Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Bread

Expand Messages
  • R Feltoe
    Dear List, On the topic of bread, I have a couple of bits of info in my files. On May 20, 1814, Corporal George Huffman (No 4 Coy) was found guilty of stealing
    Message 1 of 30 , Sep 8, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear List,
      On the topic of bread, I have a couple of bits of info in my files.

      On May 20, 1814, Corporal George Huffman (No 4 Coy) was found guilty of stealing quantities of bread and flour while working in the regimental bakery at Fort York. The quantity amounted to enough flour to make153 loaves of bread at lbs. each and 77 complete loaves. The testimony of Quartermaster Sergeant Benson stated that he delivered 20 barrels of flour containing 196 pounds each to be baked for the period 9-16 May. The expected output from this would be 12 lbs of bread from each 10lbs of flour.

      The inference is that Huffman had sold them (the loaves) on to his fellow soldiers, while the flour ended up in the nearby town of York. His sentence was to be reduced to the rank of Private and to have the value of the property deducted from his pay.

      This would definitely indicate fresh bread being available in garrison and not hardtack.

      In 1813 the following types of bread-related goods were listed as being purchased for the Army in Quebec City.

      Wheat at 12/- (12 shillings) per bushel
      Oats at 3/- per bushel
      Barley at 10/- per bushel
      Flour (Superfine) None available
      Flour (Fine) at $20 per barrel
      Flour (Common) at $15 per barrel
      Biscuit (Navy) None available
      Biscuit (Common) None available

      15 July 1813
      Garrison Rations at York
      1 pound of flour or biscuit per man per day




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • R Feltoe
      List, Oops That bread quote should read 153 loaves of bread at 4 lbs each Richard
      Message 2 of 30 , Sep 8, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        List, Oops
        That bread quote should read 153 loaves of bread at 4 lbs each
        Richard
      • PEGGY MATHEWS
        Evening, As I was considering the gear a soldier carried, it occurred to me that I didn t know what type of bread would most approximate the bread issued to
        Message 3 of 30 , Sep 11, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Evening,

          As I was considering the gear a soldier carried, it occurred to me that I didn't know what type of bread would most approximate the bread issued to soldiers for the field. So what would it be for each army? White, wheat, rye, some "heavy" natural mix, etc.? Would the recipe be any different for each army or does our common heritage make for a similar bread? So the short version of all the above is, what is the closest modern bread to simulate what one would find in an American or British breadbag?

          Thanks in advance,

          Michael Mathews

          "We must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it -- but we must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • wildwolf
          i would say hardtack, and sometimes sourdough bread ... From: PEGGY MATHEWS To: 1812elist Sent: September 11, 2002 8:28 PM Subject: [WarOf1812] Bread Evening,
          Message 4 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            i would say hardtack, and sometimes sourdough bread
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: PEGGY MATHEWS
            To: 1812elist
            Sent: September 11, 2002 8:28 PM
            Subject: [WarOf1812] Bread


            Evening,

            As I was considering the gear a soldier carried, it occurred to me that I didn't know what type of bread would most approximate the bread issued to soldiers for the field. So what would it be for each army? White, wheat, rye, some "heavy" natural mix, etc.? Would the recipe be any different for each army or does our common heritage make for a similar bread? So the short version of all the above is, what is the closest modern bread to simulate what one would find in an American or British breadbag?

            Thanks in advance,

            Michael Mathews

            "We must sail sometimes with the wind and sometimes against it -- but we must sail, and not drift, nor lie at anchor." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            ADVERTISEMENT




            The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • petemonahan@aol.com
            Michael Most of the time, soldiers in all armies would have had some version of Hardtack: double-baked biscuits of unbleached flour (health food stores)with
            Message 5 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Michael
              Most of the time, soldiers in all armies would have had some version of Hardtack: "double-baked" biscuits of unbleached flour (health food stores)with maybe a bit of rye flour and old straw and stuff for that authentic gritty taste! The U.S. National Parks service has a recipe on one of their CW websites but basically, take flour. wet merely enough so it forms a dry dough, roll out to 1" thick, pierce holes (a nail or fork tine) and bake on low heat (250) till its as ard as a rock. let air dry for days or weeks to leach out any residual moisture and you got gen-u-wine "tooth crackers"!

