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Re: [WarOf1812] How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?

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  • Annette and Lloyd
    Larry , The explanation of the breakdown of U.S. Army units was very interesting .I had wondered for some time about the large differences in numbering of
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 6 7:55 PM
      Larry ,
      The explanation of the breakdown of U.S. Army units was very interesting .I
      had wondered for some time about the large differences in numbering of units
      ,
      Thank You .
      Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ,I have herd the
      news refer to the 1st Marine Division ,then their was mention of such Marine
      units 1/7 ,2/9 and 3/26 I believe in referece to Battalion and Regiment ,the
      system for Marine Corps must differ totally from Army also they don't seem
      to ware patches ,like the Army that differentiate them from one unit to
      another , how do they tell themselves apart ? I dont mean rank wise but
      unit to unit ?
      agower@...
    • Larry Lozon
      From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 7 6:00 AM
        From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


        Larry ,

        ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

        ____________________

        If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
        a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
        was found at:

        http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

        I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
        New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
        fighting today.

        As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
        possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
        I do not have their contact.

        Larry Lozon
      • Larry Lozon
        From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 7 6:00 AM
          From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


          Larry ,

          ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

          ____________________

          If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
          a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
          was found at:

          http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

          I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
          New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
          fighting today.

          As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
          possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
          I do not have their contact.

          Larry Lozon
        • Larry Lozon
          From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 7 6:00 AM
            From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


            Larry ,

            ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

            ____________________

            If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
            a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
            was found at:

            http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

            I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
            New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
            fighting today.

            As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
            possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
            I do not have their contact.

            Larry Lozon
          • Larry Lozon
            From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 7 6:00 AM
              From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


              Larry ,

              ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

              ____________________

              If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
              a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
              was found at:

              http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

              I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
              New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
              fighting today.

              As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
              possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
              I do not have their contact.

              Larry Lozon
            • Steve Abolt
              Dear List, Tracing Army lineage is a tricky and confusing business. So to answer my old pard Dave, he is both right and wrong. The tracing of US Army lineage
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 7 8:17 AM
                Dear List,

                Tracing Army lineage is a tricky and confusing
                business. So to answer my old pard Dave, he is both
                right and wrong.

                The tracing of US Army lineage became a bone of
                contention in the latter part of the 19th century,
                more specifically in 1875.

                Much has been written on this subject and I will
                endeavor to be brief, thus avoiding a long post.

                After the War of 1812 the American Infantry was
                consolidated from 44 regiments to 8. The 7th INF
                which served at New Orleans was "mustered for
                selection" and some of its men went into the new 1st
                INF. A new 7th was created by mustering for selection
                men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF. While the men
                who originally served in the 7th regiment were now
                assigned new units, the Regiment numbered "7"
                continued to exist.

                In 1862 Army units were instructed to research their
                histories. At this time the War department officially
                credited the 7th INF for New Orleans and Ft. Harrison
                from the War of 1812. These were instructed to be
                painted on the Colors.

                As stated earlier by 1875 some in the Army began to
                argue that earlier lineage did not matter due to the
                reorganization of 1815.

                On October 30, 1896 the War Department decided that
                lineage would carry back to pre-1815 reorganization.

                In 1912 more agitation to stop the lineage at
                reorganization of 1815, occurred most specifiaclly in
                regards to the 1st,(Lundy's Lane) 4th (Tippecanoe) and
                7th (New Orleans.) US Infantries. A huge collection of
                correspondance detailing 7th INF lineage, traditions
                etc is located in the National Archives regarding this
                1912 question.

                Finally in 1920 the War Department stripped the 7th
                INF of its New Orleans Battle Honor awarding it
                instead to the 1st INF. I believe the same was done to
                the 1st in regards to Lundy's Lane and the 4th for
                Tippecanoe.

