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  • rhysh73
    Hi I m new to this list and the SCA. I have done various types of needlework in the past most predominately Counted cross-stitch. I would like to try my hand
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 19, 2005
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      Hi I'm new to this list and the SCA. I have done various types of
      needlework in the past most predominately Counted cross-stitch. I
      would like to try my hand at a counted Cross-stitch from the SCA time
      period but I don't know where to start. Does anyone have any
      suggestions I would appreciate them. I can't wait to view your work
      at Twelfth night. I am finding myself being sucked into the SCA very
      quickly! :)

      Katerina
    • Joan Jurancich
      ... Well, you need to be more specific about time period and location. Styles varied a great deal both in time and space. Depending upon what time period and
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 19, 2005
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        At 01:04 PM 12/19/2005, you wrote:
        >Hi I'm new to this list and the SCA. I have done various types of
        >needlework in the past most predominately Counted cross-stitch. I
        >would like to try my hand at a counted Cross-stitch from the SCA time
        >period but I don't know where to start. Does anyone have any
        >suggestions I would appreciate them. I can't wait to view your work
        >at Twelfth night. I am finding myself being sucked into the SCA very
        >quickly! :)
        >
        >Katerina
        >
        >----------

        Well, you need to be more specific about time period and
        location. Styles varied a great deal both in time and
        space. Depending upon what time period and what area you choose,
        counted cross stitch may not be appropriate; that just gives you the
        excuse to learn more techniques. :-)


        Joan Jurancich
        joanmj@...

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Thyri de Peel
        You might try the long-armed cross pincushion project from the Needleworkers Guild. I m a cross-stitcher too, and did that project - very interesting! From
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 20, 2005
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          You might try the long-armed cross pincushion project from the
          Needleworkers Guild. I'm a cross-stitcher too, and did that project -
          very interesting!

          From what I've seen (and I am _not_ a researcher, this is
          data-picked-up-in-passing), counted cross stitch the way we do it
          today - with many colors making a picture - was rare to non-existent
          in period. Cross stitch covering the entire surface, in one color or
          many, appeared; the one-color samplers you sometimes see are about the
          closest modern xstitch gets to that. Assisi work (cross stitch
          everywhere except where you let the cloth show through to make a
          picture) also appears in period.

          I'm using 'period' here the way you (I think) were using it - anything
          in the SCA period (pre-1600). The Guild members (and Heralds, and...)
          will be very happy to help you narrow down your period of interest if
          you want to have a real historical-type persona - bleah, that's badly
          phrased. Put it this way - some people just want to be 'period',
          others want to be from a particular time and place. And every
          variation between... So if you (now or a bit later) have a particular
          period you want to belong to, the Guild members (those researcher-type
          people!) will be glad to help you work out what you might have been
          doing in that period - what's 'period' for your particular-time
          persona. But as a start, and an interesting segue from modern counted
          cross, try the long-armed cross.

          And by the way - welcome to the SCA!

          Monday, December 19, 2005, 1:04:50 PM, rhysh73 wrote:

          r> Hi I'm new to this list and the SCA.  I have done various types of
          r> needlework in the past most predominately Counted cross-stitch.  I
          r> would like to try my hand at a counted Cross-stitch from the SCA time
          r> period but I don't know where to start. Does anyone have any
          r> suggestions I would appreciate them.  I can't wait to view your work
          r> at Twelfth night.  I am finding myself being sucked into the SCA very
          r> quickly! :)
          r>
          r> Katerina
          r>
          r>
          r>
          r>
          r>
          r>
          r>
          r>

          r>      ==================(´´) --__--__--__--__--__
          r>
          r> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your e-mail address, or change
          r> your options on the [WKneedle] list, go to
          r> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups and follow the directions. If you
          r> have problems doing this, please e-mail the Guild Deputy, Christian
          r> de Holacombe, at <claning@...>. The WK Needleworkers Guild
          r> Website is at http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle.
          r>
          r>      ==================(´´) --__--__--__--__--__
          r>
          r>

          r>
          r>
          r>

          r> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          r>
          r>
          r>  Visit your group "WKneedle" on the web.
          r>    To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          r>  WKneedle-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          r>    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          r>
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          r>
          r>
          r>

