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34412Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

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  • HQ93rd@aol.com
    Dec 3, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      very interesting, but how do we know your who you say you are?


      Right back at ya.



      Lt Col I yam what I yam I'm Popeye the Sailor B


      93rd SHRoFLHU
      THE Thin Red Line
      www.93rdhighlanders.com
      www.myspace.com/93rdhighlanders






      -----Original Message-----
      From: roy winders <rangerroy50@...>
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 5:04 pm
      Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler










      very interesting, but how do we know your who you say you are?


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: "HQ93rd@..." <HQ93rd@...>
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 12:54:56 PM
      Subject: Re: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler


      http://curezone. com/forums/ troll.asp
      " An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the
      Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.
      Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their
      bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real
      people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of
      digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain
      they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their
      'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net
      allows trolls to flourish.
      Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You
      cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion;
      you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some
      reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social
      responsibility.
      Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I
      can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere
      words.

      Why Does it Matter?

      Some people — particularly those who have been online for years — are not upset
      by trolls and consider them an inevitable hazard of using the net. As the saying
      goes, "You can't have a picnic without ants."
      It would be nice if everybody was so easy-going, but the sad fact is that
      trolls do discourage people. Established posters may leave a message board
      because of the arguments that trolls ignite, and lurkers (people who read but do
      not post) may decide that they do not want to expose themselves to abuse and
      thus never get involved.
      Another problem is that the negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over
      into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading
      an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison
      previously friendly interactions between long-time users.
      Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by
      a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.
      The Internet is a wonderful resource which is breaking down barriers and
      stripping away prejudice. Trolls threaten our continued enjoyment of this
      beautiful forum for ideas.

      What Can be Done about Trolls?

      When you suspect that somebody is a troll, you might try responding with a
      polite, mild message to see if it's just somebody in a bad mood. Internet users
      sometimes let their passions get away from them when seated safely behind their
      keyboard. If you ignore their bluster and respond in a pleasant manner, they
      usually calm down.
      However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being
      unpleasant, the only effective position is summed up as follows:
      The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others
      not to respond to trolls.
      When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins.
      When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is
      being ignored.

      What Not to Do

      As already stated, it is futile to try to "cure" a troll of his obsession. But
      perhaps you simply cannot bear the hostile environment that the troll is
      creating and want to go away for a while.
      If you do that, then for the sake of the others on the system, please do not
      post a dramatic "Goodbye!" message. This convinces the troll that he is winning
      the battle. There is, perhaps, no message you can write on a message system that
      is as damaging as an announcement that you are leaving because of the hostility
      that the troll has kindled.
      If you feel you must say something, a discreet message to the system operator
      (and some of the others users, if you have their email addresses) is the best
      course of action. Incidentally, if you are writing the letter in an agitated
      state, it is a good idea to wait an hour and then give it one last review before
      you actually send it. That might spare you the pain of saying things that you
      don't really mean to people you like.

      Impersonation

      One technique used by trolls to generate chaos is to pretend to be a well-liked
      person. On some systems there is nothing to prevent somebody from signing your
      name to a distasteful message. On other systems the troll may have to be a bit
      more wiley, perhaps by replacing one character with another. Here are some
      examples of various spoofing gimmicks that could be used against a person named
      Brenda Q. O'Really:
      Brenda Q. O"Really Brenda Q. 0'Really Brenda Q O'Really
      Brenda Q. O'Rea11y Bredna Q. O'Really 8renda Q. O'Really
      Note: "Brenda Q. O'Really" is a made-up name used to illustrate spoofing and is
      not intended to refer to a particular person.

