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[WarOf1812] Questions

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  • brookstne@aol.com
    Hello... I ve been lurking on the list for quite some time. Not sure what I could add, so I ve just have been listening . But I ve got a bunch questions and
    Message 1 of 29 , Aug 30 12:33 PM
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      Hello...
      I've been lurking on the list for quite some time. Not sure what I could
      add, so I've just have been "listening". But I've got a bunch questions and
      I'm hoping someone out there can help. I'm writing a book (women's
      fiction--don't think bodice ripper) set in 1814 and I know these answers
      must be out there somewhere!

      1. Where can I find a list of "positions" and/or "ranks" for men on American
      naval vessels? I know the basic officer names, Capt., Lt., Midshipmen, but
      what are the non-officers (were they called "enlisted"?) called?
      2. Who was the Secretary of the Navy in 1814?
      3. Was the requirement that someone who wants to get married have permission
      from their commanding officer in place back then? And what happens to
      someone if they don't ask first?
      4. Can someone explain the Captain's mast?

      Well, that's it. I'm sure I'm going to have several more. I hope you don't
      mind my picking your brains. I'm stunned by the amount of information you
      all have.
      Thanks, and if I'm out of line, I'll apologize ahead of time.
      Sara Olds
    • Scott Jeznach
      ... American ... It s my understanding the Royal Navy and US Navy mirrored each other when it came to most naval ratings. There was an entire span of ratings
      Message 2 of 29 , Aug 30 12:46 PM
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        > 1. Where can I find a list of "positions" and/or "ranks" for men on
        American
        > naval vessels? I know the basic officer names, Capt., Lt., Midshipmen, but
        > what are the non-officers (were they called "enlisted"?) called?

        It's my understanding the Royal Navy and US Navy mirrored each other when it
        came to most naval ratings. There was an entire span of ratings for the
        "enlisted" men. Men with no training were called "landsmen or landsman,"
        trained men were called "seamen or seaman," men with training and
        experience in leading seamen were called "bo'sun or "boatswain," they had
        assistants called "bo'sun's mates." Then you had the petty ranks for
        specialists such as "gunners," gunners mates," "carpenter," "carpenter's
        mate,"etc., etc,

        Scott J.
        Royal Marines
      • Larry Lozon
        From: ... I ve got a bunch questions ... ... I m writing a book set in 1814 and I know these answers must be out there somewhere!
        Message 3 of 29 , Aug 30 12:49 PM
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          From: <brookstne@...>

          " ... I've got a bunch questions ...
          ... I'm writing a book set in 1814
          and I know these answers
          must be out there somewhere!
          ..........................


          Sara: You may want to visit

          http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/marit.htm

          http://www.hhpl.on.ca/GreatLakes/Documents/shiplists/macpherson.htm

          http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~jacktar/privateering.html

          whilst you wait for replies from this 1812 list.
        • james barnwell
          Sara; Two books that I would reccomend would be: Naval war of 1812 by Theodore Roosevelt and American Sailing Navy,I forget its Author-Chapelle? Enlisted were
          Message 4 of 29 , Aug 30 3:11 PM
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            Sara;
            Two books that I would reccomend would be:
            Naval war of 1812 by Theodore Roosevelt and
            American Sailing Navy,I forget its Author-Chapelle?
            Enlisted were classified as either A.B.-Able
            Bodied or as Ordinary Seamen-(land lubbers).
            There is a series of books Historical Fiction,on
            the American Revolution,Authors sirname Nelson,which
            give an accurate description of how hard life was for
            the ships crew.
            Jim Barnwell
            --- brookstne@... wrote:
            > Hello...
            > I've been lurking on the list for quite some time.
            > Not sure what I could
            > add, so I've just have been "listening". But I've
            > got a bunch questions and
            > I'm hoping someone out there can help. I'm writing
            > a book (women's
            > fiction--don't think bodice ripper) set in 1814 and
            > I know these answers
            > must be out there somewhere!
            >
            > 1. Where can I find a list of "positions" and/or
            > "ranks" for men on American
            > naval vessels? I know the basic officer names,
            > Capt., Lt., Midshipmen, but
            > what are the non-officers (were they called
            > "enlisted"?) called?
            > 2. Who was the Secretary of the Navy in 1814?
            > 3. Was the requirement that someone who wants to get
            > married have permission
            > from their commanding officer in place back then?
            > And what happens to
            > someone if they don't ask first?
            > 4. Can someone explain the Captain's mast?
            >
            > Well, that's it. I'm sure I'm going to have several
            > more. I hope you don't
            > mind my picking your brains. I'm stunned by the
            > amount of information you
            > all have.
            > Thanks, and if I'm out of line, I'll apologize ahead
            > of time.
            > Sara Olds
            >


