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How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?

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  • Larry Lozon
    From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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      From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


      Larry ,

      ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

      ____________________

      If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
      a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
      was found at:

      http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

      I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
      New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
      fighting today.

      As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
      possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
      I do not have their contact.

      Larry Lozon
    • Larry Lozon
      From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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        From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


        Larry ,

        ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

        ____________________

        If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
        a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
        was found at:

        http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

        I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
        New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
        fighting today.

        As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
        possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
        I do not have their contact.

        Larry Lozon
      • Larry Lozon
        From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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          From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


          Larry ,

          ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

          ____________________

          If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
          a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
          was found at:

          http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

          I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
          New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
          fighting today.

          As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
          possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
          I do not have their contact.

          Larry Lozon
        • Larry Lozon
          From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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            From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


            Larry ,

            ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

            ____________________

            If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
            a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
            was found at:

            http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

            I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
            New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
            fighting today.

            As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
            possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
            I do not have their contact.

            Larry Lozon
          • Steve Abolt
            Dear List, Tracing Army lineage is a tricky and confusing business. So to answer my old pard Dave, he is both right and wrong. The tracing of US Army lineage
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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              Dear List,

              Tracing Army lineage is a tricky and confusing
              business. So to answer my old pard Dave, he is both
              right and wrong.

              The tracing of US Army lineage became a bone of
              contention in the latter part of the 19th century,
              more specifically in 1875.

              Much has been written on this subject and I will
              endeavor to be brief, thus avoiding a long post.

              After the War of 1812 the American Infantry was
              consolidated from 44 regiments to 8. The 7th INF
              which served at New Orleans was "mustered for
              selection" and some of its men went into the new 1st
              INF. A new 7th was created by mustering for selection
              men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF. While the men
              who originally served in the 7th regiment were now
              assigned new units, the Regiment numbered "7"
              continued to exist.

              In 1862 Army units were instructed to research their
              histories. At this time the War department officially
              credited the 7th INF for New Orleans and Ft. Harrison
              from the War of 1812. These were instructed to be
              painted on the Colors.

              As stated earlier by 1875 some in the Army began to
              argue that earlier lineage did not matter due to the
              reorganization of 1815.

              On October 30, 1896 the War Department decided that
              lineage would carry back to pre-1815 reorganization.

              In 1912 more agitation to stop the lineage at
              reorganization of 1815, occurred most specifiaclly in
              regards to the 1st,(Lundy's Lane) 4th (Tippecanoe) and
              7th (New Orleans.) US Infantries. A huge collection of
              correspondance detailing 7th INF lineage, traditions
              etc is located in the National Archives regarding this
              1912 question.

              Finally in 1920 the War Department stripped the 7th
              INF of its New Orleans Battle Honor awarding it
              instead to the 1st INF. I believe the same was done to
              the 1st in regards to Lundy's Lane and the 4th for
              Tippecanoe.

              When the War Department asked Col. Poor, then
              commanding the 1st INF his reaction to having the
              action of New Orleans credited to the 1st INF he
              wrote: "with regard to the attitude of the 1st
              Infantry, reply is made that it yields to the decision
              of the War Department but he opinion is practically
              unanimous that the rules laid down in Circular 89 W.D.
              1920, are unjust to most organizations and bring real
              satisfaction to none. I know of no facts connecting
              this regiment to the battle of New Orleans. The deeds
              of the 7th Infantry there should be an inspiration to
              the present day Army; but I feel sure that no officer
              or man of the 1st Infantry would think for a moment of
              claiming them as activities of this Regiment."

              When command of the 1st was changed in 1992 the next
              commander also re-echoed this sentiment.

              Finally on May 5, 1923 the War Department reversd
              itself again linking the first 7 regiments to their
              history prior to the reorganization of 1815. This in
              effect restored the New Orleans Streamer to the 7th
              INF. The Lundy's Lane Streamer to the 1st INF and the
              Tippecanoe Streamer to the 4th Infantry.

              This is the way it has stood since. Thus if you look
              at the 7th INF Colors today you will see streamers for
              not only New Orleans, but Canada. The 7th never was
              in Canada during the War of 1812. That streamer
              honors the lineage of the 8th and 20th INF's who were
              amalgamated in 1815. The 1st INF Colors carry Lundy's
              Lane, where they served with distinction, plus New
              Orleans, where the "1st" did not but the "7th" did.

              To quote a lime from a movie "Confusing, isn't it
              Dutchy?"

              Thus today's active duty 7th INF still links itself to
              New Orleans as does the 1st linking itself to Lundy's
              Lane.

              For an excellent study on this please see the
              "Infantry Journal Vol XXIII No. 2. August 1923.