          ---
          Thyri de Peel
          Barony of Westermark
          Principality of the Mists
          West Kingdom
          I used to have a Heisenbergmobile, but every time I looked at the speedometer, I got lost.
          jjmcgaffey@...
        • Susan B. Farmer
          ... Polychrome cross-stitch that makes a picture was done in our period -- look at the slips on the Oxburgh Hangings. Now, as to whether those are *counted*
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 20, 2005
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            Quoting rhysh73 <kperea@...>:

            > Hi I'm new to this list and the SCA. I have done various types of
            > needlework in the past most predominately Counted cross-stitch. I
            > would like to try my hand at a counted Cross-stitch from the SCA time
            > period but I don't know where to start. Does anyone have any
            > suggestions I would appreciate them. I can't wait to view your work
            > at Twelfth night. I am finding myself being sucked into the SCA very
            > quickly! :)
            >
            > Katerina


            Polychrome cross-stitch that makes a "picture" was done in our period --
            look at the slips on the Oxburgh Hangings. Now, as to whether those
            are *counted* or not, is anybody's guess. I have a copy of the
            correspondance between the lady from the East and the Victoria and
            Albert on the subject if that information never made it to this list.
            The Official Word (tm) from the V&A is that they are indeed
            Cross-stitched.

            Jerusha in Meridies
            -----
            Susan Farmer
            sfarmer@...
            University of Tennessee
            Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
            http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
          • Debra Cobb
            Katerina, regarding your question about counted cross stitch and period embroidery, I d like to add to Thyri s wonderful suggestions, by mentioning that you
            Message 5 of 7 , Dec 20, 2005
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              Katerina, regarding your question about counted cross stitch and period
              embroidery, I'd like to add to Thyri's wonderful suggestions, by mentioning
              that you might also wish to look at the "tent stitch" or petit
              point....which is 1/2 of a cross stitch, quite easy to learn and it can be
              counted. Modern stitchers use this stitch for needlepoint. This stitch was
              used in the late 1500's-early 1600's for items such as pouches (AKA sweet
              bags) and cushions. I think that the Guild has 1 or 2 kits that may have
              this stitch in it, complete with fabric, thread and instructions. And I
              believe that the guild's website has 1 or 2 articles on canvaswork written
              for the guild newsletter Filum Aureum. That article might be very helpful
              in explaining these various types of stitches and usage in the Middle Ages.

              I would also like to suggest that for a great overview of
              embroidery...especially for newcomers into the world of medieval period
              embroidery...look for the book called:

              Medieval Craftsment: Embroiderers
              Staniland, Kay
              Univ. of Toronto Press, Buffalo NY, 1997
              ISBN# 0-8020-6915-0

              Staniland is or was a curator at the Museum of London and is very
              knowlegeble about embroidered textiles. This book is quick to read and
              puts embroidery in a chronological perspective. I think it runs about $20-25
              and should be available at Amazon.com.

              There's also an excellent list of needlework books on the guild website that
              our guild patron Sabrina de la Bere had put together a couple of years ago.
              The list has brief descriptions and might be helpful to you as you start to
              explore the world of medieval needlework.

              Hope this helps,

              Isela




              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Thyri de Peel" <jjmcgaffey@...>
              To: "rhysh73" <kperea@...>
              Cc: <WKneedle@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Dec 20, 2005 3:50 AM
              Subject: Re: [WKneedle] first project