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          • james barnwell
            Scott; I believe the Rank of Commodore was different in the U.S.Navy. In the Royal Navy it was a captain in command of a squadron.A tempory title. James
            Message 5 of 29 , Aug 30 3:14 PM
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              Scott;
              I believe the Rank of Commodore was different in
              the U.S.Navy. In the Royal Navy it was a captain in
              command of a squadron.A tempory title.
              James Barnwell

              --- Scott Jeznach <scottj@...> wrote:
              > > 1. Where can I find a list of "positions" and/or
              > "ranks" for men on
              > American
              > > naval vessels? I know the basic officer names,
              > Capt., Lt., Midshipmen, but
              > > what are the non-officers (were they called
              > "enlisted"?) called?
              >
              > It's my understanding the Royal Navy and US Navy
              > mirrored each other when it
              > came to most naval ratings. There was an entire
              > span of ratings for the
              > "enlisted" men. Men with no training were called
              > "landsmen or landsman,"
              > trained men were called "seamen or seaman," men
              > with training and
              > experience in leading seamen were called "bo'sun or
              > "boatswain," they had
              > assistants called "bo'sun's mates." Then you had
              > the petty ranks for
              > specialists such as "gunners," gunners mates,"
              > "carpenter," "carpenter's
              > mate,"etc., etc,
              >
              > Scott J.
              > Royal Marines
              >
              >


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            • james barnwell
              Larry; Those sites are very interesting! Thank You for posting them! Jim Barnwell ... http://www.hhpl.on.ca/GreatLakes/Documents/shiplists/macpherson.htm ...
              Message 6 of 29 , Aug 30 3:18 PM
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                Larry;
                Those sites are very interesting! Thank You for
                posting them!
                Jim Barnwell
                --- Larry Lozon <lalozon@...> wrote:
                > From: <brookstne@...>
                >
                > " ... I've got a bunch questions ...
                > ... I'm writing a book set in 1814
                > and I know these answers
                > must be out there somewhere!
                > ..........................
                >
                >
                > Sara: You may want to visit
                >
                > http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/marit.htm
                >
                >
                http://www.hhpl.on.ca/GreatLakes/Documents/shiplists/macpherson.htm
                >
                > http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~jacktar/privateering.html
                >
                > whilst you wait for replies from this 1812 list.
                >
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                >
                >
                >


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              • Roger Marsh
                ... (SNIP) ... American ... Midshipmen, but ... Sara, I believe the US navy generally followed its parent the British Royal Navy, but there may be variations
                Message 7 of 29 , Aug 30 3:27 PM
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                  --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:
                  > Hello...
                  (SNIP)
                  >
                  > 1. Where can I find a list of "positions" and/or "ranks" for men on
                  American
                  > naval vessels? I know the basic officer names, Capt., Lt.,
                  Midshipmen, but
                  > what are the non-officers (were they called "enlisted"?) called?
                  > (SNIP)

                  Sara, I believe the US navy generally followed its parent the British
                  Royal Navy, but there may be variations in the US service of which I
                  am unaware. I can cover British conventions for you, however; you'll
                  need to know this anyway, for when your hero takes - or is taken by! –
                  a British enemy vessel.

                  Dealing first with officers, in British service, things were both
                  simple and complicated - with the usual British web of meanings,
                  often confusing. Simple in that there were in fact only 3 basic
                  grades of commissioned officer, admiral, post captain and lieutenant;
                  complicated in that these were then subdivided or given temporary job-
                  titles which were treated as ranks in some respects but which were
                  held only so long as the job lasted - such as commodore (a post-
                  captain in command of several vessels, a squadron, or small fleet),
                  or commander/master and commander (a lieutenant appointed to command
                  of a vessel below a 6th Rate, usually a sloop, below 20 guns, who
                  would nevertheless be called "captain" [by courtesy] whilst in that
                  command [like Cook, a lieutenant in rank for his first voyages of
                  discovery, formerly a master - or Bligh when commanding "Bounty"]
                  though reverting to plain "lieutenant" if he subsequently found
                  himself without a command). There were 9 grades of admiral, full,
                  vice and rear of the red, white or blue.

                  A midshipman was, strictly speaking, not an officer, though a
                  gentleman, officer material, quarterdeck material; he was appointed
                  by the Admiralty, not commissioned by the monarch, so did not hold
                  His Majesty's commission as an officer. Many future officers, great
                  ones too, served as "captains' servants" in a similar way, appointed
                  and taken on board as junior quarterdeck trainees by their captain –
                  like Horatio Nelson himself. Either of these ranks could be dis-rated
                  to plain Able Seaman – though still "gentleman" able seaman,
                  not "tars" or "tarpaulins", and potential officers – by their
                  captain, as happened to young Edward Pellew, by his Captain Philemon
                  Pownoll of the frigate "Blonde", who then became his great patron
                  and fostered Pellew's career (until killed in action with the French
                  frigate "Stanialaus" off the coast of the Austrian Netherlands).

