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Re: [WarOf1812] The Letter "J" in the alphabet

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  • Raymond Hobbs
    Scott: I have a copy of a map drawn in 1791 of the Head of the Lake area (Hamilton/Burlington). It is by Augustus Jones, Deputy Surveyor General of Upper
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 4, 2001
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      Scott:
      I have a copy of a map drawn in 1791 of the 'Head of the Lake' area (Hamilton/Burlington). It is by Augustus Jones, Deputy Surveyor General of Upper Canada, appointed
      by Simcoe. The 'J' is definitiely used in the handwriting. I also have copies of original documents of our period from the National Archives of Canada - 'Js' in
      abundance, and distinct from the 'I'. Although the handwritten I and J are formed with the same strokes of the pen, the J is much longer and drops below the line.
      Example where they are used in the same sentence - 'I have the honor to be, Sir, your most obedient and humble servant, Joseph Tallan, Officer Commanding, Sandwich.'
      Dated 1813. Several are like this.
      Ray Hobbs
      1/41st

      Scott Jeznach wrote:

      > Got a weird question for the group.
      >
      > In the mid to late 18th century, the letter "J" was not used in the English
      > alphabet. The letter "I" was used for both "I" and "J."
      >
      > Was the letter "J" in use by our period (ie: the early 19th Century)?
      >
      > Scott J.
      > Royal Marines
      >
      > The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
    • BritcomHMP@aol.com
      In a message dated 6/4/2001 3:18:33 PM Central Daylight Time, scottj@carr.org writes:
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 4, 2001
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        In a message dated 6/4/2001 3:18:33 PM Central Daylight Time, scottj@...
        writes:

        << In the mid to late 18th century, the letter "J" was not used in the English
        alphabet. The letter "I" was used for both "I" and "J.">>

        Actually it is in Latin that there is no "J"; in English in anything like its
        modern form "J" is most certainly used

        <<Was the letter "J" in use by our period (ie: the early 19th Century)? >>

        Absolutely. The earliest book in my collection is 1786, this has the usual
        figure that looks like 'f' for a small 'S' but it has both 'i' and 'j'.

        Cheers

        Tim
      • spikeyj@crosslink.net
        ... The letter J/j (as something separate from I/i) was introduced in the 16th century. It took a while for the usage to become standardized (just like so many
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 4, 2001
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          On Mon, 4 Jun 2001, Scott Jeznach wrote:

          > In the mid to late 18th century, the letter "J" was not used in the English
          > alphabet. The letter "I" was used for both "I" and "J."
          >
          > Was the letter "J" in use by our period (ie: the early 19th Century)?

          The letter J/j (as something separate from I/i) was introduced in the
          16th century. It took a while for the usage to become standardized
          (just like so many other elements of spelling during the early
          centuries of printing), so in the 17th and maybe even conceivably
          early 18th century there would still be some confusion.

          By the 1812 time period the usage was pretty much standardized,
          although I'm sure misleading typefaces (that minimize the difference
          between i and j) could give one the impression that they were still
          interchangeable.

          Spike Y Jones
        • HQ93rd@aol.com
          In a message dated 4/06/01 2:06:38 PM, BritcomHMP@aol.com writes:
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 4, 2001
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            In a message dated 4/06/01 2:06:38 PM, BritcomHMP@... writes:

            << In a message dated 6/4/2001 3:18:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
            scottj@...
            writes:

            << In the mid to late 18th century, the letter "J" was not used in the English
            alphabet. The letter "I" was used for both "I" and "J.">>

            Actually it is in Latin that there is no "J"; in English in anything like its
            modern form "J" is most certainly used

            <<Was the letter "J" in use by our period (ie: the early 19th Century)? >>

            Absolutely. The earliest book in my collection is 1786, this has the usual
            figure that looks like 'f' for a small 'S' but it has both 'i' and 'j'.
            >>

            And don't forget that little ol' King James Bible book thingy...

            (And I've never seen any of my ancestors listed as "Iennings"....)