                When the War Department asked Col. Poor, then
                commanding the 1st INF his reaction to having the
                action of New Orleans credited to the 1st INF he
                wrote: "with regard to the attitude of the 1st
                Infantry, reply is made that it yields to the decision
                of the War Department but he opinion is practically
                unanimous that the rules laid down in Circular 89 W.D.
                1920, are unjust to most organizations and bring real
                satisfaction to none. I know of no facts connecting
                this regiment to the battle of New Orleans. The deeds
                of the 7th Infantry there should be an inspiration to
                the present day Army; but I feel sure that no officer
                or man of the 1st Infantry would think for a moment of
                claiming them as activities of this Regiment."

                When command of the 1st was changed in 1992 the next
                commander also re-echoed this sentiment.

                Finally on May 5, 1923 the War Department reversd
                itself again linking the first 7 regiments to their
                history prior to the reorganization of 1815. This in
                effect restored the New Orleans Streamer to the 7th
                INF. The Lundy's Lane Streamer to the 1st INF and the
                Tippecanoe Streamer to the 4th Infantry.

                This is the way it has stood since. Thus if you look
                at the 7th INF Colors today you will see streamers for
                not only New Orleans, but Canada. The 7th never was
                in Canada during the War of 1812. That streamer
                honors the lineage of the 8th and 20th INF's who were
                amalgamated in 1815. The 1st INF Colors carry Lundy's
                Lane, where they served with distinction, plus New
                Orleans, where the "1st" did not but the "7th" did.

                To quote a lime from a movie "Confusing, isn't it
                Dutchy?"

                Thus today's active duty 7th INF still links itself to
                New Orleans as does the 1st linking itself to Lundy's
                Lane.

                For an excellent study on this please see the
                "Infantry Journal Vol XXIII No. 2. August 1923.

                Warmest regards,
                Steve Abolt

                - ebclemson <ebclemson@...> wrote:
                > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Larry and
                > list,
                >
                > To make matters more confusing, after the war of
                > 1812, the Army's regiments were consolidated. The
                > modern 7th Infantry are not related to the 7th
                > during the War of 1812. For Example, the 1st Infy.
                > of 1812 were consolidated into the 3rd Infy. after
                > the War, and thus the tile of "The Old Guard."
                >
                > Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.


                =====
                Cottonbalers, By God!

                visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

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              • PEGGY MATHEWS
                Um, this is the fourth time I ve gotten this message. Is there something goofy with the mailer or should I just say, point taken ? ;-) Michael ... From:
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 7 9:49 AM
                  Um, this is the fourth time I've gotten this message. Is there something
                  goofy with the mailer or should I just say, "point taken"? ;-)

                  Michael


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
                  To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:00 AM
                  Subject: [WarOf1812] How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?


                  >
                  >
                  > From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>
                  >
                  >
                  > Larry ,
                  >
                  > ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines
                  >
                  > ____________________
                  >
                  > If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
                  > a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
                  > was found at:
                  >
                  > http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/
                  >
                  > I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
                  > New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
                  > fighting today.
                  >
                  > As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
                  > possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
                  > I do not have their contact.
                  >
                  > Larry Lozon
                • Steve Abolt
                  Ooops, A couple of typos in my previous post. Corrections are as follows: The new 7th was created from the 8th, 24th, and 39th. The command change of the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 7 9:51 AM
                    Ooops,
                    A couple of typos in my previous post. Corrections
                    are as follows: The new 7th was created from the 8th,
                    24th, and 39th. The command change of the 1st INF
                    referred to took place in 1922 not 1992.

                    All the best,
                    S.
                    --- Steve Abolt <sacbg7@...> wrote:
                    A new 7th was created by mustering for
                    > selection
                    > men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF

                    > When command of the 1st was changed in 1992 the next
                    > commander also re-echoed this sentiment.


