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Request for Research Help

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  • Cascata
    Greetings to all the fellow needleworkers, I have not forgotten about our dialogue over the sojourner s program. However, since your end is on hold for awhile
    Message 1 of 8 , May 3, 2012
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      Greetings to all the fellow needleworkers,

      I have not forgotten about our dialogue over the sojourner's program. However, since your end is on hold for awhile I'm letting both reality and our current A&S competition take precedence.

      To that end, I'm requesting help in locating resources on period cup covers and napkins. I already have two relatively good online sources. Most of you are now yelling at the computer "Go to the library!" The problem with that is that I'm in the Stronghold of Warrior's Gate (Korea), I've never even heard of an English language library in Korea. So I'm resorting to asking you for online references or scanned books to the aforementioned cup cover and napkins.

      For those of you that are wondering the whole competition is feast gear (so if you have period references to a whole tablesetting, I'd be grateful if you'd pass those along as well).

      Here are the two references that I have found so far:
      http://www.foodreference.com/html/art-history-napkins-729.html
      http://www.funtrivia.com/trivia-quiz/History/A-Brief-History-of-the-Napkin-331769.html

      Thank you!

      Eternally Hopeful,
      Casi
    • Conny Fitzsimmons (Catherine Lorraine)
      Good evening Cascata, I have never done any research into period cup covers so can t help you there however I do have a picture of an Italian that was part
      Message 2 of 8 , May 3, 2012
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        Good evening Cascata,

        I have never done any research into period cup covers so can't help you
        there however I do have a picture of an Italian that was part of an
        exhibit in the V & A a few years back

        There is a book of the exhibit: At home in renaissance Italy edited by
        Marta Ajmar-Wollheim and Flora Dennis. The book is currently listed with
        Amazon in paperback form

        The napkin has a very elaborate border design in red silk on a linen
        ground, and hem stitched with red floss too. The napkin is from the 16th
        century .

        I created a photo file in the yahoo site titled Italian embroidered
        napkin. and uploaded the picture of the napkin and the picture of the book
        cover.

        Catherine Lorraine





        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Cascata" <CascataNerina@...>
        To: <WKneedle@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 9:18 PM
        Subject: [WKneedle] Request for Research Help


        Greetings to all the fellow needleworkers,

        I have not forgotten about our dialogue over the sojourner's program.
        However, since your end is on hold for awhile I'm letting both reality and
        our current A&S competition take precedence.

        To that end, I'm requesting help in locating resources on period cup covers
        and napkins. I already have two relatively good online sources. Most of you
        are now yelling at the computer "Go to the library!" The problem with that
        is that I'm in the Stronghold of Warrior's Gate (Korea), I've never even
        heard of an English language library in Korea. So I'm resorting to asking
        you for online references or scanned books to the aforementioned cup cover
        and napkins.

        For those of you that are wondering the whole competition is feast gear (so
        if you have period references to a whole tablesetting, I'd be grateful if
        you'd pass those along as well).

        Here are the two references that I have found so far:
        http://www.foodreference.com/html/art-history-napkins-729.html
        http://www.funtrivia.com/trivia-quiz/History/A-Brief-History-of-the-Napkin-331769.html

        Thank you!

        Eternally Hopeful,
        Casi
      • Conny Fitzsimmons (Catherine Lorraine)
        Hi again, I just did a search on the images at the V & A and a picture of the napkin I was talking about is online go to:
        Message 3 of 8 , May 3, 2012
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          Hi again,

          I just did a search on the images at the V & A and a picture of the
          napkin I was talking about is online go to:

          http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O119345/napkin/ there is a better
          description of the napkin along with a nice closeup and you can download
          the images..

          Catherine Lorraine

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Cascata" <CascataNerina@...>
          To: <WKneedle@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 9:18 PM
          Subject: [WKneedle] Request for Research Help


          Greetings to all the fellow needleworkers,

          I have not forgotten about our dialogue over the sojourner's program.
          However, since your end is on hold for awhile I'm letting both reality and
          our current A&S competition take precedence.

          To that end, I'm requesting help in locating resources on period cup covers
          and napkins. I already have two relatively good online sources. Most of you
          are now yelling at the computer "Go to the library!" The problem with that
          is that I'm in the Stronghold of Warrior's Gate (Korea), I've never even
          heard of an English language library in Korea. So I'm resorting to asking
          you for online references or scanned books to the aforementioned cup cover
          and napkins.

          For those of you that are wondering the whole competition is feast gear (so
          if you have period references to a whole tablesetting, I'd be grateful if
          you'd pass those along as well).

          Here are the two references that I have found so far:
          http://www.foodreference.com/html/art-history-napkins-729.html
          http://www.funtrivia.com/trivia-quiz/History/A-Brief-History-of-the-Napkin-331769.html

          Thank you!

