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Re: [WarOf1812] Questions

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  • easeufe@aol.com
    In a message dated 8/30/01 4:08:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Sara: In addition to the sites Larry listed, you may also want to visit:
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 30, 2001
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      In a message dated 8/30/01 4:08:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      lalozon@... writes:


      > " ... I've got a bunch questions ...
      > ... I'm writing a book set in 1814
      > and I know these answers
      > must be out there somewhere!
      > ..........................
      >

      Sara:
      In addition to the sites Larry listed, you may also want to visit:

      http://broadside.napoleonicwars.com/

      http://www.hms.org.uk/

      HMS is the site of the "Historical Maritime Society', an excellent group of
      Napoleonic Royal Navy re-enactors in England. As part of their web site, you
      can submit questions that members will respond to.

      Incidentally, in the Royal Navy there are approximately 45 different titles
      of officers, petty officers and other rankings that could be found aboard a
      large man-o'-war.

      Ed Seufert, LCpl
      1812 Royal Marines
      1st Co/2nd Batt RM



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • brookstne@aol.com
      45!! Oh gosh! I think I ll stick with sloops! LOL. Thanks Ed, I ll run check out the sites! Sara ... titles ... aboard a
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 30, 2001
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        45!! Oh gosh! I think I'll stick with sloops! LOL.
        Thanks Ed, I'll run check out the sites!
        Sara
        >
        > Incidentally, in the Royal Navy there are approximately 45 different
        titles
        > of officers, petty officers and other rankings that could be found
        aboard a
        > large man-o'-war.
        >
        > Ed Seufert, LCpl
        > 1812 Royal Marines
        > 1st Co/2nd Batt RM
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Roger Marsh
        Sloops? Why, there s a can of worms, Ma am, I do Assure you, ship- sloops, brig-sloops, snow-sloops, ketch-sloops, even cutter-sloops and
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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          Sloops? Why, there's a can of worms, Ma'am, I do Assure you, ship-
          sloops, brig-sloops, snow-sloops, ketch-sloops, even cutter-sloops
          and old-ship-of-the-line-armed-"en flûte" sloops - it is all a
          question of the rank of their commander, do you see.

          Then there are fore-and-aft sloops, a vessel sloop-rigged with gaff
          mainsail and 2 or more headsails, a rig which would later be
          called "cutter", as small warships particularly used by both sides on
          the Great Lakes......

          Perhaps you will need to buy my book, when it is published!

          I second the recommendation from Ed Seufert, LCpl 1812 Royal Marines
          1st Co/2nd Batt RM, to look at the HMS site, a fine body of men,
          Ma'am, who I had the Honour of reviewing with His Britannic Majesty G
          III at IFOS last weekend. You do not need to register to join the
          forum, as I have not; you will find more on sloops in a recent
          discussion there, and it would be a fine place to post your enquiry
          about ranks, particularly those of the British Sea-Service.

          Ed's other recommended site is new to me; thanks for that, Ed.

          Regards,

          Roger Marsh

          --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:
          >
          > 45!! Oh gosh! I think I'll stick with sloops! LOL.
          > Thanks Ed, I'll run check out the sites!
          > Sara
          > >
        • Roger Marsh
          Sadly, Ma am? Well, the degree of tristesse experienced will depend, will it not? upon one s point of view. Why, Ma am. I confide that he will be treated with
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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            Sadly, Ma'am? Well, the degree of tristesse experienced will depend,
            will it not? upon one's point of view. Why, Ma'am. I confide that he
            will be treated with HonoUr, as a respected vanquish'd foe, if he has
            himself Display'd the like quality in his Conduckt.

            Sara, there is just too much necessary detail on warrant and seamen's
            ranks for me to cover here, and just the subject of what vessels were
            called by their contemporaries in the age of sail – frigate, sloop,
            tender, bark, schooner, bomb, ship, Third Rate, advice, prize &c. –
            is enough for a fair-length book, which indeed I am in the process of
            writing and assembling (the illustrations etc.).

