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How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?

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  • Larry Lozon
    How The Army Divisions Numbered? By Phillip Carter Posted Friday, March 28, 2003, at 3:18 PM PT Anyone watching Iraq war coverage has seen a stream of numbers
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 6, 2003
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      How The Army Divisions Numbered?
      By Phillip Carter
      Posted Friday, March 28, 2003, at 3:18 PM PT

      Anyone watching Iraq war coverage has seen a stream of numbers go by,
      identifying particular Army divisions-the 101st Airborne, the 3rd Infantry,
      etc. What do these numbers mean? And if there's a 101st Airborne, what
      happened to the 100th and 102nd?

      The first thing to know is that the Army's divisions were numbered in the
      order they were created. So the 1st Division was actually the first
      division; then came the 2nd, 3rd, etc.
      There are, of course, gaps in the sequence. Today's Army has eight infantry
      divisions: the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, along with the 10th, 25th, 82nd, and
      101st.

      What happened to the rest of them? Well, the military has cyclically
      expanded in wartime, creating lots of new units-during World War II, for
      example, the Army's had infantry divisions running all the way up to the
      106th. But during peacetime, most of the war units are deactivated, which
      accounts for the holes.

      How does the Army pick which divisions to keep? Each unit has its own
      customs and history, and the Army basically preserves the ones with the most
      glorious lineage. Take the 101st Airborne Division, which has been part of
      the Army since 1942. During World War II, the "Screaming Eagles" parachuted
      into Normandy and fought their way across Europe, making a heroic stand at
      Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge. The Army has kept the division on
      active duty ever since. During the same war, the Army's 100th and 102nd
      Divisions served no less bravely but somewhat less famously. Both were
      shuttered for good after the war.

      TV coverage of Gulf War II also refers to various Army regiments (notably
      the 7th Cavalry Regiment, which has already tangled with Iraqi forces); but
      forget about trying to understand that numbering system. For a while, the
      Army issued regimental numbers in sequence. But the system gave out during
      the Civil War, when states raised and numbered their own regiments, and
      became further muddled during World War I, when newly formed federal
      regiments tried to reclaim the numbers of their Civil War forebears.

      To make things more confusing, the Army has a habit of combining many
      regiments in the same unit. The 1st Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division, for
      example, includes parts of the 7th Infantry and 69th Armor regiments. It
      also includes a number of support units, whose numbers often bear little or
      no relation to the number of the combat unit they support.

      Bonus Explainer: Division, regiment, battalion-what's the difference?

      Divisions have 10,000-to-15,000 soldiers divided in three-to-five combat
      regiments and a number of support units.

      Regiments have 3,000-to-5,000 soldiers and include several combat and
      support battalions.

      Each Battalion has three-to-five line companies of 100-to-150 soldiers
      apiece. Companies break down into three-to-five platoons of 20-to-40 people,
      which in turn break down into squads of eight-to-12.

      From: http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

      .............
      It is interesting to note that the 7th US Infantry Regiment is still in the
      middle of the action!

      Visit: http://www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net/
      for the 7th US Infantry 1810-1850

      Visit: http://www.cottonbalers.com
      for more info on one of the oldest Regiments in the United States Army.
    • dancingbobd@webtv.net
      Hi Larry and all, In addition to the Division in the regular active Army there are several more in the reserves. When I visit the Frontier Army Museum at Ft.
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 6, 2003
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        Hi Larry and all,

        In addition to the Division in the regular active Army there are several
        more in the reserves. When I visit the Frontier Army Museum at Ft.
        Leavenworth, KS the soldiers providing security at the main gate
        (inspecting vehicles & checking ID's) are from the 35th Inf. Div. which
        is located mostly in Missouri and Kansas,

        Regards,

        Bob Dorian
        Formerly, Capt. US Army Reserve
      • Pro Glo Floors
        All, Little more about your numbering, the 7th Cavalry, part of the 3rd Infantry Division, outside Baghdad is an Infantry Battalion, not Cavalry. Again keeping
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 6, 2003
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          All,

          Little more about your numbering, the 7th Cavalry, part of the 3rd
          Infantry Division, outside Baghdad is an Infantry Battalion, not Cavalry.
          Again keeping a famous organization in the Army structure.


