Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?

Expand Messages
  • Larry Lozon
    From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


      Larry ,

      ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

      ____________________

      If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
      a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
      was found at:

      http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

      I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
      New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
      fighting today.

      As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
      possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
      I do not have their contact.

      Larry Lozon
    • Larry Lozon
      From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


        Larry ,

        ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

        ____________________

        If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
        a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
        was found at:

        http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

        I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
        New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
        fighting today.

        As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
        possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
        I do not have their contact.

        Larry Lozon
      • Larry Lozon
        From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


          Larry ,

          ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

          ____________________

          If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
          a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
          was found at:

          http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

          I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
          New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
          fighting today.

          As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
          possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
          I do not have their contact.

          Larry Lozon
        • Steve Abolt
          Dear List, Tracing Army lineage is a tricky and confusing business. So to answer my old pard Dave, he is both right and wrong. The tracing of US Army lineage
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear List,

            Tracing Army lineage is a tricky and confusing
            business. So to answer my old pard Dave, he is both
            right and wrong.

            The tracing of US Army lineage became a bone of
            contention in the latter part of the 19th century,
            more specifically in 1875.

            Much has been written on this subject and I will
            endeavor to be brief, thus avoiding a long post.

            After the War of 1812 the American Infantry was
            consolidated from 44 regiments to 8. The 7th INF
            which served at New Orleans was "mustered for
            selection" and some of its men went into the new 1st
            INF. A new 7th was created by mustering for selection
            men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF. While the men
            who originally served in the 7th regiment were now
            assigned new units, the Regiment numbered "7"
            continued to exist.

            In 1862 Army units were instructed to research their
            histories. At this time the War department officially
            credited the 7th INF for New Orleans and Ft. Harrison
            from the War of 1812. These were instructed to be
            painted on the Colors.

            As stated earlier by 1875 some in the Army began to
            argue that earlier lineage did not matter due to the
            reorganization of 1815.

            On October 30, 1896 the War Department decided that
            lineage would carry back to pre-1815 reorganization.

            In 1912 more agitation to stop the lineage at
            reorganization of 1815, occurred most specifiaclly in
            regards to the 1st,(Lundy's Lane) 4th (Tippecanoe) and
            7th (New Orleans.) US Infantries. A huge collection of
            correspondance detailing 7th INF lineage, traditions
            etc is located in the National Archives regarding this
            1912 question.

            Finally in 1920 the War Department stripped the 7th
            INF of its New Orleans Battle Honor awarding it
            instead to the 1st INF. I believe the same was done to
            the 1st in regards to Lundy's Lane and the 4th for
            Tippecanoe.

            When the War Department asked Col. Poor, then
            commanding the 1st INF his reaction to having the
            action of New Orleans credited to the 1st INF he
            wrote: "with regard to the attitude of the 1st
            Infantry, reply is made that it yields to the decision
            of the War Department but he opinion is practically
            unanimous that the rules laid down in Circular 89 W.D.
            1920, are unjust to most organizations and bring real
            satisfaction to none. I know of no facts connecting
            this regiment to the battle of New Orleans. The deeds
            of the 7th Infantry there should be an inspiration to
            the present day Army; but I feel sure that no officer
            or man of the 1st Infantry would think for a moment of
            claiming them as activities of this Regiment."

            When command of the 1st was changed in 1992 the next
            commander also re-echoed this sentiment.

            Finally on May 5, 1923 the War Department reversd
            itself again linking the first 7 regiments to their
            history prior to the reorganization of 1815. This in
            effect restored the New Orleans Streamer to the 7th
            INF. The Lundy's Lane Streamer to the 1st INF and the
            Tippecanoe Streamer to the 4th Infantry.

            This is the way it has stood since. Thus if you look
            at the 7th INF Colors today you will see streamers for
            not only New Orleans, but Canada. The 7th never was
            in Canada during the War of 1812. That streamer
            honors the lineage of the 8th and 20th INF's who were
            amalgamated in 1815. The 1st INF Colors carry Lundy's
            Lane, where they served with distinction, plus New
            Orleans, where the "1st" did not but the "7th" did.

            To quote a lime from a movie "Confusing, isn't it
            Dutchy?"

            Thus today's active duty 7th INF still links itself to
            New Orleans as does the 1st linking itself to Lundy's
            Lane.

            For an excellent study on this please see the
            "Infantry Journal Vol XXIII No. 2. August 1923.

            Warmest regards,
            Steve Abolt

            - ebclemson <ebclemson@...> wrote:
            > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Larry and
            > list,
            >
            > To make matters more confusing, after the war of
            > 1812, the Army's regiments were consolidated. The
            > modern 7th Infantry are not related to the 7th
            > during the War of 1812. For Example, the 1st Infy.
            > of 1812 were consolidated into the 3rd Infy. after
            > the War, and thus the tile of "The Old Guard."
            >
            > Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.