                  So, complicated enough, without starting on the warrant officers and
                  below – this to follow; it's time to hit the hammock now.

                  Regards,

                  Roger Marsh
                  Hampshire, England
                • brookstne@aol.com
                  Those sites are great! Thanks Larry! And thanks too, to Jim for those titles. I m embarrassed to say I should ve thought of the Theodore Roosevelt book. Sara
                  Message 8 of 29 , Aug 30 3:42 PM
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                    Those sites are great! Thanks Larry!

                    And thanks too, to Jim for those titles. I'm embarrassed to say I
                    should've thought of the Theodore Roosevelt book.
                    Sara

                    -- In WarOf1812@y..., james barnwell <barnlll@y...> wrote:
                    > Larry;
                    > Those sites are very interesting! Thank You for
                    > posting them!
                    > Jim Barnwell
                    >
                  • brookstne@aol.com
                    Roger-- Many thanks for the explanation, I think I ve about got it--well, sort of--I m still reading in through until it sinks in. And, you re right I do need
                    Message 9 of 29 , Aug 30 3:50 PM
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                      Roger--

                      Many thanks for the explanation, I think I've about got it--well,
                      sort of--I'm still reading in through until it sinks in. And, you're
                      right I do need to understand the British side since, sadly, my hero
                      IS taken.

                      I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.
                      Sara

                      >you'll need to know this anyway, for when your hero takes - or is
                      >taken by! – a British enemy vessel.
                      >
                      >
                    • brookstne@aol.com
                      You re right James... I actually know this one. Commodore was not a temporary title in the US Navy, though I m not precisely sure what sort of command a
                      Message 10 of 29 , Aug 30 3:56 PM
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                        You're right James...
                        I actually know this one. Commodore was not a temporary title in the
                        US Navy, though I'm not precisely sure what sort of command a
                        Commodore had. It seems like to me, it was more of a "kick them
                        upstairs" move. As in Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry (of 1812 fame)
                        who opened trade to Japan for the US.
                        Oh and thanks Scott for listing "names" like "bosun's mate" that was
                        quite helpful.
                        Sara -- see? I'm not completely hopeless.


                        > I believe the Rank of Commodore was different in
                        > the U.S.Navy. In the Royal Navy it was a captain in
                        > command of a squadron.A tempory title.
                        > James Barnwell
                        >
                        > --- Scott Jeznach <scottj@c...> wrote:
                        > > > 1. Where can I find a list of "positions" and/or

                        > > It's my understanding the Royal Navy and US Navy
                        > > mirrored each other when it
                        > > came to most naval ratings
                      • easeufe@aol.com
                        In a message dated 8/30/01 4:08:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Sara: In addition to the sites Larry listed, you may also want to visit:
                        Message 11 of 29 , Aug 30 6:54 PM
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                          In a message dated 8/30/01 4:08:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                          lalozon@... writes:


                          > " ... I've got a bunch questions ...
                          > ... I'm writing a book set in 1814
                          > and I know these answers
                          > must be out there somewhere!
                          > ..........................
                          >

                          Sara:
                          In addition to the sites Larry listed, you may also want to visit:

                          http://broadside.napoleonicwars.com/

                          http://www.hms.org.uk/

                          HMS is the site of the "Historical Maritime Society', an excellent group of
                          Napoleonic Royal Navy re-enactors in England. As part of their web site, you
                          can submit questions that members will respond to.

                          Incidentally, in the Royal Navy there are approximately 45 different titles
                          of officers, petty officers and other rankings that could be found aboard a
                          large man-o'-war.

                          Ed Seufert, LCpl
                          1812 Royal Marines
                          1st Co/2nd Batt RM



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • brookstne@aol.com
                          45!! Oh gosh! I think I ll stick with sloops! LOL. Thanks Ed, I ll run check out the sites! Sara ... titles ... aboard a
                          Message 12 of 29 , Aug 30 8:25 PM
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                            45!! Oh gosh! I think I'll stick with sloops! LOL.
                            Thanks Ed, I'll run check out the sites!
                            Sara
                            >
                            > Incidentally, in the Royal Navy there are approximately 45 different
                            titles
                            > of officers, petty officers and other rankings that could be found
                            aboard a
                            > large man-o'-war.
                            >
                            > Ed Seufert, LCpl
                            > 1812 Royal Marines
                            > 1st Co/2nd Batt RM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Roger Marsh
                            Sloops? Why, there s a can of worms, Ma am, I do Assure you, ship- sloops, brig-sloops, snow-sloops, ketch-sloops, even cutter-sloops and
                            Message 13 of 29 , Aug 31 1:01 AM
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                              Sloops? Why, there's a can of worms, Ma'am, I do Assure you, ship-
                              sloops, brig-sloops, snow-sloops, ketch-sloops, even cutter-sloops
                              and old-ship-of-the-line-armed-"en flûte" sloops - it is all a
                              question of the rank of their commander, do you see.