          Don Kehoe
          1SG, US Army (Retired)
        • CB ROTC
          My brother is in the 1st cavalry division, 7th regiment. the majority of the famous custer regiment is still in texas at Ft. Hood. The regiment is split into
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 6, 2003
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            My brother is in the 1st cavalry division, 7th regiment. the majority of
            the famous custer regiment is still in texas at Ft. Hood. The regiment is
            split into 3 main forces (i think they are battalions off hand) with one
            being in the USA at all times, one being in S. Korea and one being deployed
            in Europe. I think that the infantry unit from Europe is in Iraq right now
            (the unit in texas is definately armored cavalry and so is the one in S.
            Korea)

            Also, if looking at US military forces, not only must you include reserves,
            but also State National Guard Divisions. They are activated at time of war
            as well.




            >From: "Pro Glo Floors" <floors1@...>
            >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?
            >Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 18:21:08 -0500
            >
            >All,
            >
            > Little more about your numbering, the 7th Cavalry, part of the 3rd
            >Infantry Division, outside Baghdad is an Infantry Battalion, not Cavalry.
            >Again keeping a famous organization in the Army structure.
            >
            >
            >Don Kehoe
            >1SG, US Army (Retired)
            >
            >
            >
            >


            _________________________________________________________________
            The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
            http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
          • Annette and Lloyd
            Larry , The explanation of the breakdown of U.S. Army units was very interesting .I had wondered for some time about the large differences in numbering of
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 6, 2003
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              Larry ,
              The explanation of the breakdown of U.S. Army units was very interesting .I
              had wondered for some time about the large differences in numbering of units
              ,
              Thank You .
              Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ,I have herd the
              news refer to the 1st Marine Division ,then their was mention of such Marine
              units 1/7 ,2/9 and 3/26 I believe in referece to Battalion and Regiment ,the
              system for Marine Corps must differ totally from Army also they don't seem
              to ware patches ,like the Army that differentiate them from one unit to
              another , how do they tell themselves apart ? I dont mean rank wise but
              unit to unit ?
              agower@...
            • ebclemson
              ... To make matters more confusing, after the war of 1812, the Army s regiments were consolidated. The modern 7th Infantry are not related to the 7th during
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 6, 2003
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                --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Larry and list,

                To make matters more confusing, after the war of 1812, the Army's regiments were consolidated. The modern 7th Infantry are not related to the 7th during the War of 1812. For Example, the 1st Infy. of 1812 were consolidated into the 3rd Infy. after the War, and thus the tile of "The Old Guard."

                Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.


                Lozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
                > How The Army Divisions Numbered?
                > By Phillip Carter
                > Posted Friday, March 28, 2003, at 3:18 PM PT
                >
                > Anyone watching Iraq war coverage has seen a stream of numbers go by,
                > identifying particular Army divisions-the 101st Airborne, the 3rd Infantry,
                > etc. What do these numbers mean? And if there's a 101st Airborne, what
                > happened to the 100th and 102nd?
                >
                > The first thing to know is that the Army's divisions were numbered in the
                > order they were created. So the 1st Division was actually the first
                > division; then came the 2nd, 3rd, etc.
                > There are, of course, gaps in the sequence. Today's Army has eight infantry
                > divisions: the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, along with the 10th, 25th, 82nd, and
                > 101st.
                >
                > What happened to the rest of them? Well, the military has cyclically
                > expanded in wartime, creating lots of new units-during World War II, for
                > example, the Army's had infantry divisions running all the way up to the
                > 106th. But during peacetime, most of the war units are deactivated, which
                > accounts for the holes.
                >
                > How does the Army pick which divisions to keep? Each unit has its own
                > customs and history, and the Army basically preserves the ones with the most
                > glorious lineage. Take the 101st Airborne Division, which has been part of
                > the Army since 1942. During World War II, the "Screaming Eagles" parachuted
                > into Normandy and fought their way across Europe, making a heroic stand at
                > Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge. The Army has kept the division on
                > active duty ever since. During the same war, the Army's 100th and 102nd
                > Divisions served no less bravely but somewhat less famously. Both were
                > shuttered for good after the war.
                >
                > TV coverage of Gulf War II also refers to various Army regiments (notably
                > the 7th Cavalry Regiment, which has already tangled with Iraqi forces); but
                > forget about trying to understand that numbering system. For a while, the
                > Army issued regimental numbers in sequence. But the system gave out during
                > the Civil War, when states raised and numbered their own regiments, and
                > became further muddled during World War I, when newly formed federal
                > regiments tried to reclaim the numbers of their Civil War forebears.
                >
                > To make things more confusing, the Army has a habit of combining many
                > regiments in the same unit. The 1st Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division, for
                > example, includes parts of the 7th Infantry and 69th Armor regiments. It
                > also includes a number of support units, whose numbers often bear little or
                > no relation to the number of the combat unit they support.
                >
                > Bonus Explainer: Division, regiment, battalion-what's the difference?
                >
                > Divisions have 10,000-to-15,000 soldiers divided in three-to-five combat
                > regiments and a number of support units.
                >
                > Regiments have 3,000-to-5,000 soldiers and include several combat and
                > support battalions.
                >
                > Each Battalion has three-to-five line companies of 100-to-150 soldiers
                > apiece. Companies break down into three-to-five platoons of 20-to-40 people,
                > which in turn break down into squads of eight-to-12.
                >
                > From: http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/
                >
                > .............
                > It is interesting to note that the 7th US Infantry Regiment is still in the
                > middle of the action!
                >
                > Visit: http://www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net/
                > for the 7th US Infantry 1810-1850
                >
                > Visit: http://www.cottonbalers.com
                > for more info on one of the oldest Regiments in the United States Army.
              • Larry Lozon
                From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                  From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


                  Larry ,

                  ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

                  ____________________

                  If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
                  a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
                  was found at:

                  http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

                  I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
                  New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
                  fighting today.

                  As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
                  possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
                  I do not have their contact.

                  Larry Lozon
                • Larry Lozon
                  From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                    From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


                    Larry ,

                    ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

                    ____________________

                    If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
                    a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
                    was found at:

                    http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

                    I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
                    New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
                    fighting today.

                    As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
                    possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
                    I do not have their contact.

                    Larry Lozon
                  • Larry Lozon
                    From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                      From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


                      Larry ,

                      ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

                      ____________________

                      If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
                      a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
                      was found at:

                      http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

                      I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
                      New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
                      fighting today.

                      As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
                      possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
                      I do not have their contact.

                      Larry Lozon
                    • Larry Lozon
                      From: Annette and Lloyd Larry , ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines ____________________ If you check my
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                        From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>


                        Larry ,

                        ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines

                        ____________________

                        If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
                        a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
                        was found at:

                        http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/

                        I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
                        New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
                        fighting today.

                        As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
                        possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
                        I do not have their contact.

                        Larry Lozon
                      • Steve Abolt
                        Dear List, Tracing Army lineage is a tricky and confusing business. So to answer my old pard Dave, he is both right and wrong. The tracing of US Army lineage
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                          Dear List,

                          Tracing Army lineage is a tricky and confusing
                          business. So to answer my old pard Dave, he is both
                          right and wrong.

                          The tracing of US Army lineage became a bone of
                          contention in the latter part of the 19th century,
                          more specifically in 1875.

                          Much has been written on this subject and I will
                          endeavor to be brief, thus avoiding a long post.