              "Soft tack" would hae been a rare treat and probably varied more by nationality - Rye, maybe, for the Slavs, wheat with maybe some barley flour further west. Don't know when "French bread" appeared, but we grunts prob. didn't get it! Though, "Stole it from an officer." has always worked for me as an excuse for out-of-characte luxuries. :) Enjoy!

              Peter Monahan, Corporal,
              Royal NFLD Regt
            • johnwhiteshirt
              Greetings, I live north of Toronto, Ontario and I have found hard tack in some of the local grocery stores. I believe it is called Hard Bread and comes in a
              Message 6 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Greetings,
                I live north of Toronto, Ontario and I have found hard tack in some
                of the local grocery stores. I believe it is called Hard Bread and
                comes in a red and white bag. It is imported from Newfoundland :).
                There are also stores in the area and a vendor at the Barrie Flea
                Market that specialize in Down East (Maritime Provinces) products for
                anyone in this area that may be interested. The stuff is harder than
                the hubs of hell and even soaking the buggers overnight is no
                garuntee they will be soft by morning. But they can be carried in
                your haversack and along with an apple and some jerky can be a half
                ways decent lunch when you are away from camp for the day. I would
                also hazzard a guess that there would be a similar pre-packaged hard
                tack available in the New England states.
                Best regards.
                John Whiteshirt
              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                In a message dated 9/12/2002 6:59:27 AM Central Daylight Time, ... Another possibility would be to say you were an officers servant. This was a plum job only
                Message 7 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  In a message dated 9/12/2002 6:59:27 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  petemonahan@... writes:


                  > , "Stole it from an officer." has always worked for me as an excuse for
                  > out-of-characte luxuries. :) Enjoy!
                  >

                  Another possibility would be to say you were an officers servant. This was a
                  plum job only offered to the best soldiers. You get out of most parades and
                  would have access to such luxuries (and drink)!

                  Cheers

                  Tim


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Larry Lozon
                  From: Michael Mathews ... I didn t know what type of bread would most approximate the bread issued to soldiers for the field. ...
                  Message 8 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    From: "Michael Mathews" <ciefranche21e@...>

                    " ... I didn't know what type of bread would most approximate
                    the bread issued to soldiers for the field.

                    ------------------------

                    May I suggest you acquire a copy of:

                    The King's Bread, 2nd Rising, Cooking at Niagara, 1726 - 1815.
                    by Dennis & Carol Farmer,
                    Youngstown Old Fort Niagara Association, In., 1989.

                    containing documented bread recipes ..............

                    'n great period booze recipes :^)

                    ~ as I work on my 'Peach Cordial'
                  • Larry Lozon
                    From: Peter Monahan Most of the time, soldiers in all armies would have had some version of Hardtack __________________ If we are talking
                    Message 9 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      From: Peter Monahan <petemonahan@...>

                      Most of the time, soldiers in all armies would have had some version of
                      Hardtack
                      __________________

                      If we are talking about Crown Forces in Upper or Lower Canada, there were
                      many
                      ovens in the towns and forts (Forts Amherstburg, George, Erie, etc.) in the
                      area.

                      I believe that most soldiers in this area, who were only a days march from a
                      town or
                      fort, would not have 'hardtack' but rather what we would call today 'county
                      bread'
                      or 'rye bread'. Many battles in Southwestern Ontario were at mills, Backus,
                      Malcoms,
                      McGregor's , etc.
                    • Ross Flowers
                      Many battles in Southwestern Ontario were at mills, Backus, Malcoms,McGregor s , etc. Maybe that s what they were fighting over!?!?!?! Ross
                      Message 10 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        "Many battles in Southwestern Ontario were at mills, Backus,>
                        Malcoms,McGregor's , etc."