                              Then there are fore-and-aft sloops, a vessel sloop-rigged with gaff
                              mainsail and 2 or more headsails, a rig which would later be
                              called "cutter", as small warships particularly used by both sides on
                              the Great Lakes......

                              Perhaps you will need to buy my book, when it is published!

                              I second the recommendation from Ed Seufert, LCpl 1812 Royal Marines
                              1st Co/2nd Batt RM, to look at the HMS site, a fine body of men,
                              Ma'am, who I had the Honour of reviewing with His Britannic Majesty G
                              III at IFOS last weekend. You do not need to register to join the
                              forum, as I have not; you will find more on sloops in a recent
                              discussion there, and it would be a fine place to post your enquiry
                              about ranks, particularly those of the British Sea-Service.

                              Ed's other recommended site is new to me; thanks for that, Ed.

                              Regards,

                              Roger Marsh

                              --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:
                              >
                              > 45!! Oh gosh! I think I'll stick with sloops! LOL.
                              > Thanks Ed, I'll run check out the sites!
                              > Sara
                              > >
                            • Roger Marsh
                              Sadly, Ma am? Well, the degree of tristesse experienced will depend, will it not? upon one s point of view. Why, Ma am. I confide that he will be treated with
                              Message 14 of 29 , Aug 31 4:41 AM
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                                Sadly, Ma'am? Well, the degree of tristesse experienced will depend,
                                will it not? upon one's point of view. Why, Ma'am. I confide that he
                                will be treated with HonoUr, as a respected vanquish'd foe, if he has
                                himself Display'd the like quality in his Conduckt.

                                Sara, there is just too much necessary detail on warrant and seamen's
                                ranks for me to cover here, and just the subject of what vessels were
                                called by their contemporaries in the age of sail – frigate, sloop,
                                tender, bark, schooner, bomb, ship, Third Rate, advice, prize &c. –
                                is enough for a fair-length book, which indeed I am in the process of
                                writing and assembling (the illustrations etc.).

                                For your purposes, you needs must buy "NELSON'S NAVY The Ships, Men
                                and Organisation 1793-1815", Brian Lavery, Conway Maritime Press,
                                1989, which contains an overview of almost all you will need as a
                                novelist (unless you wish to get as technical in shiphandling and
                                gunnery details as Patrick O'Brian or C.S. Forester), including 4
                                chapters covering officers, naval recruitment, seamen and landmen,
                                marines, then life on board etc – plus the ships, armament, fleet
                                organisation, summary of types of ships, handling, bases, fighting
                                tactics, and so on. It contains substantial sections, including ones
                                on officers and men, on the major navies of France and Spain, the
                                minor one of the USA, and shorter sections on other foreign (to the
                                British) navies.

                                Brian Lavery, of the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich (London) is
                                one of the leading authorities of the world on his subject, and also
                                eminently readable.

                                I would also most thoroughly recommend the last in the 6-part series
                                in the Chatham Publishing Pictorial Histories series, "The Naval War
                                of 1812", a magnificent and, I think, pretty well-balanced volume;
                                originally on sale @ £ 30 , or $ 45 , it is currently on sale at
                                County Bookshops as a publisher's remnant @ £ 7.99 – about $ 12.00 –
                                a great bargain, if any are still to be Hadd, Ma'am.

                                You might like to read the fictional, though factional, passages in
                                PO'B which deal with his heroes' fights against US opposition, his
                                personal score being 1-all, they being taken in "Java" under Lambert
                                (38) by Hull and "Constitution" (44) and kept as US prisoners of war,
                                and also later aboard Broke's "Shannon" in her short but extremely
                                fierce and bloody battle with "Chesapeake" under poor "Don't give up
                                the ship" Lawrence (both 38s). We still have many of "Chesapeake's "
                                timbers here in Hampshire, in a mill built in 1820 near Portsmouth,
                                from her timbers after breaking up.

                                I wish you Joy of it, Ma'am. As a fellow-writer, do feel free to
                                contact me off-list at the frigates e-dress, if the whim or need
                                should so take you.

                                As always, your Servant, Ma'am,

                                Roger Marsh

                                "If blood be the price of Admiralty
                                Then, Lord, we ha' paid in full."