            For your purposes, you needs must buy "NELSON'S NAVY The Ships, Men
            and Organisation 1793-1815", Brian Lavery, Conway Maritime Press,
            1989, which contains an overview of almost all you will need as a
            novelist (unless you wish to get as technical in shiphandling and
            gunnery details as Patrick O'Brian or C.S. Forester), including 4
            chapters covering officers, naval recruitment, seamen and landmen,
            marines, then life on board etc – plus the ships, armament, fleet
            organisation, summary of types of ships, handling, bases, fighting
            tactics, and so on. It contains substantial sections, including ones
            on officers and men, on the major navies of France and Spain, the
            minor one of the USA, and shorter sections on other foreign (to the
            British) navies.

            Brian Lavery, of the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich (London) is
            one of the leading authorities of the world on his subject, and also
            eminently readable.

            I would also most thoroughly recommend the last in the 6-part series
            in the Chatham Publishing Pictorial Histories series, "The Naval War
            of 1812", a magnificent and, I think, pretty well-balanced volume;
            originally on sale @ £ 30 , or $ 45 , it is currently on sale at
            County Bookshops as a publisher's remnant @ £ 7.99 – about $ 12.00 –
            a great bargain, if any are still to be Hadd, Ma'am.

            You might like to read the fictional, though factional, passages in
            PO'B which deal with his heroes' fights against US opposition, his
            personal score being 1-all, they being taken in "Java" under Lambert
            (38) by Hull and "Constitution" (44) and kept as US prisoners of war,
            and also later aboard Broke's "Shannon" in her short but extremely
            fierce and bloody battle with "Chesapeake" under poor "Don't give up
            the ship" Lawrence (both 38s). We still have many of "Chesapeake's "
            timbers here in Hampshire, in a mill built in 1820 near Portsmouth,
            from her timbers after breaking up.

            I wish you Joy of it, Ma'am. As a fellow-writer, do feel free to
            contact me off-list at the frigates e-dress, if the whim or need
            should so take you.

            As always, your Servant, Ma'am,

            Roger Marsh

            "If blood be the price of Admiralty
            Then, Lord, we ha' paid in full."


            --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:

            > Roger--
            >
            (SNIP)

            And, you're
            > right I do need to understand the British side since, sadly, my
            hero > IS taken.
            >
            > I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.
            > Sara
            >
          • Roger Marsh
            Bainbridge, of course, not Hull. Roger ... (SNIP) they being taken in Java under Lambert ... war...(SNIP)
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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              Bainbridge, of course, not Hull.

              Roger

              --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Roger Marsh" <frigates@m...> wrote:
              (SNIP) they being taken in "Java" under Lambert
              > (38) by Hull and "Constitution" (44) and kept as US prisoners of
              war...(SNIP)>
            • J R
              I am not positive, but I believe a Captain commands a ship, an Admiral commands a fleet, and a Commodore is in charge of a Port. I think thats how it works
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                I am not positive, but I believe a Captain commands a ship, an Admiral
                commands a fleet, and a Commodore is in charge of a Port. I think thats how
                it works but as I said im not for sure.



                >From: brookstne@...
                >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                >To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Questions
                >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:56:54 -0000
                >
                >You're right James...
                >I actually know this one. Commodore was not a temporary title in the
                >US Navy, though I'm not precisely sure what sort of command a
                >Commodore had. It seems like to me, it was more of a "kick them
                >upstairs" move. As in Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry (of 1812 fame)
                >who opened trade to Japan for the US.
                >Oh and thanks Scott for listing "names" like "bosun's mate" that was
                >quite helpful.
                >Sara -- see? I'm not completely hopeless.
                >
                >
                > > I believe the Rank of Commodore was different in
                > > the U.S.Navy. In the Royal Navy it was a captain in
                > > command of a squadron.A tempory title.
                > > James Barnwell
                > >
                > > --- Scott Jeznach <scottj@c...> wrote:
                > > > > 1. Where can I find a list of "positions" and/or
                >
                > > > It's my understanding the Royal Navy and US Navy
                > > > mirrored each other when it
                > > > came to most naval ratings
                >