                        Maybe that's what they were fighting over!?!?!?!

                        Ross
                      • PEGGY MATHEWS
                        Thanks, I ll look for it. The French army had mobile ovens that followed the army. Did it happen in North America, or does the population density and lack of
                        Message 11 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thanks, I'll look for it. The French army had mobile ovens that followed the army. Did it happen in North America, or does the population density and lack of roads make it unnecessary?

                          Funny you should mention a peach cordial. At our outing last weekend (F&I) a fellow soldat shared a 1950 bottle with the company. He and I lost our fathers this year (mine last month) so we drank a toast and reminisced. The first fear was that it might not be good after all this time, or that it may have turned to syrup. Neither was the case and it was enjoyed (a taste) by all. Five or six bottles of wine later and we all slept well. I apologize for being philosophical, but if there's someone out there you love, tell them, you never know when you'll no longer have the opportunity.

                          Michael

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Larry Lozon
                          Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 12:22 PM
                          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [WarOf1812] Bread

                          From: "Michael Mathews" <ciefranche21e@...>

                          " ... I didn't know what type of bread would most approximate
                          the bread issued to soldiers for the field.

                          ------------------------

                          May I suggest you acquire a copy of:

                          The King's Bread, 2nd Rising, Cooking at Niagara, 1726 - 1815.
                          by Dennis & Carol Farmer,
                          Youngstown Old Fort Niagara Association, In., 1989.

                          containing documented bread recipes ..............

                          'n great period booze recipes :^)

                          ~ as I work on my 'Peach Cordial'


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • dancingbobd@webtv.net
                          Thanks Richard, that is wonderful information. Bob Dorian US Engineer
                          Message 12 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks Richard, that is wonderful information.

                            Bob Dorian
                            US Engineer
                          • PEGGY MATHEWS
                            Interesting stuff as always, thanks. But to these 4lb. loaves... That s a hunk of bread! Based on modern loaves where even a heavy bread usually weighs
                            Message 13 of 30 , Sep 12, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Interesting stuff as always, thanks. But to these 4lb. loaves... That's a hunk of bread! Based on modern loaves where even a "heavy" bread usually weighs less than two pounds, how big or how dense were these things? Now I'm getting real curious. I'll dig for the reference, but IIRC the French in a memoir were described as having their 3 pound ration in 12 "biscuits." While crossing the Alps one poor fellow helping drag a cannon lost his entire packet over a cliff. He expressed more remorse over that than when he described a fatal accident to another crew. ;-)

                              Anything on the bread ration in the American Army?

                              Oh, the happy ending to the story above is that each of his escoude (squad) members gave him one of their biscuits.

                              Michael

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: R Feltoe
                              Sent: Thursday, September 12, 2002 5:12 PM
                              To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [WarOf1812] Bread

                              Dear List,
                              On the topic of bread, I have a couple of bits of info in my files.

                              On May 20, 1814, Corporal George Huffman (No 4 Coy) was found guilty of stealing quantities of bread and flour while working in the regimental bakery at Fort York. The quantity amounted to enough flour to make 153 loaves of bread at 4 lbs. each and 77 complete loaves. The testimony of Quartermaster Sergeant Benson stated that he delivered 20 barrels of flour containing 196 pounds each to be baked for the period 9-16 May. The expected output from this would be 12 lbs of bread from each 10lbs of flour.

                              (snip)


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • abateman
                              ... From: johnwhiteshirt ... If you want to buy authentic military hard tack, try Bent s Cookie Factory:
                              Message 14 of 30 , Sep 15, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "johnwhiteshirt" <pvt_mulvaney@...>


                                > Greetings,
                                > I live north of Toronto, Ontario and I have found hard tack in some
                                > of the local grocery stores. I believe it is called Hard Bread and
                                > comes in a red and white bag. It is imported from Newfoundland :).