                                --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:

                                > Roger--
                                >
                                (SNIP)

                                And, you're
                                > right I do need to understand the British side since, sadly, my
                                hero > IS taken.
                                >
                                > I'm sure I'll be back with more questions.
                                > Sara
                                >
                              • Roger Marsh
                                Bainbridge, of course, not Hull. Roger ... (SNIP) they being taken in Java under Lambert ... war...(SNIP)
                                Message 15 of 29 , Aug 31 4:46 AM
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                                  Bainbridge, of course, not Hull.

                                  Roger

                                  --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Roger Marsh" <frigates@m...> wrote:
                                  (SNIP) they being taken in "Java" under Lambert
                                  > (38) by Hull and "Constitution" (44) and kept as US prisoners of
                                  war...(SNIP)>
                                • J R
                                  I am not positive, but I believe a Captain commands a ship, an Admiral commands a fleet, and a Commodore is in charge of a Port. I think thats how it works
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Aug 31 6:51 AM
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                                    I am not positive, but I believe a Captain commands a ship, an Admiral
                                    commands a fleet, and a Commodore is in charge of a Port. I think thats how
                                    it works but as I said im not for sure.



                                    >From: brookstne@...
                                    >Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Questions
                                    >Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:56:54 -0000
                                    >
                                    >You're right James...
                                    >I actually know this one. Commodore was not a temporary title in the
                                    >US Navy, though I'm not precisely sure what sort of command a
                                    >Commodore had. It seems like to me, it was more of a "kick them
                                    >upstairs" move. As in Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry (of 1812 fame)
                                    >who opened trade to Japan for the US.
                                    >Oh and thanks Scott for listing "names" like "bosun's mate" that was
                                    >quite helpful.
                                    >Sara -- see? I'm not completely hopeless.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > I believe the Rank of Commodore was different in
                                    > > the U.S.Navy. In the Royal Navy it was a captain in
                                    > > command of a squadron.A tempory title.
                                    > > James Barnwell
                                    > >
                                    > > --- Scott Jeznach <scottj@c...> wrote:
                                    > > > > 1. Where can I find a list of "positions" and/or
                                    >
                                    > > > It's my understanding the Royal Navy and US Navy
                                    > > > mirrored each other when it
                                    > > > came to most naval ratings
                                    >


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                                  • Dave Hill
                                    Hi Sara, As Roger pointed out, in the Royal Navy, there were only three commissioned ranks, admiral, post captain and lieutenant. The problem in understanding
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Aug 31 8:51 AM
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                                      Hi Sara,

                                      As Roger pointed out, in the Royal Navy, there were only three
                                      commissioned ranks, admiral, post captain and lieutenant. The
                                      problem in understanding the system is that in addition to these
                                      actual ranks there were positional ranks. Anyone who commanded a
                                      vessel was referred to as the Captain, but his substantive rank
                                      could be lieutenant or, in the case of a prize, the temporary
                                      "Captain" could be a midshipman or a master's mate.

                                      A commodore was a positional rank and there were two kinds of
                                      commodores. One was a Post Captain who commanded his own ship and
                                      several other ships, the other was a Post Captain whose flagship was
                                      commanded by another Post Captain. You can think of one as a senior
                                      Captain and the other as a junior Admiral.

                                      One mistake people make when speaking of ranks is that they consider
                                      commissioned officers as one group (admiral, post captain and
                                      lieutenant) and the enlisted men as the other group and the leave out
                                      the third group entirely. Particularly in the Napoleonic Royal Navy,
                                      this third group is very important. These are the Warrant Officers.
                                      All of the "tradesmen" aboard ship (sail maker, cooper, bosun,
                                      sailing master, gunner, carpenter, etc.) held "Warrants" from the
                                      Admiralty. Like a commission, a warrant can only be taken away by
                                      promotion, death, resignation, or court martial. Before someone
                                      jumps all over me, I should point out that the gunner's warrant came
                                      from the Board of Ordinance not the Admiralty.

                                      The non-commissioned ranks i.e. petty officer, mates (gunner's mate,
                                      master's mate, bosun's mate, etc.), usually held only in that
                                      particular ship and an individual could be "busted" back to able
                                      seaman by the Captain, even if he were only a lieutenant.

                                      The U.S. Navy was, I understand, very similar but different.
                                      Commodore in the U.S. Navy was a rank not a position; but then I
                                      don't believe the U.S. Navy in 1812 had any Admirals.

                                      Someone asked who the Secretary of the Navy was during the War of
                                      1812. At the beginning the Secretary was Paul Hamilton. He was
                                      replaced, in 1813, by William Jones of Philadelphia, a former
                                      congressman, merchant, veteran of Trenton and Princeton who had
                                      served on a privateer during the Revolution.