            B
            93rd SHRoFLHU
            THE Thin Red Line
            www.93rdhighlanders.com
          • dancingbobd@webtv.net
            Hi everyone, I own an butcher knife made in Shefield in the period 1800-1840 by John Wilson Co. It is marked I WILSON. He made knives from the 3rd qtr of the
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 4, 2001
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              Hi everyone,

              I own an butcher knife made in Shefield in the period 1800-1840 by John
              Wilson Co. It is marked I WILSON. He made knives from the 3rd qtr of
              the 18th Cen. well into the 20th Cen. I imagine that he did not want to
              change his "brand" name which was known for high quality. Prior to 1800
              Wilson marked his knives with a touch mark of a pepper corn and a
              diamond. The name was added at the start of the 19th Cen. The
              documentation for this came from the Museum of the Fur Trade Quarterly.

              I also have a 1763 set of Engineer manuals published in Britain which
              uses j as we would today. Things were not as uniform as they are today
              in usage and spelling.

              Regards,

              Bob Dorian
              US Engineers
            • Angela Gottfred
              There is definitely _something_ odd about the way i & j were viewed in the early 19C. My c.1806 edition of Johnson s dictionary considers i and j to be
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 5, 2001
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                There is definitely _something_ odd about the way "i" & "j" were viewed in
                the early 19C. My c.1806 edition of Johnson's dictionary considers 'i' and
                'j' to be the same letter, alphabetizing 'jay' and 'jazel' before 'ibis'.
                'Ibis' to 'idyl' are followed by 'jealous' to 'jezebel'. 'Jezebel' is
                followed by 'if' and so on. I wonder if this is some academic affectation
                that comes from the fact that there is no 'j' in Latin.

                Your humble & obedient servant,
                Angela Gottfred
              • BritcomHMP@aol.com
                In a message dated 6/5/2001 9:19:13 AM Central Daylight Time, agottfre@telusplanet.net writes:
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 5, 2001
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                  In a message dated 6/5/2001 9:19:13 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  agottfre@... writes:

                  << I wonder if this is some academic affectation
                  that comes from the fact that there is no 'j' in Latin. >>

                  I think you could well be right Angela, that is was considered the same
                  letter even though it is written differently and pronounced differently!
                  Of course this affectation does not affect the usage in everyday written
                  language one jot.

                  Cheers

                  Tim
                • James Aldrich
                  ... Considering earlier efforts to impose Latin grammar on English, I suspect you are not far from the truth of the matter. JSA -- Green Bay Lacrosse-- Play
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 5, 2001
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                    Angela Gottfred wrote:

                    > I wonder if this is some academic affectation
                    > that comes from the fact that there is no 'j' in Latin.

                    Considering earlier efforts to impose Latin grammar on English, I suspect you are not far from the truth of the matter.

                    JSA

                    --
                    Green Bay Lacrosse-- Play hard; play often.
                  • Craig Williams
                    Scott I am doing the film Salem Witch Trials right now, which occurred in 1692 and they definitely used the letter J . one of the poor bastards hung was
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 12, 2001
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                      Scott
                      I am doing the film "Salem Witch Trials" right now, which occurred in 1692
                      and they definitely used the letter "J". one of the poor bastards hung was
                      John Proctor.

                      Craig
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Scott Jeznach <scottj@...>
                      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com <WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:55 PM
                      Subject: [WarOf1812] The Letter "J" in the alphabet


                      >Got a weird question for the group.
                      >
                      >In the mid to late 18th century, the letter "J" was not used in the English
                      >alphabet. The letter "I" was used for both "I" and "J."
                      >
                      >Was the letter "J" in use by our period (ie: the early 19th Century)?
                      >
                      >Scott J.
                      >Royal Marines
                      >
                      >
                      >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of hundreds of
                      square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the fate of THOUSANDS of
                      square miles...
                      >
                      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                    • Roger Marsh
                      Ah - it was Scott Jeznach, then. Kindly elucidate, Scott. Regards, Roger Marsh ... ? ... hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jun 13, 2001
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                        Ah - it was Scott Jeznach, then. Kindly elucidate, Scott.

                        Regards,

                        Roger Marsh

                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Scott Jeznach <scottj@c...>
                        > Subject: [WarOf1812] The Letter "J" in the alphabet
                        >
                        <SNIP>?

                        > >The War of 1812: In Europe, thousands fought over the fate of
                        hundreds of square miles: in North America, hundreds determined the
                        fate of THOUSANDS of square miles...
                        > >
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