      If you react with anger, the troll wins. So if you see a message impersonating
      you on a message board, simply write a follow-up reply entitled "That Wasn't Me"
      and type only this:
      I did not write that message; it is a fake.
      Of course, sometimes you will find that people who know you well have already
      identified the message as a fake and have tagged it as such. After all, one of
      the troll's goals is to make you look bad. If you have a good reputation, people
      will be tipped off if a message that you apparently wrote is completely out of
      character.
      Trolls have been known to become so irritated at having their spoofs identified
      that they have learned to write in another person's style. They may end up
      writing an intelligent message that is indistinguishable from your own golden
      words. If that happens, you can always just let the post stand and take credit
      for it!
      Trolls will also sometimes write a "That Wasn't Me" message after a genuine
      one, attempting to elicit a denial. There really is no reason to give him what
      he wants, since a "That Wasn't Me" warning merely reminds people to be
      skeptical. That is to say, it is of no real consequence if somebody isn't sure
      that you wrote a normal message, since in the long run it is the ideas that are
      important.

      The Webmaster's Challenge

      When trolls are ignored they step up their attacks, desperately seeking the
      attention they crave. Their messages become more and more foul, and they post
      ever more of them. Alternatively, they may protest that their right to free
      speech is being curtailed — more on this later.
      The moderator of a message board may not be able to delete a troll's messages
      right away, but their job is made much harder if they also have to read numerous
      replies to trolls. They are also forced to decide whether or not to delete posts
      from well-meaning folks which have the unintended effect of encouraging the
      troll.
      Some webmasters have to endure conscientious users telling them that they are
      "acting like dictators" and should never delete a single message. These people
      may be misinformed: they may have arrived at their opinion about a troll based
      on the messages they see, never realizing that the webmaster has already deleted
      his most horrific material. Please remember that a troll does have an
      alternative if he has something of value to say: there are services on the net
      that provide messaging systems free of charge. So the troll can set up his own
      message board, where he can make his own decisions about the kind of content he
      will tolerate.
      Just how much can we expect of a webmaster when it comes to preserving the
      principles of free speech? Some trolls find sport in determining what the
      breaking point is for a particular message board operator. They might post a
      dozen messages, each of which contains 400 lines of the letter "J". That is a
      form of expression, to be sure, but would you consider it your duty to play host
      to such a person?
      Perhaps the most difficult challenge for a webmaster is deciding whether to
      take steps against a troll that a few people find entertaining. Some trolls do
      have a creative spark and have chosen to squander it on being disruptive. There
      is a certain perverse pleasure in watching some of them. Ultimately, though, the
      webmaster has to decide if the troll actually cares about putting on a good show
      for the regular participants, or is simply playing to an audience of one —
      himself.

      What about Free Speech?

      When trolls find that their efforts are being successfully resisted, they often
      complain that their right to free speech is being infringed. Let us examine that
      claim.
      While most people on the Internet are ardent defenders of free speech, it is
      not an absolute right; there are practical limitations. For example, you may not
      scream out "Fire!" in a crowded theatre, and you may not make jokes about bombs
      while waiting to board an airplane. We accept these limitations because we
      recognize that they serve a greater good.
      Another useful example is the control of the radio frequency spectrum. You
      might wish to set up a powerful radio station to broadcast your ideas, but you
      cannot do so without applying for a license. Again, this is a practical
      limitation: if everybody broadcasted without restriction, the repercussions
      would be annoying at best and life-threatening at worst.
      The radio example is helpful for another reason: with countless people having a
      legitimate need to use radio communications, it is important to ensure that
      nobody is 'monopolizing the channel'. There are only so many clear channels
      available in each frequency band and these must be shared.
      When a troll attacks a message board, he generally posts a lot of messages.
      Even if his messages are not particularly inflammatory, they can be so numerous
      that they drown out the regular conversations (this is known as 'flooding').
      Needless to say, no one person's opinions can be allowed to monopolize a
      channel.
      The ultimate response to the 'free speech' argument is this: while we may have
      the right to say more or less whatever we want, we do not have the right to say
      it wherever we want. You may feel strongly about the fact that your neighbour
      has not mowed his lawn for two months, but you do not have the right to berate
      him in his own living room. Similarly, if a webmaster tells a troll that he is
      not welcome, the troll has no "right" to remain. This is particularly true on
      the numerous free communications services offered on the net. (On pay systems,
      the troll might be justified in asking for a refund.)

      Why Do They Do It?