                                      Dave.
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                                    • brookstne@aol.com
                                      Dave... I think I m beginning to untangle all this. Thank you so much! You did help clear up a bit of my confusion. Also, it was I who asked about Sec. of
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Aug 31 10:01 AM
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                                        Dave...
                                        I think I'm beginning to untangle all this. Thank you so much! You
                                        did help clear up a bit of my confusion. Also, it was I who asked
                                        about Sec. of Navy....so thanks for that too.
                                        Sara

                                        --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Dave Hill" <dave.bev@h...> wrote:
                                        > Hi Sara,
                                        >
                                        > As Roger pointed out, in the Royal Navy, there were only three
                                        > commissioned ranks, admiral, post captain and lieutenant. >
                                        > The U.S. Navy was, I understand, very similar but different.
                                        > Commodore in the U.S. Navy was a rank not a position; but then I
                                        > don't believe the U.S. Navy in 1812 had any Admirals.
                                        >
                                        > Someone asked who the Secretary of the Navy was during the War of
                                        > 1812. At the beginning the Secretary was Paul Hamilton. He was
                                        > replaced, in 1813, by William Jones of Philadelphia, a former
                                        > congressman, merchant, veteran of Trenton and Princeton who had
                                        > served on a privateer during the Revolution.
                                        >
                                        > Dave.
                                        > _______________________________________________________________
                                        > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
                                        > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                      • brookstne@aol.com
                                        Roger... I m afraid I ve haven t the best experience in mind for my hero, for what would be the point of a story without conflict, eh? Well, I don t want to
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Aug 31 10:12 AM
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                                          Roger...
                                          I'm afraid I've haven't the best experience in mind for my hero, for
                                          what would be the point of a story without conflict, eh?

                                          Well, I don't want to monopolize the list with my mundane
                                          curiosities, so I will once more fade away until such time I have
                                          more burning questions.

                                          Thank you to all who have helped me. Your hints, sites and
                                          explanations have been invaluable!

                                          Though I confess to being stuck on that marriage question still.
                                          Again...my thanks...
                                          Sara


                                          --- In WarOf1812@y..., "Roger Marsh" <frigates@m...> wrote:
                                          > Sadly, Ma'am? Well, the degree of tristesse experienced will
                                          depend, will it not? upon one's point of view.
                                        • Roger Marsh
                                          And your captain s mast - never heard of such a phrase, I must admit. Do let us know when you are about to publish. And please rest assured, Sara, that your
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Aug 31 10:34 AM
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                                            And your "captain's mast" - never heard of such a phrase, I must
                                            admit.

                                            Do let us know when you are about to publish. And please rest
                                            assured, Sara, that your "mundane curiosities" are nothing of the
                                            sort, but very welcome to those few of us on the Forum, on either
                                            side of the Pond, who have naval interests.

                                            Kind regards,

                                            Roger Marsh

                                            "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I only say
                                            they will not come by sea". (Admiral Sir John Jervis, Earl St.
                                            Vincent, 1801).

                                            --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:
                                            > (SNIP)> Well, I don't want to monopolize the list with my , so I
                                            will once more fade away until such time I have
                                            > more burning questions. (SNIP)> Though I confess to being stuck on
                                            that marriage question still.
                                            > Again...my thanks...
                                            > Sara
                                            >
                                          • HQ93rd@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 31/08/01 7:08:49 AM, schultz23@hotmail.com writes: and a Commodore is in charge of a Port. I think thats how
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Aug 31 10:53 AM
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                                              In a message dated 31/08/01 7:08:49 AM, schultz23@... writes:

                                              << I am not positive, <snip> and a Commodore is in charge of a Port. I think
                                              thats how
                                              it works but as I said im not for sure. >>

                                              Aha!
                                              Bob and John G -- we have to find a commode! That's where they keep the port!
                                              (Bob, I'll bring my own glass drinking cup.)

                                              B
                                              93rd SHRoFLHU
                                              THE Thin Red Line
                                              www.93rdhighlanders.com
                                            • Scott Jeznach
                                              ... It s used in the modern US Navy vernacular for non-US Code of Military Justice punishment (a.k.a.: Article 15 punishment in the US Army) meted out by the
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Aug 31 10:58 AM
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                                                > And your "captain's mast" - never heard of such a phrase, I must
                                                > admit.

                                                It's used in the modern US Navy vernacular for non-US Code of Military
                                                Justice punishment (a.k.a.: Article 15 punishment in the US Army) meted out
                                                by the commander (or Captain) as an alternative to a Courts-Martial.
                                                Perhaps it derives for punishment meted out aboard ship when there was no
                                                port to conduct a formal board of adjudication.