              Warmest regards,
              Steve Abolt

              - ebclemson <ebclemson@...> wrote:
              > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Larry and
              > list,
              >
              > To make matters more confusing, after the war of
              > 1812, the Army's regiments were consolidated. The
              > modern 7th Infantry are not related to the 7th
              > during the War of 1812. For Example, the 1st Infy.
              > of 1812 were consolidated into the 3rd Infy. after
              > the War, and thus the tile of "The Old Guard."
              >
              > Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.


              =====
              Cottonbalers, By God!

              visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

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            • PEGGY MATHEWS
              Um, this is the fourth time I ve gotten this message. Is there something goofy with the mailer or should I just say, point taken ? ;-) Michael ... From:
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                Um, this is the fourth time I've gotten this message. Is there something
                goofy with the mailer or should I just say, "point taken"? ;-)

                Michael


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
                To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:00 AM
                Subject: [WarOf1812] How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?


                >
                >
                > From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>
                >
                >
                > Larry ,
                >
                > ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines
                >
                > ____________________
                >
                > If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
                > a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
                > was found at:
                >
                > http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/
                >
                > I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
                > New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
                > fighting today.
                >
                > As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
                > possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
                > I do not have their contact.
                >
                > Larry Lozon
              • Steve Abolt
                Ooops, A couple of typos in my previous post. Corrections are as follows: The new 7th was created from the 8th, 24th, and 39th. The command change of the
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                  Ooops,
                  A couple of typos in my previous post. Corrections
                  are as follows: The new 7th was created from the 8th,
                  24th, and 39th. The command change of the 1st INF
                  referred to took place in 1922 not 1992.

                  All the best,
                  S.
                  --- Steve Abolt <sacbg7@...> wrote:
                  A new 7th was created by mustering for
                  > selection
                  > men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF

                  > When command of the 1st was changed in 1992 the next
                  > commander also re-echoed this sentiment.


                  =====
                  Cottonbalers, By God!

                  visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

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                • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                  In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:19:36 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment have an existence of its own or not? The
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                    In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:19:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
                    sacbg7@... writes:


                    > After the War of 1812 the American Infantry was
                    > consolidated from 44 regiments to 8. The 7th INF
                    > which served at New Orleans was "mustered for
                    > selection" and some of its men went into the new 1st
                    > INF. A new 7th was created by mustering for selection
                    > men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF. While the men
                    > who originally served in the 7th regiment were now
                    > assigned new units, the Regiment numbered "7"
                    > continued to exist.
                    >
                    >

                    I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment have an existence of its
                    own or not? The fact that all the men in a particular regiment get moved to
                    others does not mean that a regiment looses its history as long as it
                    continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment has been abolished then
                    for any other to claim its honours is rather like wearing someone else's
                    medals. That said of course a regiment can be re-raised.

                    Cheers

                    Tim


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ray Hobbs
                    Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are complicated, just check this out: Fielding s Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                      Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are
                      complicated, just check this out:

                      Fielding's Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the 41st
                      Regiment in 1751. On the 1760s it became a proper Line Regiment.
                      During the War of 1812 two battalions were raised, but were shortlived
                      as separate organizations, because they were combined at the end of
                      1813 - with a surfeit of officers.
                      In 1831 the regiment was named 'The Welch', but retained its number
                      '41'. In 1881 there were three battalions of the Welsh Regiment, the
                      second of which had once been the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment of Foot
                      raised in 1756, then renamed the 69th South Lincolnshire Regiment in
                      1758. the third Battalion, Welsh Regiment of 1881 had once been the
                      Royal Glamorgan Militia, raised in 1760, which had been renamed in 1812
                      as the Royal Glamorgan Light Infantry.
                      After 1887 there were four Volunteer Battalions of the Regiment, which
                      had their origins in the 1st Pembroke Volunteer Rifles, and the 1st,
                      2nd, 3rd Glamorgan Volunteer Rifles.
                      By 1908 all of the Battalions of the Regiment had bee renamed and
                      renumbered into the 1st and 2nd Battlions, the 3rd (Special Reserve)
                      Battalion, the 4th, 5th and 6th Battalions (Territorial Forces) and the
                      7th (Cyclist) Battalion (Territorial Forces). Of these the 4th
                      Battalion, for example, had gone through several lives as variations of
                      the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Pemrokeshire Volunteers, the 1st and 5th
                      Carmarthenshire Volunteers, the 1st Haverfordswest Volunteers - all
                      consolidated in 1880 into the 1st Pemrokeshire Vols.
                      the 2nd Battalion of the Territorials went on to become a Battalion of
                      the King's Shropshire Light Infantry in 1915 - similar to the 2/5th
                      which went into the Cheshire Regiment in 1915.
                      During WW1 the Regiment had 37 (!) battalions of varied strengths and
                      duties, and there were other Regiments attached to the Welsh Regimental
                      HQ, such as the Fishguard, Denbigh Volunteers, and the Glamorgan
                      Yeomanry, which for a few months was called 'The Imperial Glamorgan
                      Yeomanry'.
                      Between the wars and after WW2 the regiment was reduced to two
                      battalions, and in 1969 was combined with the South Wales Borderers,
                      once known as the 24th Regiment of Foot then the 2nd Warwickshire
                      Regiment before it became the SWB.
                      In 1969 a new Regiment, the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th/41st) was
                      established, and still exists.
                      This is by no means the least complicated of the British Regimental
                      Histories. I have left out much in the above summary.
                      Of course, any battle honours of the preceding regiments were now
                      transferred to the later ones. This why the Battle Honour "Waterloo"
                      is credited to the RRW, even though neither the 24th, nor the 41st were
                      at the battle. The 2nd 69th were, however present (The 1st 69th were
                      in the Far East). The 2nd 24th had had fine service in the Peninsula,
                      notably at Talavera, but had been sent home and were disbanded before
                      Waterloo.