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              • Dave Hill
                Hi Sara, As Roger pointed out, in the Royal Navy, there were only three commissioned ranks, admiral, post captain and lieutenant. The problem in understanding
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                  Hi Sara,

                  As Roger pointed out, in the Royal Navy, there were only three
                  commissioned ranks, admiral, post captain and lieutenant. The
                  problem in understanding the system is that in addition to these
                  actual ranks there were positional ranks. Anyone who commanded a
                  vessel was referred to as the Captain, but his substantive rank
                  could be lieutenant or, in the case of a prize, the temporary
                  "Captain" could be a midshipman or a master's mate.

                  A commodore was a positional rank and there were two kinds of
                  commodores. One was a Post Captain who commanded his own ship and
                  several other ships, the other was a Post Captain whose flagship was
                  commanded by another Post Captain. You can think of one as a senior
                  Captain and the other as a junior Admiral.

                  One mistake people make when speaking of ranks is that they consider
                  commissioned officers as one group (admiral, post captain and
                  lieutenant) and the enlisted men as the other group and the leave out
                  the third group entirely. Particularly in the Napoleonic Royal Navy,
                  this third group is very important. These are the Warrant Officers.
                  All of the "tradesmen" aboard ship (sail maker, cooper, bosun,
                  sailing master, gunner, carpenter, etc.) held "Warrants" from the
                  Admiralty. Like a commission, a warrant can only be taken away by
                  promotion, death, resignation, or court martial. Before someone
                  jumps all over me, I should point out that the gunner's warrant came
                  from the Board of Ordinance not the Admiralty.

                  The non-commissioned ranks i.e. petty officer, mates (gunner's mate,
                  master's mate, bosun's mate, etc.), usually held only in that
                  particular ship and an individual could be "busted" back to able
                  seaman by the Captain, even if he were only a lieutenant.

                  The U.S. Navy was, I understand, very similar but different.
                  Commodore in the U.S. Navy was a rank not a position; but then I
                  don't believe the U.S. Navy in 1812 had any Admirals.

                  Someone asked who the Secretary of the Navy was during the War of
                  1812. At the beginning the Secretary was Paul Hamilton. He was
                  replaced, in 1813, by William Jones of Philadelphia, a former
                  congressman, merchant, veteran of Trenton and Princeton who had
                  served on a privateer during the Revolution.

                  Dave.
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                • brookstne@aol.com
                  Dave... I think I m beginning to untangle all this. Thank you so much! You did help clear up a bit of my confusion. Also, it was I who asked about Sec. of
                  Message 8 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                    Dave...
                    I think I'm beginning to untangle all this. Thank you so much! You
                    did help clear up a bit of my confusion. Also, it was I who asked
                    about Sec. of Navy....so thanks for that too.
                    Sara

                    --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Dave Hill" <dave.bev@h...> wrote:
                    > Hi Sara,
                    >
                    > As Roger pointed out, in the Royal Navy, there were only three
                    > commissioned ranks, admiral, post captain and lieutenant. >
                    > The U.S. Navy was, I understand, very similar but different.
                    > Commodore in the U.S. Navy was a rank not a position; but then I
                    > don't believe the U.S. Navy in 1812 had any Admirals.
                    >
                    > Someone asked who the Secretary of the Navy was during the War of
                    > 1812. At the beginning the Secretary was Paul Hamilton. He was
                    > replaced, in 1813, by William Jones of Philadelphia, a former
                    > congressman, merchant, veteran of Trenton and Princeton who had
                    > served on a privateer during the Revolution.
                    >
                    > Dave.
                    > _______________________________________________________________
                    > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                    > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                  • brookstne@aol.com
                    Roger... I m afraid I ve haven t the best experience in mind for my hero, for what would be the point of a story without conflict, eh? Well, I don t want to
                    Message 9 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                      Roger...
                      I'm afraid I've haven't the best experience in mind for my hero, for
                      what would be the point of a story without conflict, eh?