                                                Scott J.
                                                Royal Marines
                                              • J R
                                                Captains Mast is a Naval term like you said the Marines use a similar thing called Office hours, its a form of Punishment under the UCMJ, or Uniform Code of
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Aug 31 11:10 AM
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                                                  Captains Mast is a Naval term like you said the Marines use a similar thing
                                                  called Office hours, its a form of Punishment under the UCMJ, or Uniform
                                                  Code of Military Justice. Its certainly nothing you want to have to endure,
                                                  I had to watch 3 of them and all three of them went to the brig.

                                                  John Ritter
                                                  US Marine Corps





                                                  Only the Soldier is a free man for he can stare Death in the face! -Schiller
                                                  >From: "Scott Jeznach" Reply-To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: Re:
                                                  >[WarOf1812] Re: Questions Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 13:58:12 -0400
                                                  >
                                                  > > And your "captain's mast" - never heard of such a phrase, I must >
                                                  >admit.
                                                  >
                                                  >It's used in the modern US Navy vernacular for non-US Code of Military
                                                  >Justice punishment (a.k.a.: Article 15 punishment in the US Army) meted out
                                                  >by the commander (or Captain) as an alternative to a Courts-Martial.
                                                  >Perhaps it derives for punishment meted out aboard ship when there was no
                                                  >port to conduct a formal board of adjudication.
                                                  >
                                                  >Scott J. Royal Marines
                                                  >

                                                  _________________________________________________________________
                                                  Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                                                • Dour Celt
                                                  The term Captain s mast was common during the days of sail, both military and civilian. It recalled the practice of the captain standing at the mainmast meting
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Aug 31 2:54 PM
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                                                    The term Captain's mast was common during the days of sail, both
                                                    military and civilian. It recalled the practice of the captain
                                                    standing at the mainmast meting out punishment and/or praise. It was
                                                    the equivalent to what we call in modern times by the legal term
                                                    non-judicial punishment. It was also a place for recognizing
                                                    accomplishment.

                                                    Arthur McGinley
                                                    mcginley@...
                                                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    -----------------------
                                                    "Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have."
                                                    - Harry Emerson Fosdick

                                                    "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his
                                                    government."
                                                    - Edward Abbey (1927-1989) US author

                                                    "If you don't see the bottom, don't wade."
                                                    - Scottish Proverb

                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "Roger Marsh" <frigates@...>
                                                    To: <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 1:34 PM
                                                    Subject: [WarOf1812] Re: Questions


                                                    > And your "captain's mast" - never heard of such a phrase, I must
                                                    > admit.
                                                    >
                                                    > Do let us know when you are about to publish. And please rest
                                                    > assured, Sara, that your "mundane curiosities" are nothing of the
                                                    > sort, but very welcome to those few of us on the Forum, on either
                                                    > side of the Pond, who have naval interests.
                                                    >
                                                    > Kind regards,
                                                    >
                                                    > Roger Marsh
                                                    >
                                                    > "I do not say, my Lords, that the French will not come. I only say
                                                    > they will not come by sea". (Admiral Sir John Jervis, Earl St.
                                                    > Vincent, 1801).
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In WarOf1812@y..., brookstne@a... wrote:
                                                    > > (SNIP)> Well, I don't want to monopolize the list with my , so I
                                                    > will once more fade away until such time I have
                                                    > > more burning questions. (SNIP)> Though I confess to being stuck on
                                                    > that marriage question still.
                                                    > > Again...my thanks...
                                                    > > Sara
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups
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                                                    > CLICK HERE to search
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                                                    > http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/4xIolB/TM
                                                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    -~->
                                                    >
                                                    > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                                                    hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
                                                    fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                                                    >
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                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • colsjtjones2000@yahoo.ca
                                                    For anyone interested in the position/duties of a British bos n, refer to the current discussion on the HMS site mentioned before. Doug
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Aug 31 3:10 PM
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                                                      For anyone interested in the position/duties of a British bos'n,
                                                      refer to the current discussion on the HMS site mentioned before.
                                                      Doug
                                                    • Armchairadm@cs.com
                                                      Commodore is, in fact a temporary or honorary title / rank in the US Navy of the War of 1812 period. It is applied to the senior officer commanding a group of
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Aug 31 4:12 PM
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                                                        Commodore is, in fact a temporary or honorary title / rank in the US Navy of
                                                        the War of 1812 period. It is applied to the senior officer commanding a
                                                        group of warships. It is true that many US naval officers continued to fly a
                                                        Commodore's Broad Pennant on a semi-permanent basis & insisted on being
                                                        addressed as Commodore, however there is no permanent rank above that of
                                                        Capt. in the US Navy prior to 1862.