                          After the War of 1812 the American Infantry was
                          consolidated from 44 regiments to 8. The 7th INF
                          which served at New Orleans was "mustered for
                          selection" and some of its men went into the new 1st
                          INF. A new 7th was created by mustering for selection
                          men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF. While the men
                          who originally served in the 7th regiment were now
                          assigned new units, the Regiment numbered "7"
                          continued to exist.

                          In 1862 Army units were instructed to research their
                          histories. At this time the War department officially
                          credited the 7th INF for New Orleans and Ft. Harrison
                          from the War of 1812. These were instructed to be
                          painted on the Colors.

                          As stated earlier by 1875 some in the Army began to
                          argue that earlier lineage did not matter due to the
                          reorganization of 1815.

                          On October 30, 1896 the War Department decided that
                          lineage would carry back to pre-1815 reorganization.

                          In 1912 more agitation to stop the lineage at
                          reorganization of 1815, occurred most specifiaclly in
                          regards to the 1st,(Lundy's Lane) 4th (Tippecanoe) and
                          7th (New Orleans.) US Infantries. A huge collection of
                          correspondance detailing 7th INF lineage, traditions
                          etc is located in the National Archives regarding this
                          1912 question.

                          Finally in 1920 the War Department stripped the 7th
                          INF of its New Orleans Battle Honor awarding it
                          instead to the 1st INF. I believe the same was done to
                          the 1st in regards to Lundy's Lane and the 4th for
                          Tippecanoe.

                          When the War Department asked Col. Poor, then
                          commanding the 1st INF his reaction to having the
                          action of New Orleans credited to the 1st INF he
                          wrote: "with regard to the attitude of the 1st
                          Infantry, reply is made that it yields to the decision
                          of the War Department but he opinion is practically
                          unanimous that the rules laid down in Circular 89 W.D.
                          1920, are unjust to most organizations and bring real
                          satisfaction to none. I know of no facts connecting
                          this regiment to the battle of New Orleans. The deeds
                          of the 7th Infantry there should be an inspiration to
                          the present day Army; but I feel sure that no officer
                          or man of the 1st Infantry would think for a moment of
                          claiming them as activities of this Regiment."

                          When command of the 1st was changed in 1992 the next
                          commander also re-echoed this sentiment.

                          Finally on May 5, 1923 the War Department reversd
                          itself again linking the first 7 regiments to their
                          history prior to the reorganization of 1815. This in
                          effect restored the New Orleans Streamer to the 7th
                          INF. The Lundy's Lane Streamer to the 1st INF and the
                          Tippecanoe Streamer to the 4th Infantry.

                          This is the way it has stood since. Thus if you look
                          at the 7th INF Colors today you will see streamers for
                          not only New Orleans, but Canada. The 7th never was
                          in Canada during the War of 1812. That streamer
                          honors the lineage of the 8th and 20th INF's who were
                          amalgamated in 1815. The 1st INF Colors carry Lundy's
                          Lane, where they served with distinction, plus New
                          Orleans, where the "1st" did not but the "7th" did.

                          To quote a lime from a movie "Confusing, isn't it
                          Dutchy?"

                          Thus today's active duty 7th INF still links itself to
                          New Orleans as does the 1st linking itself to Lundy's
                          Lane.

                          For an excellent study on this please see the
                          "Infantry Journal Vol XXIII No. 2. August 1923.

                          Warmest regards,
                          Steve Abolt

                          - ebclemson <ebclemson@...> wrote:
                          > --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Larry and
                          > list,
                          >
                          > To make matters more confusing, after the war of
                          > 1812, the Army's regiments were consolidated. The
                          > modern 7th Infantry are not related to the 7th
                          > during the War of 1812. For Example, the 1st Infy.
                          > of 1812 were consolidated into the 3rd Infy. after
                          > the War, and thus the tile of "The Old Guard."
                          >
                          > Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.