              > You might try the long-armed cross pincushion project from the
              > Needleworkers Guild. I'm a cross-stitcher too, and did that project -
              > very interesting!
              >
              > From what I've seen (and I am _not_ a researcher, this is
              > data-picked-up-in-passing), counted cross stitch the way we do it
              > today - with many colors making a picture - was rare to non-existent
              > in period. Cross stitch covering the entire surface, in one color or
              > many, appeared; the one-color samplers you sometimes see are about the
              > closest modern xstitch gets to that. Assisi work (cross stitch
              > everywhere except where you let the cloth show through to make a
              > picture) also appears in period.
              >
              > I'm using 'period' here the way you (I think) were using it - anything
              > in the SCA period (pre-1600). The Guild members (and Heralds, and...)
              > will be very happy to help you narrow down your period of interest if
              > you want to have a real historical-type persona - bleah, that's badly
              > phrased. Put it this way - some people just want to be 'period',
              > others want to be from a particular time and place. And every
              > variation between... So if you (now or a bit later) have a particular
              > period you want to belong to, the Guild members (those researcher-type
              > people!) will be glad to help you work out what you might have been
              > doing in that period - what's 'period' for your particular-time
              > persona. But as a start, and an interesting segue from modern counted
              > cross, try the long-armed cross.
              >
              > And by the way - welcome to the SCA!
              >
              > Monday, December 19, 2005, 1:04:50 PM, rhysh73 wrote:
              >
              > r> Hi I'm new to this list and the SCA. I have done various types of
              > r> needlework in the past most predominately Counted cross-stitch. I
              > r> would like to try my hand at a counted Cross-stitch from the SCA time
              > r> period but I don't know where to start. Does anyone have any
              > r> suggestions I would appreciate them. I can't wait to view your work
              > r> at Twelfth night. I am finding myself being sucked into the SCA very
              > r> quickly! :)
              > r>
              > r> Katerina
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              >
              > r> ==================(´´) --__--__--__--__--__
              > r>
              > r> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your e-mail address, or change
              > r> your options on the [WKneedle] list, go to
              > r> http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups and follow the directions. If you
              > r> have problems doing this, please e-mail the Guild Deputy, Christian
              > r> de Holacombe, at <claning@...>. The WK Needleworkers Guild
              > r> Website is at http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle.
              > r>
              > r> ==================(´´) --__--__--__--__--__
              > r>
              > r>
              >
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              >
              > r> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > r>
              > r>
              > r> Visit your group "WKneedle" on the web.
              > r> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > r> WKneedle-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > r> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              >
              > r>
              > r>
              > r>
              >
              > ---
              > Thyri de Peel
              > Barony of Westermark
              > Principality of the Mists
              > West Kingdom
              > I used to have a Heisenbergmobile, but every time I looked at the
              > speedometer, I got lost.
              > jjmcgaffey@...
              >
              >
              >
              > ==================(´´) --__--__--__--__--__
              >
              > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your e-mail address, or change your
              > options on the [WKneedle] list, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/mygroups and
              > follow the directions. If you have problems doing this, please e-mail the
              > Guild Deputy, Christian de Holacombe, at <claning@...>. The WK
              > Needleworkers Guild Website is at http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle.
              >
              > ==================(´´) --__--__--__--__--__
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Chris Laning
              Welcome! If I may, I will modestly recommend (modestly, because I wrote it!) the article on period cross stitch that s on our Guild website at:
              Message 6 of 7 , Dec 20, 2005
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                Welcome!

                If I may, I will modestly recommend (modestly, because I wrote it!)
                the article on period cross stitch that's on our Guild website at:
                http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/cross_stitch.html
                and the patterns at:
                http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/cross_stitch_patterns.html
                (unfortunately the page loads slowly -- lots of images)

                I also just put a new and better PDF file of the Sens pincushion
                instructions in the WKneedle FILES section in the Kits folder:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WKneedle/iles/Guild%20Kits/
                That is in long-armed cross stitch, and includes stitch diagrams to
                help get you started.

                To elaborate on the discussion a bit further --
                At 9:16 AM -0600 12/20/05, Jerusha in Meridies wrote:
                >Polychrome cross-stitch that makes a "picture" was done in our period --
                >look at the slips on the Oxburgh Hangings. Now, as to whether those
                >are *counted* or not, is anybody's guess. I have a copy of the
                >correspondance between the lady from the East and the Victoria and
                >Albert on the subject if that information never made it to this list.
                >The Official Word (tm) from the V&A is that they are indeed
                >Cross-stitched.