            =====
            Cottonbalers, By God!

            visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

            __________________________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
            http://tax.yahoo.com
          • PEGGY MATHEWS
            Um, this is the fourth time I ve gotten this message. Is there something goofy with the mailer or should I just say, point taken ? ;-) Michael ... From:
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Um, this is the fourth time I've gotten this message. Is there something
              goofy with the mailer or should I just say, "point taken"? ;-)

              Michael


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
              To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:00 AM
              Subject: [WarOf1812] How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?


              >
              >
              > From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>
              >
              >
              > Larry ,
              >
              > ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines
              >
              > ____________________
              >
              > If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
              > a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
              > was found at:
              >
              > http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/
              >
              > I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
              > New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
              > fighting today.
              >
              > As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
              > possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
              > I do not have their contact.
              >
              > Larry Lozon
            • Steve Abolt
              Ooops, A couple of typos in my previous post. Corrections are as follows: The new 7th was created from the 8th, 24th, and 39th. The command change of the
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Ooops,
                A couple of typos in my previous post. Corrections
                are as follows: The new 7th was created from the 8th,
                24th, and 39th. The command change of the 1st INF
                referred to took place in 1922 not 1992.

                All the best,
                S.
                --- Steve Abolt <sacbg7@...> wrote:
                A new 7th was created by mustering for
                > selection
                > men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF

                > When command of the 1st was changed in 1992 the next
                > commander also re-echoed this sentiment.


                =====
                Cottonbalers, By God!

                visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                __________________________________________________
                Do you Yahoo!?
                Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                http://tax.yahoo.com
              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:19:36 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment have an existence of its own or not? The
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:19:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  sacbg7@... writes:


                  > After the War of 1812 the American Infantry was
                  > consolidated from 44 regiments to 8. The 7th INF
                  > which served at New Orleans was "mustered for
                  > selection" and some of its men went into the new 1st
                  > INF. A new 7th was created by mustering for selection
                  > men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF. While the men
                  > who originally served in the 7th regiment were now
                  > assigned new units, the Regiment numbered "7"
                  > continued to exist.
                  >
                  >

                  I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment have an existence of its
                  own or not? The fact that all the men in a particular regiment get moved to
                  others does not mean that a regiment looses its history as long as it
                  continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment has been abolished then
                  for any other to claim its honours is rather like wearing someone else's
                  medals. That said of course a regiment can be re-raised.

                  Cheers

                  Tim


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ray Hobbs
                  Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are complicated, just check this out: Fielding s Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are
                    complicated, just check this out:

                    Fielding's Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the 41st
                    Regiment in 1751. On the 1760s it became a proper Line Regiment.
                    During the War of 1812 two battalions were raised, but were shortlived
                    as separate organizations, because they were combined at the end of
                    1813 - with a surfeit of officers.
                    In 1831 the regiment was named 'The Welch', but retained its number
                    '41'. In 1881 there were three battalions of the Welsh Regiment, the
                    second of which had once been the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment of Foot
                    raised in 1756, then renamed the 69th South Lincolnshire Regiment in
                    1758. the third Battalion, Welsh Regiment of 1881 had once been the
                    Royal Glamorgan Militia, raised in 1760, which had been renamed in 1812
                    as the Royal Glamorgan Light Infantry.
                    After 1887 there were four Volunteer Battalions of the Regiment, which
                    had their origins in the 1st Pembroke Volunteer Rifles, and the 1st,
                    2nd, 3rd Glamorgan Volunteer Rifles.
                    By 1908 all of the Battalions of the Regiment had bee renamed and
                    renumbered into the 1st and 2nd Battlions, the 3rd (Special Reserve)
                    Battalion, the 4th, 5th and 6th Battalions (Territorial Forces) and the
                    7th (Cyclist) Battalion (Territorial Forces). Of these the 4th
                    Battalion, for example, had gone through several lives as variations of
                    the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Pemrokeshire Volunteers, the 1st and 5th
                    Carmarthenshire Volunteers, the 1st Haverfordswest Volunteers - all
                    consolidated in 1880 into the 1st Pemrokeshire Vols.
                    the 2nd Battalion of the Territorials went on to become a Battalion of
                    the King's Shropshire Light Infantry in 1915 - similar to the 2/5th
                    which went into the Cheshire Regiment in 1915.
                    During WW1 the Regiment had 37 (!) battalions of varied strengths and
                    duties, and there were other Regiments attached to the Welsh Regimental
                    HQ, such as the Fishguard, Denbigh Volunteers, and the Glamorgan
                    Yeomanry, which for a few months was called 'The Imperial Glamorgan
                    Yeomanry'.
                    Between the wars and after WW2 the regiment was reduced to two
                    battalions, and in 1969 was combined with the South Wales Borderers,
                    once known as the 24th Regiment of Foot then the 2nd Warwickshire
                    Regiment before it became the SWB.
                    In 1969 a new Regiment, the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th/41st) was
                    established, and still exists.
                    This is by no means the least complicated of the British Regimental
                    Histories. I have left out much in the above summary.
                    Of course, any battle honours of the preceding regiments were now
                    transferred to the later ones. This why the Battle Honour "Waterloo"
                    is credited to the RRW, even though neither the 24th, nor the 41st were
                    at the battle. The 2nd 69th were, however present (The 1st 69th were
                    in the Far East). The 2nd 24th had had fine service in the Peninsula,
                    notably at Talavera, but had been sent home and were disbanded before
                    Waterloo.

