have different weight and perhaps color trousers for
        winter
        > > vs. summer wear?
        >
        > Yes again Blue wool overalls (Green for Rifles) with black short gaiters
        > (overalls had a bit of white or yellow cord down the outside seam). White
        > linen trousers or overalls in the summer.
        >
        > Lt. Paul W. Schulz
        > Snelling's Co., 4th USI
        >
        >
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      • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
        In a message dated 7/2/99 11:18:00 AM Central Daylight Time, mmathews@VAX2.WINONA.MSUS.EDU writes:
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 2, 1999
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          In a message dated 7/2/99 11:18:00 AM Central Daylight Time,
          mmathews@... writes:

          << Were there many cases on either side of an individual, as opposed to a
          city, raising a "corps" to fight and equipping them at his expense as we
          find in other times? If so, would they attempt to draw from army stores,
          or be creative in design and execution of uniform and gear? >>

          In England this happened with the Yeomanry (cavalry) and Volunteers
          (Infantry), they enlisted as a 'home guard' and supplied their own uniform
          and, in the case of the Yeomanry, horses. The Government furnished weapons
          and accouterments. The disbanding of these corps led to the early Victorian
          fashion of the families of their old Colonels of making large displays of the
          now obsolete arms on the walls of the ancestral home. (Which is doubtless
          where Williamsburg got the idea!)

          Cheers

          Tim
        • BritcomHMP@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/2/99 6:18:25 PM Central Daylight Time, orville@erinet.com writes:
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 2, 1999
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            In a message dated 7/2/99 6:18:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
            orville@... writes:

            << You chaps worry about a triple charged musket.
            Try thinking about a powder horn, forgetfully uncapped, drizzling a stream
            of powder to the ground in the spark-filled environment of a tactical. >>

            Actually the correct type of military powder horn has a spring loaded stopper
            that dispenses the correct priming charge and automatically closes when
            released (a simple yet ingenious device.

            Cheers

            Tim
          • Robert Van Patten
            Pray, where does one obtain the correct type of military powder horn? ... stream ... stopper ... square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 2, 1999
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              Pray, where does one obtain the correct type of military powder horn?

              ----------
              > From: BritcomHMP@...
              > To: WarOf1812@onelist.com
              > Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Infantry equipment, lotsa questions
              > Date: Friday, July 02, 1999 9:40 PM
              >
              > From: BritcomHMP@...
              >
              > In a message dated 7/2/99 6:18:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
              > orville@... writes:
              >
              > << You chaps worry about a triple charged musket.
              > Try thinking about a powder horn, forgetfully uncapped, drizzling a
              stream
              > of powder to the ground in the spark-filled environment of a tactical.
              >>
              >
              > Actually the correct type of military powder horn has a spring loaded
              stopper
              > that dispenses the correct priming charge and automatically closes when
              > released (a simple yet ingenious device.
              >
              > Cheers
              >
              > Tim
              >
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              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
              square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS
              of square miles...
              >
            • BritcomHMP@xxx.xxx
              In a message dated 7/2/99 9:05:17 PM Central Daylight Time, orville@erinet.com writes:
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 3, 1999
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                In a message dated 7/2/99 9:05:17 PM Central Daylight Time,
                orville@... writes:

                << Pray, where does one obtain the correct type of military powder horn? >>

                Dear Robert:
                I don't know that they are made commercially. In the UK the 95th, who had
                several gunsmiths in their ranks in the early days, used to make their own.
                However the mechanism is not overly complicated.

                Cheers

                Tim
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