                      Well, I don't want to monopolize the list with my mundane
                      curiosities, so I will once more fade away until such time I have
                      more burning questions.

                      Thank you to all who have helped me. Your hints, sites and
                      explanations have been invaluable!

                      Though I confess to being stuck on that marriage question still.
                      Again...my thanks...
                      Sara


                      --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Roger Marsh" <frigates@m...> wrote:
                      > Sadly, Ma'am? Well, the degree of tristesse experienced will
                      depend, will it not? upon one's point of view.
                    • Roger Marsh
                      And your captain s mast - never heard of such a phrase, I must admit. Do let us know when you are about to publish. And please rest assured, Sara, that your
                      Message 10 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                        And your "captain's mast" - never heard of such a phrase, I must
                        admit.

                        Do let us know when you are about to publish. And please rest
                        assured, Sara, that your "mundane curiosities" are nothing of the
                        sort, but very welcome to those few of us on the Forum, on either
                        side of the Pond, who have naval interests.

                        Kind regards,

                        Roger Marsh

                        "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I only say
                        they will not come by sea". (Admiral Sir John Jervis, Earl St.
                        Vincent, 1801).

                        --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:
                        > (SNIP)> Well, I don't want to monopolize the list with my , so I
                        will once more fade away until such time I have
                        > more burning questions. (SNIP)> Though I confess to being stuck on
                        that marriage question still.
                        > Again...my thanks...
                        > Sara
                        >
                      • HQ93rd@aol.com
                        In a message dated 31/08/01 7:08:49 AM, schultz23@hotmail.com writes: and a Commodore is in charge of a Port. I think thats how
                        Message 11 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                          In a message dated 31/08/01 7:08:49 AM, schultz23@... writes:

                          << I am not positive, <snip> and a Commodore is in charge of a Port. I think
                          thats how
                          it works but as I said im not for sure. >>

                          Aha!
                          Bob and John G -- we have to find a commode! That's where they keep the port!
                          (Bob, I'll bring my own glass drinking cup.)

                          B
                          93rd SHRoFLHU
                          THE Thin Red Line
                          www.93rdhighlanders.com
                        • Scott Jeznach
                          ... It s used in the modern US Navy vernacular for non-US Code of Military Justice punishment (a.k.a.: Article 15 punishment in the US Army) meted out by the
                          Message 12 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                            > And your "captain's mast" - never heard of such a phrase, I must
                            > admit.

                            It's used in the modern US Navy vernacular for non-US Code of Military
                            Justice punishment (a.k.a.: Article 15 punishment in the US Army) meted out
                            by the commander (or Captain) as an alternative to a Courts-Martial.
                            Perhaps it derives for punishment meted out aboard ship when there was no
                            port to conduct a formal board of adjudication.

                            Scott J.
                            Royal Marines
                          • J R
                            Captains Mast is a Naval term like you said the Marines use a similar thing called Office hours, its a form of Punishment under the UCMJ, or Uniform Code of
                            Message 13 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                              Captains Mast is a Naval term like you said the Marines use a similar thing
                              called Office hours, its a form of Punishment under the UCMJ, or Uniform
                              Code of Military Justice. Its certainly nothing you want to have to endure,
                              I had to watch 3 of them and all three of them went to the brig.