                                If you want to buy authentic military hard tack, try Bent's Cookie Factory:

                                http://www.bentscookiefactory.com/hardtack.htm

                                They supplied hardtack to the Union Army during the Civil War. Since Josiah
                                Bent first went into business making "crackers" in 1801, however, it is
                                quite likely that his product was issued to US forces in our period,
                                particularly to the navy. Bent's crackers are mass produced and are much
                                more palatable than the rock-hard homemade abominations that have turned so
                                many people off this food. Surviving examples of hardtack crackers are
                                creamy white on the outside with just a hint of brown on the high points,
                                and inside they have noticeable layering and bubbling. In fact they look
                                rather like a large saltine cracker. It is difficult to reproduce this at
                                home - you need industrial baking methods to do it, and Bent's does it well.
                                Civil War "hardcores" swear by them.

                                Andrew Bateman, 41st Foot
                              • JB Whittaker
                                Hard Tack can be purchased in Canada. It is packaged under the name Purity Hard Bread. It comes in rectangles and is layered with bubbles in it. It is fairly
                                Message 15 of 30 , Sep 16, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hard Tack can be purchased in Canada. It is packaged under the name
                                  Purity Hard Bread. It comes in rectangles and is layered with bubbles
                                  in it. It is fairly simple to break up by hand. Like the Bent product
                                  it is creamy white with brown on the top.
                                  Regards,
                                  J.Bruce Whittaker
                                • Larry Lozon
                                  Research reveals that Ft Malden National Historic Site preserves the remnants of the second British fort built in Amherstburg, Ontario (near Windsor Ontario).
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Sep 18, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Research reveals that Ft Malden National Historic Site preserves the
                                    remnants of the second
                                    British fort built in Amherstburg, Ontario (near Windsor Ontario). The
                                    first, Ft Amherstburg,
                                    was established near the mouth of the Detroit River in 1796. It was a center
                                    of British operations during the War of 1812 and was destroyed by the
                                    British when they were forced to retreat in Sept.
                                    1813.

                                    The current dimensions of the fort can be attributed to the American army,
                                    which occupied the
                                    ruins of Ft Amherstburg from October 1813 until July 1815. The Americans
                                    began rebuilding
                                    the fort immediately.

                                    There was a bakehouse build at Ft Amherstburg in the 1790's for use of the
                                    garrison.
                                    Fresh bread would have been available. It has always been agreed that they
                                    were issued
                                    fresh bread, as well, a local baker had the contract to supply bread to the
                                    army. It is
                                    documented that they also made tea cake at Ft Amherstburg .

                                    So, I doubt with all the fresh bread available that the likes of the 8th,
                                    41st, 10th Royal Veterans,
                                    Royal Artillery, etc. Regts. would be issued 'hard tack'. Maybe by the Navy
                                    on the high seas,
                                    but not to the troops located near forts in the Detroit area or those near
                                    towns and forts in the Niagara area. Fort Niagara boasts a 'kitchen' within
                                    it's walls as well, where bread was baked daily
                                    for the soldiers garrisoned there. Both British and American troops
                                    garrisoned this fort between
                                    1776 and 1815.

                                    All this talk about 'bread' has made me hungry ...
                                    ... gunna make a sandwich, 'n not with 'hardtack'!

                                    nudge, nudge, wink, wink ;^)
                                  • Ross Flowers
                                    Excellent information on this thread. However, unless I have missed the posting, while we may all agree that it was bread and not hardtack issued to the
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Sep 18, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Excellent information on this thread. However, unless I have missed
                                      the posting, while we may all agree that it was bread and not
                                      hardtack issued to the British solider, what kind of bread is the
                                      question.