          Eternally Hopeful,
          Casi




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Cascata" <CascataNerina@...>
          To: <WKneedle@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 9:18 PM
          Subject: [WKneedle] Request for Research Help


          Greetings to all the fellow needleworkers,

          I have not forgotten about our dialogue over the sojourner's program.
          However, since your end is on hold for awhile I'm letting both reality and
          our current A&S competition take precedence.

          To that end, I'm requesting help in locating resources on period cup covers
          and napkins. I already have two relatively good online sources. Most of you
          are now yelling at the computer "Go to the library!" The problem with that
          is that I'm in the Stronghold of Warrior's Gate (Korea), I've never even
          heard of an English language library in Korea. So I'm resorting to asking
          you for online references or scanned books to the aforementioned cup cover
          and napkins.

          For those of you that are wondering the whole competition is feast gear (so
          if you have period references to a whole tablesetting, I'd be grateful if
          you'd pass those along as well).

          Here are the two references that I have found so far:
          http://www.foodreference.com/html/art-history-napkins-729.html
          http://www.funtrivia.com/trivia-quiz/History/A-Brief-History-of-the-Napkin-331769.html

          Thank you!

          Eternally Hopeful,
          Casi
        • Yvianne
          Greetings from Yvianne The original post for information gave me the perfect opportunity to procrastinate on going to the gym ;-) I did a Google image search
          Message 4 of 8 , May 4, 2012
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            Greetings from Yvianne

            The original post for information gave me the perfect opportunity to
            procrastinate on going to the gym ;-)

            I did a Google image search on medieval napkin which turned up a chalice
            veil that intrigued me

            http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/120031106?rpp=20&pg=1&ft=*&what=Veils&pos=18

            Of course I had to follow up by searching the collections at the Met and V&A
            for ...chalice veil. I found a few but the one that excited me the most was
            this awesome description, unfortunately there's no image :-(

            Chalice veil
            Place of origin: Italy (made)

            Date:16th century (made)

            Artist/Maker:Unknown (production)

            Materials and Techniques:

            Linen embroidered with coloured silks, and couched silver, silver-gilt
            thread and purl, glass beads and pearls and lined with silk taffeta

            Museum number:

            T.369-1989

            Physical description

            Chalice veil of finely woven cream linen backed with cream silk taffeta, and
            principally embroidered with silver-gilt thread but with small areas in
            coloured silks. Embroidery details in purl, silver and silver-gilt and
            pearls. The metal thread consists of flat strips wound round a silk core.
            Where used to fill-in part of the pattern, the metal threads are couched
            down in pairs with yellow silk, and the couching threads are stepped along
            each adjacent line of metal threads so as to form a brick pattern. A woven
            silver-gilt braid is sewn round the edge of the veil. The linen is edged
            with a scrolling foliage pattern, and in each corner there is a foliate and
            floral motif. Both edging and corner motifs are in couched gold thread with
            silver-gilt and silver purl with in-fills of coloured silks in yellow,
            salmon pink and blue.

            In the centre is a chalice of couched gold thread, gold purl, pearl and
            coloured glass beads from which the figure of Christ emerges showing the
            wounds of the crucifixion on hands and chest (only waist upwards are
            visible). The figure is embroidered in split and straight stitches in
            pinkish flesh colours to create realistic contours for the body, hair and
            beard, and the wound made in his left chest and for the drops of blood from
            his hands. The nimbus round His head is in red and gold. His eyes are black.
            The figure is surrounded by an oval 'wreath' of interlinked ribbon and
            stylised floral devices and two grotesque masks. Sprays of scrolling foliage
            spring from the sides of the oval. The bottom spray shows a heraldic device
            depicting a lion rampant in coloured silks. The lion is black on a yellow
            ground under a canopy of red and blue. The embroidery on the lion is
            damaged.

            WOW!!
            I'm a great visual thinker, but my mind is numb right now.

            Yvianne de Castel d'Avignon
          • a_velvet_claw
            Yvianne, What a fascinating piece! What a pity there s no image. Don t you just hate that? Thankyou for pointing out the description though :-) Elmsley Rose
            Message 5 of 8 , May 5, 2012
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              Yvianne,

              What a fascinating piece! What a pity there's no image. Don't you just hate that? Thankyou for pointing out the description though :-)

              Elmsley Rose

              ......
              > this awesome description, unfortunately there's no image :-(
              >
              > Chalice veil
              > Place of origin: Italy (made)
              >
            • Tréphine la Broderesse
              Greetings, I usually lurk from Atlantia, but I thought I d mention Mistress Karen Larsdatter s fabulous on-line resource. Here s a link to the sitemap and
              Message 6 of 8 , May 6, 2012
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                Greetings,