                                                        Ed Bolla



                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • Roger Marsh
                                                        Ed s message confirms Lavery s notes, in Nelson s Navy , on US naval practice. There was, of course, no possibility of admiral s rank, since the USA had no
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Sep 1, 2001
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                                                          Ed's message confirms Lavery's notes, in "Nelson's Navy", on US naval
                                                          practice.

                                                          There was, of course, no possibility of admiral's rank, since the USA
                                                          had no fleet, being a frigate and sloop navy; the firepower of the
                                                          entire US navy would not have matched that of just one medium-sized
                                                          European battlefleet at sea.

                                                          The senior frigate captains promoted to Commodore, such as
                                                          Bainbridge, Hull, Decatur, seem to have guarded the title jealously,
                                                          however, since it was the highest rank they could achieve in the US
                                                          Navy, even if in fact a temporary one. They could not become admirals
                                                          with a permanent title as could their British, French, Spanish,
                                                          Swedish, Dutch and so on, counterparts.

                                                          Regards,

                                                          Roger Marsh

                                                          --- In WarOf1812@y..., Armchairadm@c... wrote:
                                                          > Commodore is, in fact a temporary or honorary title / rank in the
                                                          US Navy of
                                                          > the War of 1812 period. It is applied to the senior officer
                                                          commanding a
                                                          > group of warships. It is true that many US naval officers
                                                          continued to fly a
                                                          > Commodore's Broad Pennant on a semi-permanent basis & insisted on
                                                          being
                                                          > addressed as Commodore, however there is no permanent rank above
                                                          that of
                                                          > Capt. in the US Navy prior to 1862.
                                                          >
                                                          > Ed Bolla
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        • Charlie McCulloh
                                                          I ve been picking at these doubled over wool strips for three months whenever I get the chance. I ve been told that the fringe on our 4th Foot (Grenadier
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Jun 19, 2006
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                                                            I've been picking at these doubled over wool strips for three months
                                                            whenever I get the chance. I've been told that the fringe on our 4th
                                                            Foot (Grenadier Company) shoulder epaulettes was made this way.

                                                            Q:
                                                            Is that correct?
                                                            Q:
                                                            Is there a simpler method than the laborious picking of single strands?
                                                            Q:
                                                            AND for God's sake, can you buy this pre-made of a correct
                                                            construction and quality?

                                                            Inquiring minds want to know.

                                                            Charlie McCulloh
                                                            4th Foot (The Kings Own)
                                                            On the Gulf Coast
                                                          • James Yaworsky
                                                            ... Terminology clarification: only officers coats have epaulettes... ranker and NCO coats have shoulder straps . Line companies have shoulder straps with
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                                              --- In WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com, "Charlie McCulloh"
                                                              <moosenmoo35244@...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > I've been picking at these doubled over wool strips for three months
                                                              > whenever I get the chance. I've been told that the fringe on our 4th
                                                              > Foot (Grenadier Company) shoulder epaulettes was made this way.
                                                              >
                                                              > Q:
                                                              > Is that correct?
                                                              > Q:
                                                              > Is there a simpler method than the laborious picking of single strands?
                                                              > Q:
                                                              > AND for God's sake, can you buy this pre-made of a correct
                                                              > construction and quality?
                                                              >
                                                              > Inquiring minds want to know.
                                                              >
                                                              > Charlie McCulloh
                                                              > 4th Foot (The Kings Own)
                                                              > On the Gulf Coast
                                                              >

                                                              Terminology clarification: only officers' coats have epaulettes...
                                                              ranker and NCO coats have "shoulder straps".

                                                              Line companies have shoulder straps with rather large tufts along
                                                              their base (where the shoulder strap is sewn in to the top of the arm
                                                              seam).

                                                              Grenadier and Light Company coats generally don't have similar tufts.

                                                              They have, instead, "wings", which are small pieces of fabric sewn in
                                                              to the top of the arm seam that sort of hang down a few inches over
                                                              the sleeve. These "wings" are edged in regimental lace, with 6
                                                              "darts" of regimental lace spaced evenly but at an angle across their
                                                              width from the seam to the bottom edge of the wing (the part closest
                                                              to the ground when you wear the coat).

                                                              Some wings have, in addition to regimental lace edging their bottom, a
                                                              "fringe" of strands of wool. This strand seems to vary in its size
                                                              from unit to unit - in some cases, it seems almost as dense as the
                                                              line company shoulder tuft, in other cases, it looks rather minimal.

                                                              The logical person(s) to help out on this inquiry (assuming I have
                                                              understood and laid it out properly above) would be members of
                                                              grenadier companies (and/or maybe light companies) who have some
                                                              experience of putting tuft edging on their wings. How about it, guys?
                                                              What's the story? This inquiring mind also wants to know.


                                                              Jim Yaworsky
                                                              Line Company, 41st - "No expert in grenadier or light company wing
                                                              fringes."
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