                          =====
                          Cottonbalers, By God!

                          visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                          __________________________________________________
                          Do you Yahoo!?
                          Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
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                        • PEGGY MATHEWS
                          Um, this is the fourth time I ve gotten this message. Is there something goofy with the mailer or should I just say, point taken ? ;-) Michael ... From:
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                            Um, this is the fourth time I've gotten this message. Is there something
                            goofy with the mailer or should I just say, "point taken"? ;-)

                            Michael


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
                            To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 8:00 AM
                            Subject: [WarOf1812] How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?


                            >
                            >
                            > From: "Annette and Lloyd" <agower@...>
                            >
                            >
                            > Larry ,
                            >
                            > ... Could you give the same explanation for the U.S. Marines
                            >
                            > ____________________
                            >
                            > If you check my original post, it was a 'News Item' from
                            > a web page and 'NOT' my personal research. The article
                            > was found at:
                            >
                            > http://slate.msn.com/id/2080825/
                            >
                            > I found it interesting that the 7th US Infantry of the Battle of
                            > New Orleans fame was mentioned as one of the Regiments
                            > fighting today.
                            >
                            > As for your request, here is a re-created US Marine Corps,
                            > possibly you could contact them for the info you seek.
                            > I do not have their contact.
                            >
                            > Larry Lozon
                          • Steve Abolt
                            Ooops, A couple of typos in my previous post. Corrections are as follows: The new 7th was created from the 8th, 24th, and 39th. The command change of the
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                              Ooops,
                              A couple of typos in my previous post. Corrections
                              are as follows: The new 7th was created from the 8th,
                              24th, and 39th. The command change of the 1st INF
                              referred to took place in 1922 not 1992.

                              All the best,
                              S.
                              --- Steve Abolt <sacbg7@...> wrote:
                              A new 7th was created by mustering for
                              > selection
                              > men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF

                              > When command of the 1st was changed in 1992 the next
                              > commander also re-echoed this sentiment.


                              =====
                              Cottonbalers, By God!

                              visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                              __________________________________________________
                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                              http://tax.yahoo.com
                            • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                              In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:19:36 AM Central Daylight Time, ... I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment have an existence of its own or not? The
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                                In a message dated 4/7/2003 10:19:36 AM Central Daylight Time,
                                sacbg7@... writes:


                                > After the War of 1812 the American Infantry was
                                > consolidated from 44 regiments to 8. The 7th INF
                                > which served at New Orleans was "mustered for
                                > selection" and some of its men went into the new 1st
                                > INF. A new 7th was created by mustering for selection
                                > men from the 8th, 20th and 39th INF. While the men
                                > who originally served in the 7th regiment were now
                                > assigned new units, the Regiment numbered "7"
                                > continued to exist.
                                >
                                >

                                I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment have an existence of its
                                own or not? The fact that all the men in a particular regiment get moved to
                                others does not mean that a regiment looses its history as long as it
                                continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment has been abolished then
                                for any other to claim its honours is rather like wearing someone else's
                                medals. That said of course a regiment can be re-raised.

                                Cheers

                                Tim


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Ray Hobbs
                                Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are complicated, just check this out: Fielding s Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                                  Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are
                                  complicated, just check this out:

                                  Fielding's Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the 41st
                                  Regiment in 1751. On the 1760s it became a proper Line Regiment.
                                  During the War of 1812 two battalions were raised, but were shortlived
                                  as separate organizations, because they were combined at the end of
                                  1813 - with a surfeit of officers.
                                  In 1831 the regiment was named 'The Welch', but retained its number
                                  '41'. In 1881 there were three battalions of the Welsh Regiment, the
                                  second of which had once been the 2nd Battalion 24th Regiment of Foot
                                  raised in 1756, then renamed the 69th South Lincolnshire Regiment in
                                  1758. the third Battalion, Welsh Regiment of 1881 had once been the
                                  Royal Glamorgan Militia, raised in 1760, which had been renamed in 1812
                                  as the Royal Glamorgan Light Infantry.
                                  After 1887 there were four Volunteer Battalions of the Regiment, which
                                  had their origins in the 1st Pembroke Volunteer Rifles, and the 1st,
                                  2nd, 3rd Glamorgan Volunteer Rifles.
                                  By 1908 all of the Battalions of the Regiment had bee renamed and
                                  renumbered into the 1st and 2nd Battlions, the 3rd (Special Reserve)
                                  Battalion, the 4th, 5th and 6th Battalions (Territorial Forces) and the
                                  7th (Cyclist) Battalion (Territorial Forces). Of these the 4th
                                  Battalion, for example, had gone through several lives as variations of
                                  the 1st, 2nd, 3rd Pemrokeshire Volunteers, the 1st and 5th
                                  Carmarthenshire Volunteers, the 1st Haverfordswest Volunteers - all
                                  consolidated in 1880 into the 1st Pemrokeshire Vols.
                                  the 2nd Battalion of the Territorials went on to become a Battalion of
                                  the King's Shropshire Light Infantry in 1915 - similar to the 2/5th
                                  which went into the Cheshire Regiment in 1915.
                                  During WW1 the Regiment had 37 (!) battalions of varied strengths and
                                  duties, and there were other Regiments attached to the Welsh Regimental
                                  HQ, such as the Fishguard, Denbigh Volunteers, and the Glamorgan
                                  Yeomanry, which for a few months was called 'The Imperial Glamorgan
                                  Yeomanry'.
                                  Between the wars and after WW2 the regiment was reduced to two
                                  battalions, and in 1969 was combined with the South Wales Borderers,
                                  once known as the 24th Regiment of Foot then the 2nd Warwickshire
                                  Regiment before it became the SWB.
                                  In 1969 a new Regiment, the Royal Regiment of Wales (24th/41st) was
                                  established, and still exists.
                                  This is by no means the least complicated of the British Regimental
                                  Histories. I have left out much in the above summary.
                                  Of course, any battle honours of the preceding regiments were now
                                  transferred to the later ones. This why the Battle Honour "Waterloo"
                                  is credited to the RRW, even though neither the 24th, nor the 41st were
                                  at the battle. The 2nd 69th were, however present (The 1st 69th were
                                  in the Far East). The 2nd 24th had had fine service in the Peninsula,
                                  notably at Talavera, but had been sent home and were disbanded before
                                  Waterloo.

                                  So, the question "Who's your daddy?" is an extremely complicated one
                                  when it comes to British Regimental Histories.

                                  Ray Hobbs, Sgt
                                  CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                                  HQ Hamilton, Ontario

                                  The Canadas 1799-1815

                                  http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/index2.htm
                                • Steve Abolt
                                  Tim, This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in 1923. It is this point that the article in the Infantry Journal discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Tim,
                                    This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in
                                    1923. It is this point that the article in the
                                    "Infantry Journal" discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                                    it all, when tracing the official lineage as provided
                                    by today's DOD, they list it as 1812 and its lineage
                                    as a company of the 8th INF. Basically they are
                                    trying to "have their cake and eat it too."

                                    At present the lineage is so disjointed the Army has
                                    just decided to leave well enough alone. TX National
                                    Guard Units run into the same problem.

                                    Throughout its 19th century history the 7th INF
                                    celebrated its role in the Battle of New Orleans. Even
                                    today, on every January 8th there is a formal change
                                    of command ceremony.

                                    We were honored to have them at Chalmette as a
                                    co-Color guard on two occasions. For the last three
                                    years, due to the current world situation they have
                                    not been able to attend.

                                    I recently acquired two interesting bits of the
                                    regiment's past, both mentioning their annual trooping
                                    of the Colors and one small note about "The same
                                    ceremony in use for the last 100 years." This note is
                                    dated 1915. However, I have yet to find out exactly
                                    what that ceremony is or was, as no one in the active
                                    duty Battalions has any knowledge of it.