                I usually lurk from Atlantia, but I thought I'd mention Mistress Karen
                Larsdatter's fabulous on-line resource. Here's a link to the sitemap and
                there's a category of "Gastronomical material culture" with links to
                paintings of feasts as well as Perugia napkins, etc. Plus there are all
                kinds of needlework, etc. links that can help you waste many many hours!

                http://larsdatter.com/sitemap.htm

                Back to lurking,
                Tréphine la Broderesse


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Chris Laning
                ... A few comments: The history of napkins resources named above don t look to me as though they have been very deeply researched. They probably have some
                Message 7 of 8 , May 7, 2012
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                  > To that end, I'm requesting help in locating resources on period cup covers and napkins. I already have two relatively good online sources. Most of you are now yelling at the computer "Go to the library!" The problem with that is that I'm in the Stronghold of Warrior's Gate (Korea), I've never even heard of an English language library in Korea. So I'm resorting to asking you for online references or scanned books to the aforementioned cup cover and napkins.
                  >
                  > For those of you that are wondering the whole competition is feast gear (so if you have period references to a whole tablesetting, I'd be grateful if you'd pass those along as well).
                  >
                  > Here are the two references that I have found so far:
                  > http://www.foodreference.com/html/art-history-napkins-729.html
                  > http://www.funtrivia.com/trivia-quiz/History/A-Brief-History-of-the-Napkin-331769.html


                  A few comments:

                  The "history of napkins" resources named above don't look to me as though they have been very deeply researched. They probably have some good information in them, but it's going to be a bit difficult to pick out which is good information based on period napkins, and which is speculation based on modern napkins. The other examples people have suggested are probably better sources.

                  A lot of people start out assuming that napkins in period were embroidered like napkins often are today, rather like handkerchiefs with a nice hem and a motif embroidered in one corner. I don't know as I've ever seen this in descriptions, paintings, or existing examples of period napkins. From the limited amount of reading I've done, napkins in period seem to be predominantly plain white, sometimes (especially in the 16th century) with a woven-in damask design, or else they follow the model of towels, with a line of simple embroidery close to the edge. I suspect this is because they need to stand up to a lot of washing. Handkerchiefs, which are sometimes used as a model for napkins, tend to be smaller and to have more embroidery on them, since they were often worn "for show" rather than for actual use.

                  As for cup covers, all the chalice veils I know of are church-related, but I know lots of people would be very interested if we could find period examples of cup covers that were used, for instance, at period picnics. I know that in warm-weather areas today, a little square cloth cup cover with bead-weighted edges is very helpful for keeping bees and wasps out of an open cup of beverage. Chalice veils are probably the best model we have, but the period chalice covers that have survived seem to be larger and more heavily embroidered than would really be practical for a piece of feast gear that probably would have to be washed often.

                  Lastly, I've asked the folks in the "Perfectly Period Feast" group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PerfectlyPeriodFeast/ -- if you don't know them, the name is definitely tongue-in-cheek!) what resources they have been able to turn up on table linens. I know there are some good collections of pictures that people have made, and hope they will have some additional resources to contribute. So that might be a good place to look. As far as I know anyone is welcome to join that group.

                  ____________________________________________________________

                  O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
                  + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                  http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                  ____________________________________________________________
                • Chris Laning
                  ... ____________________________________________________________ O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads + Kingdom of the West - Chris
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 7, 2012
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                    I don't think this message made it to the group:

                    > From: dcobb@...
                    > Subject: Re: Request for Research Help
                    > Date: May 7, 2012 12:16:18 PM PDT
                    > To: WKneedle-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > One book you might wish to read that discusses historical background in a "more-general-than-detailed" sense but nicely laid out with some wonderful pictures is:
                    >
                    > The Book of Fine Linen by Francoise De Bonneville and Marc Porthault
                    >
                    > The book covers bed, bath and table linens. This book is a good jumping off point for further research into household linens.
                    >
                    > Isela
                    >
                    > --- In WKneedle@yahoogroups.com, Tréphine la Broderesse <trephina@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Greetings,
                    >>
                    >> I usually lurk from Atlantia, but I thought I'd mention Mistress Karen
                    >> Larsdatter's fabulous on-line resource. Here's a link to the sitemap and
                    >> there's a category of "Gastronomical material culture" with links to
                    >> paintings of feasts as well as Perugia napkins, etc. Plus there are all
                    >> kinds of needlework, etc. links that can help you waste many many hours!
                    >>
                    >> http://larsdatter.com/sitemap.htm
                    >>
                    >> Back to lurking,
                    >> Tréphine la Broderesse
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    ____________________________________________________________

                    O (Dame) Christian de Holacombe, OL - Shire of Windy Meads
                    + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                    http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                    ____________________________________________________________
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