                    =====
                    Cottonbalers, By God!

                    visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

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                  • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                    In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:19:36 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment have an existence of its own or not? The
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 7 10:48 AM
                      In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:19:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
                      sacbg7@... writes:


                      > After the War of 1812 the American Infantry was
                      > consolidated from 44 regiments to 8. The 7th INF
                      > which served at New Orleans was "mustered for
                      > selection" and some of its men went into the new 1st
                      > INF. A new 7th was created by mustering for selection
                      > men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF. While the men
                      > who originally served in the 7th regiment were now
                      > assigned new units, the Regiment numbered "7"
                      > continued to exist.
                      >
                      >

                      I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment have an existence of its
                      own or not? The fact that all the men in a particular regiment get moved to
                      others does not mean that a regiment looses its history as long as it
                      continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment has been abolished then
                      for any other to claim its honours is rather like wearing someone else's
                      medals. That said of course a regiment can be re-raised.

                      Cheers

                      Tim


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ray Hobbs
                      Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are complicated, just check this out: Fielding s Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 7 11:17 AM
                        Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are
                        complicated, just check this out:

                        Fielding's Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the 41st
                        Regiment in 1751. On the 1760s it became a proper Line Regiment.
                        During the War of 1812 two battalions were raised, but were shortlived
                        as separate organizations, because they were combined at the end of
                        1813 - with a surfeit of officers.
                        In 1831 the regiment was named 'The Welch', but retained its number
                        '41'. In 1881 there were three battalions of the Welsh Regiment, the
                        second of which had once been the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment of Foot
                        raised in 1756, then renamed the 69th South Lincolnshire Regiment in
                        1758. the third Battalion, Welsh Regiment of 1881 had once been the
                        Royal Glamorgan Militia, raised in 1760, which had been renamed in 1812
                        as the Royal Glamorgan Light Infantry.
                        After 1887 there were four Volunteer Battalions of the Regiment, which
                        had their origins in the 1st Pembroke Volunteer Rifles, and the 1st,
                        2nd, 3rd Glamorgan Volunteer Rifles.
                        By 1908 all of the Battalions of the Regiment had bee renamed and
                        renumbered into the 1st and 2nd Battlions, the 3rd (Special Reserve)
                        Battalion, the 4th, 5th and 6th Battalions (Territorial Forces) and the
                        7th (Cyclist) Battalion (Territorial Forces). Of these the 4th
                        Battalion, for example, had gone through several lives as variations of
                        the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Pemrokeshire Volunteers, the 1st and 5th
                        Carmarthenshire Volunteers, the 1st Haverfordswest Volunteers - all
                        consolidated in 1880 into the 1st Pemrokeshire Vols.
                        the 2nd Battalion of the Territorials went on to become a Battalion of
                        the King's Shropshire Light Infantry in 1915 - similar to the 2/5th
                        which went into the Cheshire Regiment in 1915.
                        During WW1 the Regiment had 37 (!) battalions of varied strengths and
                        duties, and there were other Regiments attached to the Welsh Regimental
                        HQ, such as the Fishguard, Denbigh Volunteers, and the Glamorgan
                        Yeomanry, which for a few months was called 'The Imperial Glamorgan
                        Yeomanry'.
                        Between the wars and after WW2 the regiment was reduced to two
                        battalions, and in 1969 was combined with the South Wales Borderers,
                        once known as the 24th Regiment of Foot then the 2nd Warwickshire
                        Regiment before it became the SWB.
                        In 1969 a new Regiment, the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th/41st) was
                        established, and still exists.
                        This is by no means the least complicated of the British Regimental
                        Histories. I have left out much in the above summary.
                        Of course, any battle honours of the preceding regiments were now
                        transferred to the later ones. This why the Battle Honour "Waterloo"
                        is credited to the RRW, even though neither the 24th, nor the 41st were
                        at the battle. The 2nd 69th were, however present (The 1st 69th were
                        in the Far East). The 2nd 24th had had fine service in the Peninsula,
                        notably at Talavera, but had been sent home and were disbanded before
                        Waterloo.

                        So, the question "Who's your daddy?" is an extremely complicated one
                        when it comes to British Regimental Histories.