                    So, the question "Who's your daddy?" is an extremely complicated one
                    when it comes to British Regimental Histories.

                    Ray Hobbs, Sgt
                    CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                    HQ Hamilton, Ontario

                    The Canadas 1799-1815

                    http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/index2.htm
                  • Steve Abolt
                    Tim, This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in 1923. It is this point that the article in the Infantry Journal discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Tim,
                      This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in
                      1923. It is this point that the article in the
                      "Infantry Journal" discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                      it all, when tracing the official lineage as provided
                      by today's DOD, they list it as 1812 and its lineage
                      as a company of the 8th INF. Basically they are
                      trying to "have their cake and eat it too."

                      At present the lineage is so disjointed the Army has
                      just decided to leave well enough alone. TX National
                      Guard Units run into the same problem.

                      Throughout its 19th century history the 7th INF
                      celebrated its role in the Battle of New Orleans. Even
                      today, on every January 8th there is a formal change
                      of command ceremony.

                      We were honored to have them at Chalmette as a
                      co-Color guard on two occasions. For the last three
                      years, due to the current world situation they have
                      not been able to attend.

                      I recently acquired two interesting bits of the
                      regiment's past, both mentioning their annual trooping
                      of the Colors and one small note about "The same
                      ceremony in use for the last 100 years." This note is
                      dated 1915. However, I have yet to find out exactly
                      what that ceremony is or was, as no one in the active
                      duty Battalions has any knowledge of it.

                      I am also currently trying to obtain copies of the
                      original daybooks for the 1820-40 time period to see
                      what, if anything is listed for the 8th of January.

                      All the best,
                      S.

                      --- BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                      >
                      > I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment
                      > have an existence of its
                      > own or not? The fact that all the men in a
                      > particular regiment get moved to
                      > others does not mean that a regiment looses its
                      > history as long as it
                      > continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment
                      > has been abolished then
                      > for any other to claim its honours is rather like
                      > wearing someone else's
                      > medals. That said of course a regiment can be
                      > re-raised.
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >
                      > Tim
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >


                      =====
                      Cottonbalers, By God!

                      visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do you Yahoo!?
                      Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                      http://tax.yahoo.com
                    • Peter Catley
                      Now, this I understood :-) Want to get confused then trace the Regiments that now make up the Royal Anglian Regiment!! Cheers P** ... From: Ray Hobbs
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Now, this I understood :-)

                        Want to get confused then trace the Regiments that now make up the Royal
                        Anglian Regiment!!

                        Cheers

                        P**
                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Ray Hobbs [mailto:ray.hobbs@...]
                        Sent: 07 April 2003 19:17
                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?




                        Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are
                        complicated, just check this out:

                        Fielding's Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the 41st
                        Regiment in 1751. On the 1760s it became a proper Line Regiment.
                        During the War of 1812 two battalions were raised, but were shortlived
                        as separate organizations, because they were combined at the end of
                        1813 - with a surfeit of officers. ................

                        So, the question "Who's your daddy?" is an extremely complicated one
                        when it comes to British Regimental Histories.

                        Ray Hobbs, Sgt
                        CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                        HQ Hamilton, Ontario

                        The Canadas 1799-1815

                        http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/index2.htm


                        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



                        The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                        square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                        square miles...

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ebclemson
                        Steve and Tim, No disagreement here. However, the Official U.S. Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S. Government book stores today, will State
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Steve and Tim,

                          No disagreement here. However, the "Official" U.S. Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S. Government book stores today, will State that the Third Infantry "official" lineage is from the 1st Infantry, and so on and so on. Each Battalion of the 3rd for example, traces exactly back to each company of the 1815 regiment. Company A, B, C, etc. The pre-1815 army did not have Letter company designations, each company was known for their Captain.