                                    I am also currently trying to obtain copies of the
                                    original daybooks for the 1820-40 time period to see
                                    what, if anything is listed for the 8th of January.

                                    All the best,
                                    S.

                                    --- BritcomHMP@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment
                                    > have an existence of its
                                    > own or not? The fact that all the men in a
                                    > particular regiment get moved to
                                    > others does not mean that a regiment looses its
                                    > history as long as it
                                    > continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment
                                    > has been abolished then
                                    > for any other to claim its honours is rather like
                                    > wearing someone else's
                                    > medals. That said of course a regiment can be
                                    > re-raised.
                                    >
                                    > Cheers
                                    >
                                    > Tim
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    > removed]
                                    >
                                    >


                                    =====
                                    Cottonbalers, By God!

                                    visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                                    __________________________________________________
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                                  • Peter Catley
                                    Now, this I understood :-) Want to get confused then trace the Regiments that now make up the Royal Anglian Regiment!! Cheers P** ... From: Ray Hobbs
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                                      Now, this I understood :-)

                                      Want to get confused then trace the Regiments that now make up the Royal
                                      Anglian Regiment!!

                                      Cheers

                                      P**
                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Ray Hobbs [mailto:ray.hobbs@...]
                                      Sent: 07 April 2003 19:17
                                      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: How The US Army Divisions Are Numbered?




                                      Now, if you think US Regimental histories and designations are
                                      complicated, just check this out:

                                      Fielding's Regiment of Invalids raised in 1719, became the 41st
                                      Regiment in 1751. On the 1760s it became a proper Line Regiment.
                                      During the War of 1812 two battalions were raised, but were shortlived
                                      as separate organizations, because they were combined at the end of
                                      1813 - with a surfeit of officers. ................

                                      So, the question "Who's your daddy?" is an extremely complicated one
                                      when it comes to British Regimental Histories.

                                      Ray Hobbs, Sgt
                                      CO 41st Regiment of Foot
                                      HQ Hamilton, Ontario

                                      The Canadas 1799-1815

                                      http://fortyfirst.tripod.com/index2.htm


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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • ebclemson
                                      Steve and Tim, No disagreement here. However, the Official U.S. Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S. Government book stores today, will State
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 7, 2003
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                                        Steve and Tim,

                                        No disagreement here. However, the "Official" U.S. Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S. Government book stores today, will State that the Third Infantry "official" lineage is from the 1st Infantry, and so on and so on. Each Battalion of the 3rd for example, traces exactly back to each company of the 1815 regiment. Company A, B, C, etc. The pre-1815 army did not have Letter company designations, each company was known for their Captain.

                                        I agree that the Army Lineage takes credit from the Pre-War regiment and the pre-war regiments that were consolidated into the Post war regiment. The regiments were assigned to the senoirity of the Col. commanding. Thus the Senoir Col. received the Post War 1st Infy., the next senoir the 2nd, and so on.

                                        The Third Infantry today traces their history to the formation of the "First American regiment".

                                        I personally agree that the regiment is the regiment is the regiment. "Have your Cake and eat it to." Yep, must be an Army Motto!

                                        Steve, received our new First Infantry Regimental Color and it is terrific! Can't wait to honor it in the company of the 7th's Regimental & Standard!

                                        Will we see you in April?

                                        Your Pard, Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri Rangers.




