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WOSSNAME -- MARCH 2009 -- PART 4 OF 6

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  • Not A Granny
    WOSSNAME -- MARCH 2009 -- PART 4 OF 6 (continued) ... oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ====Part 4 -- MORE BU DISCUSSION 27) BU NEWSROUND,
    Message 1 of 1 , Mar 23, 2009
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      WOSSNAME -- MARCH 2009 -- PART 4 OF 6 (continued)
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      oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

      ====Part 4 -- MORE BU DISCUSSION

      27) BU NEWSROUND, CONTINUED


      oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

      27) BU DISCUSSION: BRING ON THE BAD GUYS

      Libwolf:
      I was talking to a few people at Nullus Anxietas (Aus DW Con) and we
      realised that Terry kills his Bad Guys in quite 'no way they're
      coming back' methods. I'm not talking about characters like Rust -
      he's not evil, he's just a Aristocrat of the worst kind.

      Lord Hong - Explosion
      The Duchess - Eaten by the forest
      Cohen & The Silver Horde (he was going to kill all life on the disc
      = bad guy) - Explosion
      Reacher Gilt - Long Last Step (presumably)
      Wolf - Explosion

      Any comments?

      Mrs Cake:
      Pterry doesn't need leftovers, he cooks 'em fresh every time! Slight
      diversion -- it surprises me that the Long Step is still there, from
      the time of the dragon I assume. Of course, Vetinari never gets rid
      of anything he inherited in office, but I would have thought that a)
      the damage would have seriously destabilized that part of the
      building, and b) such a door would have a very limited number of
      uses, even in a narrative context. Though the sweepers might have
      found it handy. Or maybe he keeps it to remind him of the dangers of
      dragons -- or to remind others? And I would bet good money that if
      HE went through that door, he would have ready prepared a method of
      doing so nonfatally.

      Martinus:
      "Let me just take this large sheet from my desk drawer, the one with
      the strings hanging from it."

      Lu-Pi:
      I dunno about sweepers. Would _you_ have the brazen pair to skimp on
      cleaning up around Vetinari? I know _I_ wouldn't.

      Libwolf:
      The Long Step isn't there the next time Moist visits in Making
      Money: "Moist turned to Drumknott. 'May I borrow your pencil, Mr
      Drumknott? Thank you.' He walked over to the door and opened it.
      Then he cupped one hand to his ear, theatrically, and dropped the
      pencil. 'Let's see how deeĀ—' Clik! The pencil bounced and rolled
      on some quite solid-looking floorboards. Moist picked it up and
      stared at it, and then walked slowly back to his chair. 'Didn't
      there use to be a deep pit full of spikes down there?' he said.

      "'I can't imagine why you would think that,' said Lord Vetinari."

      Martinus:
      I'm sure Vetinari has a portable deep pit full of spikes that can be
      installed where needed at a moment's notice. Or even a portable
      floor that can be removed where no longer needed on a similar
      timescale.

      Steven:
      "I'm not talking about characters like Rust - he's not evil, he's
      just a Aristocrat of the worst kind."

      Which /is/ evil. He's just not the antagonist of any story -- the
      closest he comes to are Jingo and Night Watch, where he is a minor
      obstacle in Vimes' way.

      "Lord Hong - Explosion. The Duchess - Eaten by the forest."

      I don't believe we actually /saw/ her eaten though. Her body has
      never been found (not canonically at least), she might have fought
      her way out, and even if she was killed, well, she's just the sort
      of person who could come back as a zombie for revenge.

      "Cohen & The Silver Horde - Explosion"

      Cohen and the Horde as bad guys??? Did you read a different "The
      Last Hero" to me? The bad guys in that book were the Gods, not
      Cohen. Yes, he might have /accidentally/ exterminated all life on
      the Disc, but his motives were pure (blowing up the Disc's Gods
      counts as community service). And he saved the day. Cohen is not a
      lawful Good Guy, he's an agent of chaos, and nobody says he's
      /nice/, so kidnapping bards and a certain amount of raping and
      pillaging comes with the territory, although not so much of the
      raping at his age. But he's still the Hero, and he acts heroically
      at the end, when it counts.

      (I think we can conclude from PTerry's treatment of Cohen that he
      has a rather mixed view of the Hero.)

      And considering that immediately after Cohen and the Horde were
      blown up, they stole the Valkyries' horses, loudly proclaimed that
      they weren't dead, flew off and set free the First Hero, Mazda, I
      don't exactly see why you say they've been killed in a way that
      prevents them coming back. Cohen may never be written in another
      story, but that's because PTerry has moved on.

      "Reacher Gilt - Long Last Step (presumably). Wolf - Explosion."

      PTerry rarely writes the sort of story where the same characters go
      up against each other over and over again. The closest he has is
      the Queen of Elves and the Auditors of Reality, but they're not the
      sort of characters that he can kill off -- the Auditors simply
      /are/, in the context of the Discworld you can no more get rid of
      them than we can get rid of space. Kill the Queen, and presumably
      she has an heir, and possibly the King may be a little...peeved.
      So it's probably better that Granny didn't kill the Queen. Besides,
      what would be the point, how would she know she lost if she was
      dead?

      But even then, note that Granny has fought the Queen once, the
      Wizards have fought her (in a manner of speaking) once, and Tiffany
      fought her once. PTerry doesn't do sequels as such: he doesn't
      write the same story twice.