                                      Ross

                                      --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
                                      > Research reveals that Ft Malden National Historic Site
                                      preserves the
                                      > remnants of the second
                                      > British fort built in Amherstburg, Ontario (near Windsor Ontario).
                                      The
                                      > first, Ft Amherstburg,
                                      > was established near the mouth of the Detroit River in 1796. It was
                                      a center
                                      > of British operations during the War of 1812 and was destroyed by
                                      the
                                      > British when they were forced to retreat in Sept.
                                      > 1813.
                                      >
                                      > The current dimensions of the fort can be attributed to the
                                      American army,
                                      > which occupied the
                                      > ruins of Ft Amherstburg from October 1813 until July 1815. The
                                      Americans
                                      > began rebuilding
                                      > the fort immediately.
                                      >
                                      > There was a bakehouse build at Ft Amherstburg in the 1790's for
                                      use of the
                                      > garrison.
                                      > Fresh bread would have been available. It has always been agreed
                                      that they
                                      > were issued
                                      > fresh bread, as well, a local baker had the contract to supply
                                      bread to the
                                      > army. It is
                                      > documented that they also made tea cake at Ft Amherstburg .
                                      >
                                      > So, I doubt with all the fresh bread available that the likes of
                                      the 8th,
                                      > 41st, 10th Royal Veterans,
                                      > Royal Artillery, etc. Regts. would be issued 'hard tack'. Maybe by
                                      the Navy
                                      > on the high seas,
                                      > but not to the troops located near forts in the Detroit area or
                                      those near
                                      > towns and forts in the Niagara area. Fort Niagara boasts
                                      a 'kitchen' within
                                      > it's walls as well, where bread was baked daily
                                      > for the soldiers garrisoned there. Both British and American troops
                                      > garrisoned this fort between
                                      > 1776 and 1815.
                                      >
                                      > All this talk about 'bread' has made me hungry ...
                                      > ... gunna make a sandwich, 'n not with 'hardtack'!
                                      >
                                      > nudge, nudge, wink, wink ;^)
                                    • PEGGY MATHEWS
                                      And while we have evidence that a four pound loaf was baked, was it handed out that way? What were the rough dimensions? Back to the question, if I m
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Sep 18, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        And while we have evidence that a four pound loaf was baked, was it handed out that way? What were the rough dimensions? Back to the question, if I'm interpreting for the public, what should I pull out of my bag?

                                        Michael

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Ross Flowers
                                        Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 2:51 PM
                                        To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Bread

                                        Excellent information on this thread. However, unless I have missed
                                        the posting, while we may all agree that it was bread and not
                                        hardtack issued to the British solider, what kind of bread is the
                                        question.

                                        Ross

                                        --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@n...> wrote:
                                        > Research reveals that Ft Malden National Historic Site
                                        preserves the
                                        > remnants of the second
                                        > British fort built in Amherstburg, Ontario (near Windsor Ontario).
                                        The
                                        > first, Ft Amherstburg,
                                        > was established near the mouth of the Detroit River in 1796. It was
                                        a center
                                        > of British operations during the War of 1812 and was destroyed by
                                        the
                                        > British when they were forced to retreat in Sept.
                                        > 1813.
                                        >
                                        > The current dimensions of the fort can be attributed to the
                                        American army,
                                        > which occupied the
                                        > ruins of Ft Amherstburg from October 1813 until July 1815. The
                                        Americans
                                        > began rebuilding
                                        > the fort immediately.
                                        >
                                        > There was a bakehouse build at Ft Amherstburg in the 1790's for
                                        use of the
                                        > garrison.
                                        > Fresh bread would have been available. It has always been agreed
                                        that they
                                        > were issued
                                        > fresh bread, as well, a local baker had the contract to supply
                                        bread to the
                                        > army. It is
                                        > documented that they also made tea cake at Ft Amherstburg .
                                        >
                                        > So, I doubt with all the fresh bread available that the likes of
                                        the 8th,
                                        > 41st, 10th Royal Veterans,
                                        > Royal Artillery, etc. Regts. would be issued 'hard tack'. Maybe by
                                        the Navy
                                        > on the high seas,
                                        > but not to the troops located near forts in the Detroit area or
                                        those near
                                        > towns and forts in the Niagara area. Fort Niagara boasts
                                        a 'kitchen' within
                                        > it's walls as well, where bread was baked daily
                                        > for the soldiers garrisoned there. Both British and American troops
                                        > garrisoned this fort between
                                        > 1776 and 1815.
                                        >
                                        > All this talk about 'bread' has made me hungry ...
                                        > ... gunna make a sandwich, 'n not with 'hardtack'!
                                        >
                                        > nudge, nudge, wink, wink ;^)



                                        The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...