                                        Abolt <sacbg7@y...> wrote:
                                        > Tim,
                                        > This is precisely what the Army came to conclude in
                                        > 1923. It is this point that the article in the
                                        > "Infantry Journal" discusses. Yet the bizarre thing of
                                        > it all, when tracing the official lineage as provided
                                        > by today's DOD, they list it as 1812 and its lineage
                                        > as a company of the 8th INF. Basically they are
                                        > trying to "have their cake and eat it too."
                                        >
                                        > At present the lineage is so disjointed the Army has
                                        > just decided to leave well enough alone. TX National
                                        > Guard Units run into the same problem.
                                        >
                                        > Throughout its 19th century history the 7th INF
                                        > celebrated its role in the Battle of New Orleans. Even
                                        > today, on every January 8th there is a formal change
                                        > of command ceremony.
                                        >
                                        > We were honored to have them at Chalmette as a
                                        > co-Color guard on two occasions. For the last three
                                        > years, due to the current world situation they have
                                        > not been able to attend.
                                        >
                                        > I recently acquired two interesting bits of the
                                        > regiment's past, both mentioning their annual trooping
                                        > of the Colors and one small note about "The same
                                        > ceremony in use for the last 100 years." This note is
                                        > dated 1915. However, I have yet to find out exactly
                                        > what that ceremony is or was, as no one in the active
                                        > duty Battalions has any knowledge of it.
                                        >
                                        > I am also currently trying to obtain copies of the
                                        > original daybooks for the 1820-40 time period to see
                                        > what, if anything is listed for the 8th of January.
                                        >
                                        > All the best,
                                        > S.
                                        >
                                        > --- BritcomHMP@a... wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I think this is a crucial point. Does the regiment
                                        > > have an existence of its
                                        > > own or not? The fact that all the men in a
                                        > > particular regiment get moved to
                                        > > others does not mean that a regiment looses its
                                        > > history as long as it
                                        > > continues to exist. On the other hand if a regiment
                                        > > has been abolished then
                                        > > for any other to claim its honours is rather like
                                        > > wearing someone else's
                                        > > medals. That said of course a regiment can be
                                        > > re-raised.
                                        > >
                                        > > Cheers
                                        > >
                                        > > Tim
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        > > removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > =====
                                        > Cottonbalers, By God!
                                        >
                                        > visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________________________
                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                        > Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                                        > http://tax.yahoo.com
                                      • Steve Abolt
                                        David, Another excellent book on Army Lineage and Battle Honors is published by the Department of Defense. It attempts to address many of the issues dicussed
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 8, 2003
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                                          David,

                                          Another excellent book on Army Lineage and Battle
                                          Honors is published by the Department of Defense. It
                                          attempts to address many of the issues dicussed in the
                                          earlier posts.

                                          My heartiest congratulations on the new stand of
                                          Colors!!!!

                                          What an honor to have them unfurled once again.

                                          Still working on April. Keep your fingers crossed.

                                          All the best,
                                          S.
                                          --- ebclemson <ebclemson@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Steve and Tim,
                                          >
                                          > No disagreement here. However, the "Official" U.S.
                                          > Army Lingeage book, that you can purchase at U.S.
                                          > Government book stores today, > Steve, received
                                          our new First Infantry Regimental
                                          > Color and it is terrific! Can't wait to honor it in
                                          > the company of the 7th's Regimental & Standard!
                                          >
                                          > Will we see you in April?
                                          >
                                          > Your Pard, Dave Bennett 1st Infy. & Missouri
                                          > Rangers.
                                          >


                                          =====
                                          Cottonbalers, By God!

                                          visit our website at www.cottonbalers.lynchburg.net

                                          __________________________________________________
                                          Do you Yahoo!?
                                          Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
                                          http://tax.yahoo.com
                                        • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                          With all this muddled and befuddled tracing of units lineages, I feel safe to say: We is glad to be in the 93rd! (And, oh yes, I am quite aware of 1881,
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 9, 2003
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                                            With all this muddled and befuddled tracing of units' lineages, I feel safe
                                            to say:
                                            We is glad to be in the 93rd!
                                            (And, oh yes, I am quite aware of 1881, Singapore, and the early 1960s.)

                                            B
                                            93rd SHRoFLHU
                                            THE Thin Red Line
                                            www.93rdhighlanders.com



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