                      So, the question "Who's your daddy?" is an extremely complicated one
                      when it comes to British Regimental Histories.

                      Ray Hobbs, Sgt
                      CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                      HQ Hamilton, Ontario

                      The Canadas 1799-1815

                      http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/index2.htm
                    • Steve Abolt
                      Tim, This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in 1923. It is this point that the article in the Infantry Journal discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                        Tim,
                        This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in
                        1923. It is this point that the article in the
                        "Infantry Journal" discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                        it all, when tracing the official lineage as provided
                        by today's DOD, they list it as 1812 and its lineage
                        as a company of the 8th INF. Basically they are
                        trying to "have their cake and eat it too."

                        At present the lineage is so disjointed the Army has
                        just decided to leave well enough alone. TX National
                        Guard Units run into the same problem.

                        Throughout its 19th century history the 7th INF
                        celebrated its role in the Battle of New Orleans. Even
                        today, on every January 8th there is a formal change
                        of command ceremony.

                        We were honored to have them at Chalmette as a
                        co-Color guard on two occasions. For the last three
                        years, due to the current world situation they have
                        not been able to attend.

                        I recently acquired two interesting bits of the
                        regiment's past, both mentioning their annual trooping
                        of the Colors and one small note about "The same
                        ceremony in use for the last 100 years." This note is
                        dated 1915. However, I have yet to find out exactly
                        what that ceremony is or was, as no one in the active
                        duty Battalions has any knowledge of it.

                        I am also currently trying to obtain copies of the
                        original daybooks for the 1820-40 time period to see
                        what, if anything is listed for the 8th of January.

                        All the best,
                        S.

                        --- BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                        >
                        > I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment
                        > have an existence of its
                        > own or not? The fact that all the men in a
                        > particular regiment get moved to
                        > others does not mean that a regiment looses its
                        > history as long as it
                        > continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment
                        > has been abolished then
                        > for any other to claim its honours is rather like
                        > wearing someone else's
                        > medals. That said of course a regiment can be
                        > re-raised.
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >


                        =====
                        Cottonbalers, By God!

                        visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                        __________________________________________________
                        Do you Yahoo!?
                        Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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                      • Peter Catley
                        Now, this I understood :-) Want to get confused then trace the Regiments that now make up the Royal Anglian Regiment!! Cheers P** ... From: Ray Hobbs
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                          Now, this I understood :-)

                          Want to get confused then trace the Regiments that now make up the Royal
                          Anglian Regiment!!

                          Cheers

                          P**
                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Ray Hobbs [mailto:ray.hobbs@...]
                          Sent: 07 April 2003 19:17
                          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?




                          Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are
                          complicated, just check this out:

                          Fielding's Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the 41st
                          Regiment in 1751. On the 1760s it became a proper Line Regiment.
                          During the War of 1812 two battalions were raised, but were shortlived
                          as separate organizations, because they were combined at the end of
                          1813 - with a surfeit of officers. ................

                          So, the question "Who's your daddy?" is an extremely complicated one
                          when it comes to British Regimental Histories.

                          Ray Hobbs, Sgt
                          CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                          HQ Hamilton, Ontario

                          The Canadas 1799-1815

                          http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/index2.htm


                          Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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                          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                          square miles...