                                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Larry Lozon
                                        From: Ross Flowers Excellent information ..... what kind of bread is the question. ........... Mea culpa Rum Major It should have
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Sep 18, 2002
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          From: "Ross Flowers" <rflowers@...>

                                          Excellent information ..... what kind of bread is the question.

                                          ...........

                                          Mea culpa 'Rum Major

                                          It should have been a whole wheat flour as milled
                                          at Backus and Malcolm's Mills.

                                          The Treasury Board ordered one man's rations to be
                                          1lb bread or flour.

                                          Therefore a 1lb loaf of bread made of whole wheat flour

                                          and 1 gill of rum or whiskey, as 'whisky' would not be
                                          wasted on the scum, unless it was Highland scum! :^)
                                        • Larry Lozon
                                          From: Ross Flowers ... but there is no such thing as Highland scum !!! ............ My Dear Rum Major, You should read the Duke
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Sep 18, 2002
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            From: "Ross Flowers" <drums1812@...>

                                            " ... but there is no such thing as "Highland scum"!!!

                                            ............

                                            My Dear 'Rum Major,

                                            You should read the Duke of Wellington's reports
                                            whether they were from Yorkshire or Glasgow, he states:

                                            "This army is composed of the Scum of the earth, I don't
                                            know what effect these men will have on the enemy, but
                                            by God they terrify me!"

                                            Now Brother R'Major, you wouldn't happen to be Scottish?!?!
                                          • Ross Flowers
                                            Excuse me, but there is no such thing as Highland scum !!! Ross ... From: Larry Lozon To: Sent:
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Sep 18, 2002
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Excuse me, but there is no such thing as "Highland scum"!!!

                                              Ross
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
                                              To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 2:43 PM
                                              Subject: [WarOf1812] Bread


                                              > From: "Ross Flowers" <rflowers@...>
                                              >
                                              > Excellent information ..... what kind of bread is the question.
                                              >
                                              > ...........
                                              >
                                              > Mea culpa 'Rum Major
                                              >
                                              > It should have been a whole wheat flour as milled
                                              > at Backus and Malcolm's Mills.
                                              >
                                              > The Treasury Board ordered one man's rations to be
                                              > 1lb bread or flour.
                                              >
                                              > Therefore a 1lb loaf of bread made of whole wheat flour
                                              >
                                              > and 1 gill of rum or whiskey, as 'whisky' would not be
                                              > wasted on the scum, unless it was Highland scum! :^)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                                              square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                                              square miles...
                                              >
                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                            • Larry Lozon
                                              From: Ross Flowers Yes but he wasn t talking about the Union Brigade. ............ Rum Major He told me it was all the Crown Forces,
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Sep 18, 2002
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                From: "Ross Flowers" <drums1812@...>



                                                Yes but he wasn't talking about the Union Brigade.

                                                ............

                                                Rum Major

                                                He told me it was all the Crown Forces,
                                                including the Corps of Drums!
                                              • Ross Flowers
                                                Yes but he wasn t talking about the Union Brigade. (D)rum Major ... From: Larry Lozon To: Sent: Wednesday,
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Sep 18, 2002
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Yes but he wasn't talking about the Union Brigade.