      Other villains who haven't been killed off in the books:
      * the Magpyrs
      * most of the various people who have plotted against Vetinari over
      the years, in various books (including Lord de Worde)
      * Coin (not so much a villain himself, but awfully dangerous)
      * the Things From The Dungeon Dimensions
      * Bel-Shamharoth
      * the political leaderships of Borogravia and Klatch
      * the Deep Downer dwarfs
      * Dragon King of Arms
      * Lily Weatherwax

      "The Long Step isn't there the next time Moist visits..."

      Surely you've heard of trap doors? When the Patrician wants the Long
      Step, a door in the floor opens up and its there, and when he
      doesn't, it's perfectly safe. He probably has the finest Dwarf
      engineers keep it maintained.

      Libwolf:
      Almost all the villians are neutralised in one way or another.

      The Magpyrs are no longer a threat - the Count is back.
      Most of the minor plotters against Vetinari were being puppet
      mastered by Vetinari anyway - sure a Free Press (The Truth) may
      take a little power away from Vetinari, but it takes power away
      from all the big players.
      Coin left.
      Dungeon Dimensions - sock full of sand
      Bel left in a hurry and closed the doorway behind it.
      The Klatchian prince got overthrown and probably met up with 71 Hour
      Ahmed.
      The Borogravian situation is fixed (for now) - he did send the Duke
      of Ankh to fix it.
      Deep Downer Dwarves were resolved with 'THAT'S NOT MY MOO COW!' and
      the Low King regaining full control.
      Dragon King of Arms ends the novel in the Palace Dungeons - and with
      his power base destroyed.

      Vera:
      Knowing Dragon King - and Vetinari's liking for the traditional A-M
      infrastructure to stay in one piece (relatively speaking) - I doubt
      he was there for long. Possibly a verbal slap and a Look from his
      lordship. And for all that Vimes' burning of the records was a
      dramatic gesture, surely Dragon King, after so very long in the
      job, would at least have copies of everything stowed away somewhere
      else.

      BTW, seeing as how alt-books-pratchett seems to be dead in the water
      (and alt.fan.pratchett is beneath mentioning), it's amusing and
      rather sweet to see actual Discworld discussion taking place on
      ozdw ~grins~

      Steven:
      "Almost all the villians are neutralised in one way or another."

      Well, of course they are, in /some/ sense, otherwise the story
      wouldn't be over. But you specifically mentioned that PTerry killed
      off his villains so they couldn't come back. That's true for some
      of them (e.g. Teatime, Lord Hong) but not so much for the others. A
      less imaginative author could (e.g.) have the Magpyrs gang up on
      the old Count and stake him, then go looking for Granny Weatherwax
      for revenge. Or Lily Weatherwax could find her way out of the
      mirrors. (Actually, I'd pay to read that last one.)

      "Most of the minor plotters against Vetinari were being puppet
      mastered by Vetinari anyway..."

      I don't think Vetinari engineered to have himself poisoned with
      arsenic, or shot, or hit on the head and framed for robbery and
      attempted murder. I'm sure once events were in motion, Vetinari was
      very good at manipulating events to his benefit, but he's not
      immune to having holes poked in him by small lead slugs, and he now
      walks with a limp.

      "Coin left."

      And could come back. At least, in a lesser writer, he could come
      back -- I'd be very surprised if PTerry had anything more to say
      about him.

      "Dungeon Dimensions - sock full of sand."

      PTerry has said that he's run out of things to say about the Dungeon
      Dimensions. It's a pastiche and parody of fantasy monsters, but not
      really interesting.

      "Deep Downer Dwarves were resolved with 'THAT'S NOT MY MOO COW!' and
      the Low King regaining full control."

      I think you have misunderstood Dwarf politics. The Low King already
      had full control, of the Dwarfs who acknowledge his authority. The
      Deep Downers don't, and there's no reason to believe that the ones
      who went to Ankh-Morpork are /all/ the Deep Downers. The analogy
      with Roundworld politics isn't exact, but I look at it kinda like
      this...in theory all Islamic nations are supposed to merge under
      the control of the Caliph. The Low King is like the Caliph. If
      you've read your history, you'll know that there have been plenty
      of historical periods where the supposedly subordinate kings have
      told the Caliph "I've got a bigger army than you", figuratively
      speaking.

      To put it another way...remember in The Fifth Elephant when the Low
      King's political opponent went along with the charade that the
      replica Scone of Stone was the original? The Low King made a
      comment about Albrecht Albrechtson disagreeing about who should
      captain the boat, not sink it. I suspect that, if Round World
      politics is any guide, there are plenty of Deep Downers who would
      be prepared to sink the boat, and remember that as crusty and
      conservative as Albrechtson is, he's not a Deep Downer. Even he is
      not endarkened enough for their liking.

      "Dragon King of Arms ends the novel in the Palace Dungeons..."

      He's a rich, powerful, ancient vampire with lots of friends, or at
      least minions. Vetinari will be watching him now, and as Vimes
      fantasied, the time might come that a very, very skillful assassin
      would be sent out on a mission with a wooden stake and a bottle of
      holy water. But if that has happened, we haven't seen it, so it
      isn't canon, and the possibility of him making trouble is still
      there.

      New Bruce:
      The Pratchetts are a game-playing family -- perhaps if he doesn't
      kill "the boss" Pterry doesn't feel he has properly finished the
      book. The [L-space] "death lists" are a handy (if incomplete)
      reference for who got 'done' and how.

      http://www.us.lspace.org/books/deathlists/index.html

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      End of Part 4, continued on part 5 of 6.
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      Copyright (c) 2009 by Klatchian Foreign Legion
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