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • ebclemson
                          Steve and Tim, No disagreement here. However, the Official U.S. Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S. Government book stores today, will State
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                            Steve and Tim,

                            No disagreement here. However, the "Official" U.S. Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S. Government book stores today, will State that the Third Infantry "official" lineage is from the 1st Infantry, and so on and so on. Each Battalion of the 3rd for example, traces exactly back to each company of the 1815 regiment. Company A, B, C, etc. The pre-1815 army did not have Letter company designations, each company was known for their Captain.

                            I agree that the Army Lineage takes credit from the Pre-War regiment and the pre-war regiments that were consolidated into the Post war regiment. The regiments were assigned to the senoirity of the Col. commanding. Thus the Senoir Col. received the Post War 1st Infy., the next senoir the 2nd, and so on.

                            The Third Infantry today traces their history to the formation of the "First American regiment".

                            I personally agree that the regiment is the regiment is the regiment. "Have your Cake and eat it to." Yep, must be an Army Motto!

                            Steve, received our new First Infantry Regimental Color and it is terrific! Can't wait to honor it in the company of the 7th's Regimental & Standard!

                            Will we see you in April?

                            Your Pard, Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.




                            Abolt <sacbg7@y...> wrote:
                            > Tim,
                            > This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in
                            > 1923. It is this point that the article in the
                            > "Infantry Journal" discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                            > it all, when tracing the official lineage as provided
                            > by today's DOD, they list it as 1812 and its lineage
                            > as a company of the 8th INF. Basically they are
                            > trying to "have their cake and eat it too."
                            >
                            > At present the lineage is so disjointed the Army has
                            > just decided to leave well enough alone. TX National
                            > Guard Units run into the same problem.
                            >
                            > Throughout its 19th century history the 7th INF
                            > celebrated its role in the Battle of New Orleans. Even
                            > today, on every January 8th there is a formal change
                            > of command ceremony.
                            >
                            > We were honored to have them at Chalmette as a
                            > co-Color guard on two occasions. For the last three
                            > years, due to the current world situation they have
                            > not been able to attend.
                            >
                            > I recently acquired two interesting bits of the
                            > regiment's past, both mentioning their annual trooping
                            > of the Colors and one small note about "The same
                            > ceremony in use for the last 100 years." This note is
                            > dated 1915. However, I have yet to find out exactly
                            > what that ceremony is or was, as no one in the active
                            > duty Battalions has any knowledge of it.
                            >
                            > I am also currently trying to obtain copies of the
                            > original daybooks for the 1820-40 time period to see
                            > what, if anything is listed for the 8th of January.
                            >
                            > All the best,
                            > S.
                            >
                            > --- BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment
                            > > have an existence of its
                            > > own or not? The fact that all the men in a
                            > > particular regiment get moved to
                            > > others does not mean that a regiment looses its
                            > > history as long as it
                            > > continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment
                            > > has been abolished then
                            > > for any other to claim its honours is rather like
                            > > wearing someone else's
                            > > medals. That said of course a regiment can be
                            > > re-raised.
                            > >
                            > > Cheers
                            > >
                            > > Tim
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            > > removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            > =====
                            > Cottonbalers, By God!
                            >
                            > visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________
                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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                          • Steve Abolt
                            David, Another excellent book on Army Lineage and Battle Honors is published by the Department of Defense. It attempts to address many of the issues dicussed
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 8, 2003
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                              David,

                              Another excellent book on Army Lineage and Battle
                              Honors is published by the Department of Defense. It
                              attempts to address many of the issues dicussed in the
                              earlier posts.

                              My heartiest congratulations on the new stand of
                              Colors!!!!

                              What an honor to have them unfurled once again.

                              Still working on April. Keep your fingers crossed.

                              All the best,
                              S.
                              --- ebclemson <ebclemson@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Steve and Tim,
                              >
                              > No disagreement here. However, the "Official" U.S.
                              > Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S.
                              > Government book stores today, > Steve, received
                              our new First Infantry Regimental
                              > Color and it is terrific! Can't wait to honor it in
                              > the company of the 7th's Regimental & Standard!
                              >
                              > Will we see you in April?
                              >
                              > Your Pard, Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri
                              > Rangers.
                              >


                              =====
                              Cottonbalers, By God!

                              visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                              __________________________________________________
                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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                            • HQ93rd@aol.com
                              With all this muddled and befuddled tracing of units lineages, I feel safe to say: We is glad to be in the 93rd! (And, oh yes, I am quite aware of 1881,
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 9, 2003
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                                With all this muddled and befuddled tracing of units' lineages, I feel safe
                                to say:
                                We is glad to be in the 93rd!
                                (And, oh yes, I am quite aware of 1881, Singapore, and the early 1960s.)

                                B
                                93rd SHRoFLHU
                                THE Thin Red Line
                                www.93rdhighlanders.com



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