                        Ray Hobbs, Sgt
                        CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                        HQ Hamilton, Ontario

                        The Canadas 1799-1815

                        http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/index2.htm
                      • Steve Abolt
                        Tim, This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in 1923. It is this point that the article in the Infantry Journal discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 7 11:57 AM
                          Tim,
                          This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in
                          1923. It is this point that the article in the
                          "Infantry Journal" discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                          it all, when tracing the official lineage as provided
                          by today's DOD, they list it as 1812 and its lineage
                          as a company of the 8th INF. Basically they are
                          trying to "have their cake and eat it too."

                          At present the lineage is so disjointed the Army has
                          just decided to leave well enough alone. TX National
                          Guard Units run into the same problem.

                          Throughout its 19th century history the 7th INF
                          celebrated its role in the Battle of New Orleans. Even
                          today, on every January 8th there is a formal change
                          of command ceremony.

                          We were honored to have them at Chalmette as a
                          co-Color guard on two occasions. For the last three
                          years, due to the current world situation they have
                          not been able to attend.

                          I recently acquired two interesting bits of the
                          regiment's past, both mentioning their annual trooping
                          of the Colors and one small note about "The same
                          ceremony in use for the last 100 years." This note is
                          dated 1915. However, I have yet to find out exactly
                          what that ceremony is or was, as no one in the active
                          duty Battalions has any knowledge of it.

                          I am also currently trying to obtain copies of the
                          original daybooks for the 1820-40 time period to see
                          what, if anything is listed for the 8th of January.

                          All the best,
                          S.

                          --- BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                          >
                          > I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment
                          > have an existence of its
                          > own or not? The fact that all the men in a
                          > particular regiment get moved to
                          > others does not mean that a regiment looses its
                          > history as long as it
                          > continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment
                          > has been abolished then
                          > for any other to claim its honours is rather like
                          > wearing someone else's
                          > medals. That said of course a regiment can be
                          > re-raised.
                          >
                          > Cheers
                          >
                          > Tim
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >


                          =====
                          Cottonbalers, By God!

                          visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                          __________________________________________________
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                        • Peter Catley
                          Now, this I understood :-) Want to get confused then trace the Regiments that now make up the Royal Anglian Regiment!! Cheers P** ... From: Ray Hobbs
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 7 12:06 PM
                            Now, this I understood :-)

                            Want to get confused then trace the Regiments that now make up the Royal
                            Anglian Regiment!!

                            Cheers

                            P**
                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Ray Hobbs [mailto:ray.hobbs@...]
                            Sent: 07 April 2003 19:17
                            To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?




                            Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are
                            complicated, just check this out:

                            Fielding's Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the 41st
                            Regiment in 1751. On the 1760s it became a proper Line Regiment.
                            During the War of 1812 two battalions were raised, but were shortlived
                            as separate organizations, because they were combined at the end of
                            1813 - with a surfeit of officers. ................

                            So, the question "Who's your daddy?" is an extremely complicated one
                            when it comes to British Regimental Histories.

                            Ray Hobbs, Sgt
                            CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                            HQ Hamilton, Ontario

                            The Canadas 1799-1815

                            http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/index2.htm


                            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



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                            square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                            square miles...

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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ebclemson
                            Steve and Tim, No disagreement here. However, the Official U.S. Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S. Government book stores today, will State
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 7 8:56 PM
                              Steve and Tim,

                              No disagreement here. However, the "Official" U.S. Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S. Government book stores today, will State that the Third Infantry "official" lineage is from the 1st Infantry, and so on and so on. Each Battalion of the 3rd for example, traces exactly back to each company of the 1815 regiment. Company A, B, C, etc. The pre-1815 army did not have Letter company designations, each company was known for their Captain.

                              I agree that the Army Lineage takes credit from the Pre-War regiment and the pre-war regiments that were consolidated into the Post war regiment. The regiments were assigned to the senoirity of the Col. commanding. Thus the Senoir Col. received the Post War 1st Infy., the next senoir the 2nd, and so on.

                              The Third Infantry today traces their history to the formation of the "First American regiment".