                              John Ritter
                              US Marine Corps





                              Only the Soldier is a free man for he can stare Death in the face! -Schiller
                              >From: "Scott Jeznach" Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: Re:
                              >[WarOf1812] Re: Questions Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:58:12 -0400
                              >
                              > > And your "captain's mast" - never heard of such a phrase, I must >
                              >admit.
                              >
                              >It's used in the modern US Navy vernacular for non-US Code of Military
                              >Justice punishment (a.k.a.: Article 15 punishment in the US Army) meted out
                              >by the commander (or Captain) as an alternative to a Courts-Martial.
                              >Perhaps it derives for punishment meted out aboard ship when there was no
                              >port to conduct a formal board of adjudication.
                              >
                              >Scott J. Royal Marines
                              >

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                            • Dour Celt
                              The term Captain s mast was common during the days of sail, both military and civilian. It recalled the practice of the captain standing at the mainmast meting
                              Message 14 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                                The term Captain's mast was common during the days of sail, both
                                military and civilian. It recalled the practice of the captain
                                standing at the mainmast meting out punishment and/or praise. It was
                                the equivalent to what we call in modern times by the legal term
                                non-judicial punishment. It was also a place for recognizing
                                accomplishment.

                                Arthur McGinley
                                mcginley@...
                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                -----------------------
                                "Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have."
                                - Harry Emerson Fosdick

                                "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his
                                government."
                                - Edward Abbey (1927-1989) US author

                                "If you don't see the bottom, don't wade."
                                - Scottish Proverb

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Roger Marsh" <frigates@...>
                                To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:34 PM
                                Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Questions


                                > And your "captain's mast" - never heard of such a phrase, I must
                                > admit.
                                >
                                > Do let us know when you are about to publish. And please rest
                                > assured, Sara, that your "mundane curiosities" are nothing of the
                                > sort, but very welcome to those few of us on the Forum, on either
                                > side of the Pond, who have naval interests.
                                >
                                > Kind regards,
                                >
                                > Roger Marsh
                                >
                                > "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I only say
                                > they will not come by sea". (Admiral Sir John Jervis, Earl St.
                                > Vincent, 1801).
                                >
                                > --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:
                                > > (SNIP)> Well, I don't want to monopolize the list with my , so I
                                > will once more fade away until such time I have
                                > > more burning questions. (SNIP)> Though I confess to being stuck on
                                > that marriage question still.
                                > > Again...my thanks...
                                > > Sara
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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                                > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                                hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
                                fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
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                              • colsjtjones2000@yahoo.ca
                                For anyone interested in the position/duties of a British bos n, refer to the current discussion on the HMS site mentioned before. Doug
                                Message 15 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                                  For anyone interested in the position/duties of a British bos'n,
                                  refer to the current discussion on the HMS site mentioned before.
                                  Doug
                                • Armchairadm@cs.com
                                  Commodore is, in fact a temporary or honorary title / rank in the US Navy of the War of 1812 period. It is applied to the senior officer commanding a group of
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Aug 31, 2001
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                                    Commodore is, in fact a temporary or honorary title / rank in the US Navy of
                                    the War of 1812 period. It is applied to the senior officer commanding a
                                    group of warships. It is true that many US naval officers continued to fly a
                                    Commodore's Broad Pennant on a semi-permanent basis & insisted on being
                                    addressed as Commodore, however there is no permanent rank above that of
                                    Capt. in the US Navy prior to 1862.

                                    Ed Bolla



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Roger Marsh
                                    Ed s message confirms Lavery s notes, in Nelson s Navy , on US naval practice. There was, of course, no possibility of admiral s rank, since the USA had no
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 1, 2001
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                                      Ed's message confirms Lavery's notes, in "Nelson's Navy", on US naval
                                      practice.

                                      There was, of course, no possibility of admiral's rank, since the USA
                                      had no fleet, being a frigate and sloop navy; the firepower of the
                                      entire US navy would not have matched that of just one medium-sized
                                      European battlefleet at sea.