                                                  (D)rum Major


                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "Larry Lozon" <lalozon@...>
                                                  To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 4:43 PM
                                                  Subject: [WarOf1812] Bread


                                                  > From: "Ross Flowers" <drums1812@...>
                                                  >
                                                  > " ... but there is no such thing as "Highland scum"!!!
                                                  >
                                                  > ............
                                                  >
                                                  > My Dear 'Rum Major,
                                                  >
                                                  > You should read the Duke of Wellington's reports
                                                  > whether they were from Yorkshire or Glasgow, he states:
                                                  >
                                                  > "This army is composed of the Scum of the earth, I don't
                                                  > know what effect these men will have on the enemy, but
                                                  > by God they terrify me!"
                                                  >
                                                  > Now Brother R'Major, you wouldn't happen to be Scottish?!?!
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                                                  square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                                                  square miles...
                                                  >
                                                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                • Five Rivers
                                                  Now, just to confuse matters a little, one must wonder with what did they leaven their bread? Do we have record of yeast being used within the fort from any of
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Sep 19, 2002
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Now, just to confuse matters a little, one must wonder with what did
                                                    they leaven their bread? Do we have record of yeast being used within the
                                                    fort from any of the inventories? Was this a sourdough bread, which would
                                                    have required a starter to have been kept by the baker and therefore would
                                                    have made a substantial difference in the size, weight and texture of the
                                                    bread? Was this a barm bread made from the leftover ale yeast, which would
                                                    have again very much affected the size, weight and texture of the bread?
                                                    These leavenings all act quite differently and produce quite different
                                                    breads.

                                                    Small beer or ale very likely would have been brewed within the fort or
                                                    have been commissioned by the fort, as this was a common drink, not
                                                    considerably high in alcohol content, and therefore there may very well have
                                                    been access to barm. Further, if there was brewing going on in, or for, the
                                                    fort, the mash also may very well have been used in the bread, as this adds
                                                    to the nutrition and texture of the bread, thereby cutting back on the
                                                    expense of milled flour. It would be good economy to do so. And if mash was
                                                    used that will again very much alter the taste, texture and weight of the
                                                    bread.

                                                    And do we know for a fact they were using whole wheat flour? It was also
                                                    very common for rye flour to be used, as this was considered an inferior
                                                    form of flour (because of the lack of gluten which produces a light, high
                                                    loaf), less expensive, and therefore may have been used for the troops.

                                                    If we're looking to be pulling out an accurate loaf from our packs, good
                                                    gentlemen, then the leavening will make a considerable difference even to
                                                    the eye, let alone the palate. And if I were able to look at a list of goods
                                                    ordered by the fort for the supply of the kitchen, I could probably come up
                                                    with a reasonable extrapolation and facsimile of what the boys were munching
                                                    on.

                                                    Just to play devil's advocate here. ;-)

                                                    Regards
                                                    Lorina
                                                    Five Rivers Chapmanry ~ purveyors of quality hand-crafted cooperage
                                                    fine hand-sewn embroidered garments, historical sewing patterns & embroidery
                                                    supplies
                                                    (519) 799-5577, fax (519) 799-5418 http://www.5rivers.org email:
                                                    info@...
                                                  • Scott Jeznach
                                                    Was this a sourdough bread, which would have required a starter to have been kept by the baker and therefore would have made a substantial difference in the
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Sep 19, 2002
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Was this a sourdough bread, which would
                                                      have required a starter to have been kept by the baker and therefore would
                                                      have made a substantial difference in the size, weight and texture of the
                                                      bread? Was this a barm bread made from the leftover ale yeast, which would
                                                      have again very much affected the size, weight and texture of the bread?

                                                      ......
                                                      And do we know for a fact they were using whole wheat flour? It was also
                                                      very common for rye flour to be used, as this was considered an inferior
                                                      form of flour (because of the lack of gluten which produces a light, high
                                                      loaf), less expensive, and therefore may have been used for the troops.

                                                      > Two very good points. Rye was grown in high abundance in the early colonial days of New England in the US due to favorable geographic conditions. (As a side bar, one theory for the infamous "bewitchings" which manifested itself in hallucinations which led to the witch trials, was a contamination of the rye known as "ergot" which apparently causes those who consume it to have hallucinations and body convulsions.)

                                                      >I use to date a master baker who ran her own bakery. Once a week an older German baker would come in and make a "sour" to be used the following day to make German Rye bread which is a very dense and heavy loaf of bread.

