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Re: [WarOf1812] Re: madder red/natural plants

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  • Kevin Windsor
    I would be Peter! Lt K 89th
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 25, 2002
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      I would be Peter!
      Lt K 89th

      Peter Catley wrote:

      > Tracey,
      >
      > Would you like me to see if I can find Madder in seed form? :)
      >
      > Peter Catley
      >
    • Zorniak
      Dying of wool...does it really madder ? (oooh that one hurt) Madder was only part of the dying process. (Urine on the other hand...) Much of the scarlet dyed
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 25, 2002
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        Dying of wool...does it really "madder"? (oooh that one hurt)

        Madder was only part of the dying process. (Urine on the other hand...)

        Much of the scarlet dyed wool was done in Stroud and it would appear that Madder was an ingredient in later years. Cochineal (which came from the shells from a beetle
        was used extensively) and was by far the largest source of the red dye used in colouring the wool.

        A very interesting article was printed in Military Illustrated Past and Present February 1995 entitled "Making the Redcoat: British Army Uniform Manufacture".

        Have no fear. The article (in its entirety) is available on the web site that was used to publish "Red River Redcoats" (the currently defunct newsletter of the Forces of
        Lord Selkirk) on. (The newsletter may be again revived (with a little bit of luck). We (read that I) needed a break!

        If you would like to read the article feel free to do so by going to:

        www.geocities.com/rrredcoats/ARCHIVES.html

        The issue that the article appeared in was May 2000. The article is complete with recipes (for you adventurous types).

        Enjoy your read (and/or reads).

        Don Zorniak
        Editor Emeritus
        Red River Redcoats

        tracyforsyth2001 wrote:

        > Madder red die made from natural plants..... does anyone know what
        > type of plants would give this color?
        >
        > --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Scott Jeznach" <sjeznach@w...> wrote:
        > >
        > > I will also add that madder red is one of the easiest dies to
        > produce from natural plants and is dark enough to hide dirt. Unlike
        > the French white regimental coats.
        > > Scott J.
        > > Royal Marines
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Peter Catley
        Okay the search started yesterday over dinner with some friends! Peter Catley ... From: Kevin Windsor [mailto:kevin.windsor@sympatico.ca] Sent: 26 June 2002
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 26, 2002
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          Okay the search started yesterday over dinner with some friends!

          Peter Catley

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Kevin Windsor [mailto:kevin.windsor@...]
          Sent: 26 June 2002 02:29
          To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [WarOf1812] Re: madder red/natural plants

          I would be Peter!
          Lt K 89th

          Peter Catley wrote:

          > Tracey,
          >
          > Would you like me to see if I can find Madder in seed form? :)
          >
          > Peter Catley
          >



          The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
          square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
          square miles...

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Raymond Hobbs
          The purple dye used in the Greek and Roman period was harvested from the Murex shellfish - now virtually extinct in the Mediterranean. The site at which I
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 26, 2002
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            The 'purple dye' used in the Greek and Roman period was harvested from
            the Murex shellfish - now virtually extinct in the Mediterranean. The
            site at which I excavated for six years, Dor, was a centre for the
            making of the dye, and on site we found large pits filled with the
            crushed shells of these aquatic animals. On the basalt rocks on the
            shore you can still see the vats used to rot the first stage of the
            dye-making.
            The shells and creatures were crushed, then boiled in vats. They were
            then left out in the sun so that excess water could be evaporated and
            the thick residue could then be sifted in a highly concentrated form.
            The process was extremely labour intensive, and as far as we can
            determine was primarily a commercial venture by a few manufacturers -
            the process was also very tedious and long. The result was that a
            purple-dyed cloak, used by noibility and generals in the Roman Army,
            would cost the equivalent of $10,000 a piece. Hardly an argument for
            cheapness.
            The Geographer Strabo describes the evaporation process as smelling like
            rotten garlic - it was always downwind of any residential area. In this
            region the prevailing wind - for 90% of the year - was from the south
            west.
            A bit off topic - but interesting. Just shows you to what expense the
            'nobility' will go to make themselves look good - hey that sounds like
            our 1812 staff!!!
            Ray Hobbs
            41st Regt. of Foot

            Zorniak wrote:

            >
            > When we dyed wool with cochineal it produced a brilliant red colour,
            > not really a purple (the source of the royal purple dye interestingly
            > enough came from a Greek
            > shellfish).
            >
            > Don Zorniak
            > Chemist Emeritus
            >
            > Scott Jeznach wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > >That's interesting. It was my understanding that cochineal was
            > more expensive and produced a more "purple" tinted red, more
            > appropriate for upper classes and officers.
            > >
            > > Scott J.
            > > Royal Marines.
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds
            > of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of
            > THOUSANDS of square miles...
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Scott Jeznach
            Madder was only part of the dying process. (Urine on the other hand...) Much of the scarlet dyed wool was done in Stroud and it would appear that Madder was an
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 26, 2002
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              Madder was only part of the dying process. (Urine on the other hand...)

              Much of the scarlet dyed wool was done in Stroud and it would appear that Madder was an ingredient in later years. Cochineal (which came from the shells from a beetle
              was used extensively) and was by far the largest source of the red dye used in colouring the wool.

              >That's interesting. It was my understanding that cochineal was more expensive and produced a more "purple" tinted red, more appropriate for upper classes and officers.

              Scott J.
              Royal Marines.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Zorniak
              Many years ago when I worked as a chemist we used cochineal for various tests. When we dyed wool with cochineal it produced a brilliant red colour, not really
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 26, 2002
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                Many years ago when I worked as a chemist we used cochineal for various tests.

                When we dyed wool with cochineal it produced a brilliant red colour, not really a purple (the source of the royal purple dye interestingly enough came from a Greek
                shellfish).

                Cochineal was expensive (as it came from the American tropics and someone had to select only the females of that species of insect...which makes you wonder how they "sexed"
                them) and that is probably why in later years they used a combination of Madder root (from Eurasian origin) and cochineal. Madder gives a strong red but tends to lean
                towards more of an "orangey" red (no worry about the sex of a root). This is probably why they used a combination of the two.

                Don Zorniak
                Chemist Emeritus

                Scott Jeznach wrote:

                >
                > >That's interesting. It was my understanding that cochineal was more expensive and produced a more "purple" tinted red, more appropriate for upper classes and officers.
                >
                > Scott J.
                > Royal Marines.
                >
                >
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