                                      The senior frigate captains promoted to Commodore, such as
                                      Bainbridge, Hull, Decatur, seem to have guarded the title jealously,
                                      however, since it was the highest rank they could achieve in the US
                                      Navy, even if in fact a temporary one. They could not become admirals
                                      with a permanent title as could their British, French, Spanish,
                                      Swedish, Dutch and so on, counterparts.

                                      Regards,

                                      Roger Marsh

                                      --- In WarOf1812@y..., Armchairadm@c... wrote:
                                      > Commodore is, in fact a temporary or honorary title / rank in the
                                      US Navy of
                                      > the War of 1812 period. It is applied to the senior officer
                                      commanding a
                                      > group of warships. It is true that many US naval officers
                                      continued to fly a
                                      > Commodore's Broad Pennant on a semi-permanent basis & insisted on
                                      being
                                      > addressed as Commodore, however there is no permanent rank above
                                      that of
                                      > Capt. in the US Navy prior to 1862.
                                      >
                                      > Ed Bolla
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Charlie McCulloh
                                      I ve been picking at these doubled over wool strips for three months whenever I get the chance. I ve been told that the fringe on our 4th Foot (Grenadier
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 19, 2006
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                                        I've been picking at these doubled over wool strips for three months
                                        whenever I get the chance. I've been told that the fringe on our 4th
                                        Foot (Grenadier Company) shoulder epaulettes was made this way.

                                        Q:
                                        Is that correct?
                                        Q:
                                        Is there a simpler method than the laborious picking of single strands?
                                        Q:
                                        AND for God's sake, can you buy this pre-made of a correct
                                        construction and quality?

                                        Inquiring minds want to know.

                                        Charlie McCulloh
                                        4th Foot (The Kings Own)
                                        On the Gulf Coast
                                      • James Yaworsky
                                        ... Terminology clarification: only officers coats have epaulettes... ranker and NCO coats have shoulder straps . Line companies have shoulder straps with
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                          --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie McCulloh"
                                          <moosenmoo35244@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I've been picking at these doubled over wool strips for three months
                                          > whenever I get the chance. I've been told that the fringe on our 4th
                                          > Foot (Grenadier Company) shoulder epaulettes was made this way.
                                          >
                                          > Q:
                                          > Is that correct?
                                          > Q:
                                          > Is there a simpler method than the laborious picking of single strands?
                                          > Q:
                                          > AND for God's sake, can you buy this pre-made of a correct
                                          > construction and quality?
                                          >
                                          > Inquiring minds want to know.
                                          >
                                          > Charlie McCulloh
                                          > 4th Foot (The Kings Own)
                                          > On the Gulf Coast
                                          >

                                          Terminology clarification: only officers' coats have epaulettes...
                                          ranker and NCO coats have "shoulder straps".

                                          Line companies have shoulder straps with rather large tufts along
                                          their base (where the shoulder strap is sewn in to the top of the arm
                                          seam).

                                          Grenadier and Light Company coats generally don't have similar tufts.

                                          They have, instead, "wings", which are small pieces of fabric sewn in
                                          to the top of the arm seam that sort of hang down a few inches over
                                          the sleeve. These "wings" are edged in regimental lace, with 6
                                          "darts" of regimental lace spaced evenly but at an angle across their
                                          width from the seam to the bottom edge of the wing (the part closest
                                          to the ground when you wear the coat).

                                          Some wings have, in addition to regimental lace edging their bottom, a
                                          "fringe" of strands of wool. This strand seems to vary in its size
                                          from unit to unit - in some cases, it seems almost as dense as the
                                          line company shoulder tuft, in other cases, it looks rather minimal.

                                          The logical person(s) to help out on this inquiry (assuming I have
                                          understood and laid it out properly above) would be members of
                                          grenadier companies (and/or maybe light companies) who have some
                                          experience of putting tuft edging on their wings. How about it, guys?
                                          What's the story? This inquiring mind also wants to know.


                                          Jim Yaworsky
                                          Line Company, 41st - "No expert in grenadier or light company wing
                                          fringes."
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