                Jerusha will probably forgive me if I post here the notes (with a bit
                of editing) that I posted to her kingdom's maiing list when I was
                trying to explain period cross stitch awhile back.

                Whether "counted cross stitch" is period depends on one's definition
                of "counted cross stitch."

                If you mean "cross stitching worked so that the size of each stitch
                is determined by working it over a certain number of threads of the
                linen (most often 2 or 3)," that certainly _is_ period, and we have
                lots of examples.

                On the other hand, if you mean the kind of project you find in modern
                needlework shops, where an elaborate multi-colored and shaded chart
                is used to make more or less realistic pictures of castles, dragons
                and flower gardens <g>, then no, that's not a period style.

                Admittedly it's difficult to explain exactly _how_ these styles
                differ, which is one reason why there is so much confusion about
                whether "cross stitch" is period. It's especially hard to explain the
                difference to people new to historical embroidery. You really have to
                _see_ a number of period examples to understand; explanations in
                words tend to be over-simplified and often very misleading.

                One difference is the subject matter. I tend to mention dragons,
                castles, rainbows, unicorns and landscapes when I'm trying to explain
                what I mean by "modern cross stitch," because the only dragons I've
                seen in medieval embroidery are heraldic. They're not curled around
                castles, flying through rainbows or nose-to-nose with princesses. I
                also don't see a lot of realistic landscapes, especially landscapes
                without people. So no views of mountain lakes (remember, mountains
                were considered "ugly" till the 19th century), lighthouses, or "medieval"
                landscapes with ocean waves, castles and storm clouds.

                Another difference is the number of colors and the elaborateness
                of the shading. A piece like "The Pheasant" from the Oxburgh hangings
                is about 100 stitches by 100 stitches (though the corners are cut out
                to make a cross shape), and uses (by my count) about a dozen
                different shades of thread. The larger panel with the interlaced
                letters RSAIM etc. with a crown uses about the same number. Randomly
                searching a few modern cross-stitch sites, the _smallest_ number of
                colors I found used in a piece of comparable size was 18, and that
                was for a piece that looked monochromatic. Several were in the 30 to
                40 range. In larger or more multicolored pictures, it's not at all
                uncommon for modern pieces to use 70, 80 or even 100 colors.

                A few examples from one site:
                http://www.pegasusor.com/detail.cfm?ID=765
                http://www.pegasusor.com/detail.cfm?ID=97
                http://www.pegasusor.com/detail.cfm?ID=90

                Cross-stitch is probably the most familiar stitch for a lot of people
                who are just starting out, and it's a fine stitch for a lot of
                historical projects. But it's important to understand that medieval
                and Renaissance embroiderers used cross stitch in a very different
                way than we tend to think of it. Understanding the different mind-set
                is as important a part of historical embroidery as being able to
                thread a needle.
                --
                ____________________________________________________________

                O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
                + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                ____________________________________________________________
              • Susan B. Farmer
                ... much good stuff snipped. That s probably the best explanation of the differences between modern and period cross stitch that I think I ve seen. :-)
                Message 7 of 7 , Dec 20, 2005
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                  Quoting Chris Laning <claning@...>:

                  > Welcome!
                  >
                  > If I may, I will modestly recommend (modestly, because I wrote it!)
                  > the article on period cross stitch that's on our Guild website at:
                  > http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/cross_stitch.html
                  > and the patterns at:
                  > http://www.bayrose.org/wkneedle/Articles/cross_stitch_patterns.html
                  > (unfortunately the page loads slowly -- lots of images)
                  >

                  much good stuff snipped.

                  That's probably the best explanation of the differences between modern
                  and period cross stitch that I think I've seen. :-)

                  Jerusha
                  -----
                  Susan Farmer
                  sfarmer@...
                  University of Tennessee
                  Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                  http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
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