                          I agree that the Army Lineage takes credit from the Pre-War regiment and the pre-war regiments that were consolidated into the Post war regiment. The regiments were assigned to the senoirity of the Col. commanding. Thus the Senoir Col. received the Post War 1st Infy., the next senoir the 2nd, and so on.

                          The Third Infantry today traces their history to the formation of the "First American regiment".

                          I personally agree that the regiment is the regiment is the regiment. "Have your Cake and eat it to." Yep, must be an Army Motto!

                          Steve, received our new First Infantry Regimental Color and it is terrific! Can't wait to honor it in the company of the 7th's Regimental & Standard!

                          Will we see you in April?

                          Your Pard, Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.




                          Abolt <sacbg7@y...> wrote:
                          > Tim,
                          > This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in
                          > 1923. It is this point that the article in the
                          > "Infantry Journal" discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                          > it all, when tracing the official lineage as provided
                          > by today's DOD, they list it as 1812 and its lineage
                          > as a company of the 8th INF. Basically they are
                          > trying to "have their cake and eat it too."
                          >
                          > At present the lineage is so disjointed the Army has
                          > just decided to leave well enough alone. TX National
                          > Guard Units run into the same problem.
                          >
                          > Throughout its 19th century history the 7th INF
                          > celebrated its role in the Battle of New Orleans. Even
                          > today, on every January 8th there is a formal change
                          > of command ceremony.
                          >
                          > We were honored to have them at Chalmette as a
                          > co-Color guard on two occasions. For the last three
                          > years, due to the current world situation they have
                          > not been able to attend.
                          >
                          > I recently acquired two interesting bits of the
                          > regiment's past, both mentioning their annual trooping
                          > of the Colors and one small note about "The same
                          > ceremony in use for the last 100 years." This note is
                          > dated 1915. However, I have yet to find out exactly
                          > what that ceremony is or was, as no one in the active
                          > duty Battalions has any knowledge of it.
                          >
                          > I am also currently trying to obtain copies of the
                          > original daybooks for the 1820-40 time period to see
                          > what, if anything is listed for the 8th of January.
                          >
                          > All the best,
                          > S.
                          >
                          > --- BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment
                          > > have an existence of its
                          > > own or not? The fact that all the men in a
                          > > particular regiment get moved to
                          > > others does not mean that a regiment looses its
                          > > history as long as it
                          > > continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment
                          > > has been abolished then
                          > > for any other to claim its honours is rather like
                          > > wearing someone else's
                          > > medals. That said of course a regiment can be
                          > > re-raised.
                          > >
                          > > Cheers
                          > >
                          > > Tim
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > > removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > =====
                          > Cottonbalers, By God!
                          >
                          > visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net
                          >
                          > __________________________________________________
                          > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                          > http://tax.yahoo.com
                        • Steve Abolt
                          David, Another excellent book on Army Lineage and Battle Honors is published by the Department of Defense. It attempts to address many of the issues dicussed
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 8, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            David,

                            Another excellent book on Army Lineage and Battle
                            Honors is published by the Department of Defense. It
                            attempts to address many of the issues dicussed in the
                            earlier posts.

                            My heartiest congratulations on the new stand of
                            Colors!!!!

                            What an honor to have them unfurled once again.

                            Still working on April. Keep your fingers crossed.

                            All the best,
                            S.
                            --- ebclemson <ebclemson@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Steve and Tim,
                            >
                            > No disagreement here. However, the "Official" U.S.
                            > Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S.
                            > Government book stores today, > Steve, received
                            our new First Infantry Regimental
                            > Color and it is terrific! Can't wait to honor it in
                            > the company of the 7th's Regimental & Standard!
                            >
                            > Will we see you in April?
                            >
                            > Your Pard, Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri
                            > Rangers.
                            >


                            =====
                            Cottonbalers, By God!

                            visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                            __________________________________________________
                            Do you Yahoo!?
                            Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                            http://tax.yahoo.com
                          • HQ93rd@aol.com
                            With all this muddled and befuddled tracing of units lineages, I feel safe to say: We is glad to be in the 93rd! (And, oh yes, I am quite aware of 1881,
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 9, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              With all this muddled and befuddled tracing of units' lineages, I feel safe
                              to say:
                              We is glad to be in the 93rd!
                              (And, oh yes, I am quite aware of 1881, Singapore, and the early 1960s.)

                              B
                              93rd SHRoFLHU
                              THE Thin Red Line
                              www.93rdhighlanders.com



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.