      Affirmation.
      Regular net users know how delightful it is when somebody responds to something
      they have written. It is a meeting of the minds, which is an intellectual
      thrill, but it is also an acknowledgement of one's value — and that can be a
      very satisfying emotional reward.
      Trolls crave attention, and they care not whether it is positive or negative.
      They see the Internet as a mirror into which they can gaze in narcissistic
      rapture.
      If you want a deeper analysis than that, perhaps a psychologist can shed some
      additional light on the matter.

      Conclusion

      Next time you are on a message board and you see a post by somebody whom you
      think is a troll, and you feel you must reply, simply write a follow-up message
      entitled "Troll Alert" and type only this:
      The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others
      not to respond to trolls.
      By posting such a message, you let the troll know that you know what he is, and
      that you are not going to get dragged into his twisted little hobby.
      The Internet is a splendidly haphazard collection of both serious and silly
      material. Because it is so free, there are bound to be problems. I think that we
      can best enjoy it if we deal with everything that happens online with a wry grin
      and a ready shrug."

      93rd SHRoFLHU
      THE Thin Red Line
      www.93rdhighlanders .com

      -----Original Message-----
      From: David Sigler <dasigler@earthlink. net>
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
      Sent: Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:35 pm
      Subject: RE: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

      LOL......... ..I'm not the one taking this seriously and yet I am the one
      being censored for having an opinion? I think some of you need to reread the
      discussion and see who was insulting who. I will assume that Sir. Tim is the
      real moderator in this group and leave it at that as the reason for my leaving;
      By the way, I never said Wellington wasn't good, just not as great as some would

      believe. I'll leave this group on my own accord; laughing all the way at the
      childish behavior of it all..... and at the ego of some....LOL!

      david a sigler

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Larry Lozon
      To: WarOf1812@yahoogrou ps.com
      Sent: 11/22/2007 1:49:41 PM
      Subject: [War Of 1812] Mr. Sigler

      Mr. Sigler

      Sir, May I suggest you search the archives of this Yahoo Group, there
      you will find a lot of information regarding the War of 1812

      Then visit your local book store and read up on the War.

      If you Google the War of 1812 you will have a treasure trove of super
      books to read.

      Instead of asking for help with your book list . . . do some of the
      ground work.

      The war of 1812 was won by no one,
      the borders went back to where they were.
      Everything went back to the way it was before the war

      There was a loser and that was the Natives (Indians) check the
      archives to find out why . . .

      Detroit was captured by Crown Forces (British, Canadian, Militias,
      Allies)
      New Orleans was won by the USA Forces
      Both sides had great leaders

      We have to get over it!

      If would have . . . could have . . . should have . . .
      never happened.
      Read the accounts of both USA and Crown and make a decision

      To jump into a conversation . . . as a battle . . .
      without ammunition . . .
      your own words, "my lack of knowing"
      is very dangerous and it only proves one thing . . . *

      As one human being to another . . . research the War of 1812 before
      you criticize any of its participants and then you can back up your
      statements.

      "I do not see your hero as the giant of military leadership"

      Sir, Wellington, Napoleon, Hitler, Churchill, Scott, Harrison,
      Jackson were all great military leaders, some more than others but
      you cannot take their military leadership away from them . . .
      again it only proves one thing . . . *

      You have been asked by Mr. Fournier, Moderator of this Yahoo Group to
      quit this thread,
      I, Larry Lozon, Moderator, also ask you to quit this thread.
      The only other to do so will be Mr. Yaworsky, Group Owner,
      and with that you risk being denied access to this group.

      Without prejudice
      Larry Lozon

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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      War of 1812 Living History:
      A wide-ranging information exchange
      for all participants and supporters


      Unit Contact information for North America:
      Crown Forces Unit Listing:
      http://1812crownforces.tripod.com
      American Forces Unit Listing
      http://usforces1812.tripod.com

      WAR OF 1812 EVENTS LIST:
      http://royal.scots.tripod.com/warof1812eventslist
      Yahoo! Groups Links









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