                              I personally agree that the regiment is the regiment is the regiment. "Have your Cake and eat it to." Yep, must be an Army Motto!

                              Steve, received our new First Infantry Regimental Color and it is terrific! Can't wait to honor it in the company of the 7th's Regimental & Standard!

                              Will we see you in April?

                              Your Pard, Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.




                              Abolt <sacbg7@y...> wrote:
                              > Tim,
                              > This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in
                              > 1923. It is this point that the article in the
                              > "Infantry Journal" discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                              > it all, when tracing the official lineage as provided
                              > by today's DOD, they list it as 1812 and its lineage
                              > as a company of the 8th INF. Basically they are
                              > trying to "have their cake and eat it too."
                              >
                              > At present the lineage is so disjointed the Army has
                              > just decided to leave well enough alone. TX National
                              > Guard Units run into the same problem.
                              >
                              > Throughout its 19th century history the 7th INF
                              > celebrated its role in the Battle of New Orleans. Even
                              > today, on every January 8th there is a formal change
                              > of command ceremony.
                              >
                              > We were honored to have them at Chalmette as a
                              > co-Color guard on two occasions. For the last three
                              > years, due to the current world situation they have
                              > not been able to attend.
                              >
                              > I recently acquired two interesting bits of the
                              > regiment's past, both mentioning their annual trooping
                              > of the Colors and one small note about "The same
                              > ceremony in use for the last 100 years." This note is
                              > dated 1915. However, I have yet to find out exactly
                              > what that ceremony is or was, as no one in the active
                              > duty Battalions has any knowledge of it.
                              >
                              > I am also currently trying to obtain copies of the
                              > original daybooks for the 1820-40 time period to see
                              > what, if anything is listed for the 8th of January.
                              >
                              > All the best,
                              > S.
                              >
                              > --- BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment
                              > > have an existence of its
                              > > own or not? The fact that all the men in a
                              > > particular regiment get moved to
                              > > others does not mean that a regiment looses its
                              > > history as long as it
                              > > continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment
                              > > has been abolished then
                              > > for any other to claim its honours is rather like
                              > > wearing someone else's
                              > > medals. That said of course a regiment can be
                              > > re-raised.
                              > >
                              > > Cheers
                              > >
                              > > Tim
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              > > removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > =====
                              > Cottonbalers, By God!
                              >
                              > visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net
                              >
                              > __________________________________________________
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                            • Steve Abolt
                              David, Another excellent book on Army Lineage and Battle Honors is published by the Department of Defense. It attempts to address many of the issues dicussed
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 8 11:30 AM
                                David,

                                Another excellent book on Army Lineage and Battle
                                Honors is published by the Department of Defense. It
                                attempts to address many of the issues dicussed in the
                                earlier posts.

                                My heartiest congratulations on the new stand of
                                Colors!!!!

                                What an honor to have them unfurled once again.

                                Still working on April. Keep your fingers crossed.

                                All the best,
                                S.
                                --- ebclemson <ebclemson@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Steve and Tim,
                                >
                                > No disagreement here. However, the "Official" U.S.
                                > Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S.
                                > Government book stores today, > Steve, received
                                our new First Infantry Regimental
                                > Color and it is terrific! Can't wait to honor it in
                                > the company of the 7th's Regimental & Standard!
                                >
                                > Will we see you in April?
                                >
                                > Your Pard, Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri
                                > Rangers.
                                >


                                =====
                                Cottonbalers, By God!

                                visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                                __________________________________________________
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                              • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                With all this muddled and befuddled tracing of units lineages, I feel safe to say: We is glad to be in the 93rd! (And, oh yes, I am quite aware of 1881,
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 9 12:35 PM
                                  With all this muddled and befuddled tracing of units' lineages, I feel safe
                                  to say:
                                  We is glad to be in the 93rd!
                                  (And, oh yes, I am quite aware of 1881, Singapore, and the early 1960s.)

                                  B
                                  93rd SHRoFLHU
                                  THE Thin Red Line
                                  www.93rdhighlanders.com



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