                                                      Scott J.
                                                      Royal Marines


                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • Larry Lozon
                                                      From: Lorina ... with what did they leaven their bread? And do we know for a fact they were using whole wheat flour? Just to play
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Sep 19, 2002
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        From: "Lorina" <lgsteph@...>


                                                        " ... with what did they leaven their bread?
                                                        And do we know for a fact they were using whole wheat flour?
                                                        Just to play devil's advocate here. ;-)
                                                        :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

                                                        Ok, Lorina ya little devil!

                                                        The question was what kind of bread was used, the question
                                                        that generates is "where?"

                                                        If'n we be talking about the Detroit area. Detroit was brewing beer
                                                        and making wine since the French settled it in the early 1700's.

                                                        Also, you know the French they love their bread and so they
                                                        grew wheat and had bakeries.

                                                        A baker from Detroit had a contract to bring loaves of bread to
                                                        Fort Amherstburg by boat in the early 1800's.

                                                        Hmmmmmmm beer, yeast
                                                        Hmmmmmmm bread, wheat


                                                        OK back to the Highland Scum ................
                                                        or was that Welsh Scum ............ maybe! :^)
                                                      • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                                        In a message dated 18/9/02 3:44:30 PM, drums1812@sympatico.ca writes: Quite right. It s
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Sep 20, 2002
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          In a message dated 18/9/02 3:44:30 PM, drums1812@... writes:

                                                          << Excuse me, but there is no such thing as "Highland scum"!!! >>

                                                          Quite right.

                                                          It's Highland bdbuighainbh, to be correct (that's pronounced 'Morag').

                                                          There's Lowland scum.
                                                          Irish scum.
                                                          Sassenach scum.
                                                          And then there's the Frogs.

                                                          ;-)
                                                          B
                                                          93rd Highlanders
                                                          THE Thin Red Line
                                                          www.93rdhighlanders.com
                                                        • PEGGY MATHEWS
                                                          (snip) ... You don t frighten us, English pig-dog. Go and boil your bottom, son of a silly person. I blow my nose at your so called Arthur King, you and
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Sep 20, 2002
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            (snip)
                                                            >There's Lowland scum.
                                                            >Irish scum.
                                                            >Sassenach scum.
                                                            >And then there's the Frogs.

                                                            "You don't frighten us, English pig-dog. Go and boil your bottom, son of a silly person. I blow my nose at your so called Arthur King, you and silly English Kkkkkk...niggets!" (blows raspberry) <VBG>

                                                            TTFN,

                                                            Michael
                                                            21e Regiment d'Infanterie de Ligne


                                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          • CRAIG WILLIAMS
                                                            What a strange person.. Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bread ... a silly person. I blow my nose at your so called Arthur King, you and silly English
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Sep 21, 2002
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              "What a strange person.."
                                                              Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Bread


                                                              > "You don't frighten us, English pig-dog. Go and boil your bottom, son of
                                                              a silly person. I blow my nose at your so called Arthur King, you and silly
                                                              English Kkkkkk...niggets!" (blows raspberry) <VBG>
                                                              >
                                                              > TTFN,
                                                              >
                                                              > Michael
                                                              > 21e Regiment d'Infanterie de Ligne
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                                                              square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                                                              square miles...
                                                              >
                                                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                            • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                                              In a message dated 20/9/02 6:49:40 PM, ciefranche21e@msn.com writes:
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Sep 23, 2002
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                In a message dated 20/9/02 6:49:40 PM, ciefranche21e@... writes:

                                                                << "You don't frighten us, English pig-dog. Go and boil your bottom, son of
                                                                a silly person. I blow my nose at your so called Arthur King, you and silly
                                                                English Kkkkkk...niggets!" (blows raspberry) <VBG> >>

                                                                "What a silly person."

                                                                B
                                                                93rd Highlanders
                                                                THE Thin Red Line
                                                                www.93rdhighlanders.com
                                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.