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Re: [Virtual Indian] Shims and Thrust Washer behind pinion side housing... why?

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  • John Welch
    Rob, the thrust washer provides a hardened surface for the end of the bearing cage to ride against. It sits in a recess in the pinion housing s outer end and
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 1 8:41 AM
        Rob, the thrust washer provides a hardened surface for the end of the bearing cage to ride against. It sits in a recess in the pinion housing's outer end and does not shift the housing position. It has to be there, otherwise the bearing cage will wear away the soft AL case.and migrate into the cam chest.
        Instruction for the shims, while still not fully clear, is outlined in the "Operation & Maintenance" manual for the 340-B & 344 models (AKA military shop manual TM-10-1333). Basically they are used to center the flywheels in the case when, at the time, only two sizes of flywheel thrust washers were available. For the most part, I've found this can now be done with thrust washers only due to the much wider assortment now available.

         Most or all dealers sell the book and it is a good companion to the Repair and Overhaul manual for the 74" as it is much more detailed. Jerry Greer PN is TM1333.
        Keep in mind that the final side play is established on the sprocket side of the flywheels between the flywheel thrust washer and the sprocket thrust washer. Final play after the sprocket is on is less than with sprocket off and shifted to the left by about .010" which will shift the flywheel centering. Establishing proper final end play while maintaining the flywheels on center is somewhat a trial and error situation. End result with sprocket on should be .005" to .010" side play and centered within .016" (1/64").
        My method is to set  centering and final side play .005"-.010" first using sprocket and left flywheel washers then remove the sprocket and set side play to .015"-.020" using right side flywheel washers.
         John
       
       
      On 10/01/13, Rob Root<willitrun@...> wrote:
       
      Hi esteemed Indian Gurus,

      I am making what seems like glacial progress at assembling my '47
      Indian Chief engine. Got the crank assembled, balanced and trued.
      Finally!

      My (potentially dumb) question for today: The Indian manual talks
      about shim(s) and thrust washer behind the pinion side housing
      (installed between the housing and the case), but makes no mention of
      what they are there to shim, or what measurement indicates correct
      shimming??

      I understand that the thrust washers on the flywheels are used to set
      end play on the crank, and also to center it. Reading the '48 section
      of the manual, it mentions that the pinion housing should be proud of
      the case by 0.020"... On the older '47 case, is that what the shims
      are for? Simply to get the pinion housing to stick out the correct
      amount when fully seated? I measured with a feeler gauge, and my
      pinion housing is very close to .020" above the case, so I hope that's
      the goal...


      ------------------------------------

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    • flathead_wl
      Thanks to all for the great info. Thanks also for explaining the external thrust washer situation as well, as that would have been my next question... Given
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 3 6:25 PM

        Thanks to all for the great info.  Thanks also for explaining the external thrust washer situation as well, as that would have been my next question...


        Given that you mention that achieving proper end play is kind of a trial and error situation, I was wondering if there was a rule of thumb for how much sealant would change the end play?  Is it enough to affect the selection of thrust washers?


        While I'm at it, any opinions on sealant for the case halves?  I have heard of Yamabond and also a 3m product called ThreeBond 1184...


        If I pull off this rebuild, I will be seriously indebted to lots of people on this list.  Thanks!



        ---In VirtualIndian@yahoogroups.com, <virtualindian@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Rob, the thrust washer provides a hardened surface for the end of the bearing cage to ride against. It sits in a recess in the pinion housing's outer end and does not shift the housing position. It has to be there, otherwise the bearing cage will wear away the soft AL case.and migrate into the cam chest.
          Instruction for the shims, while still not fully clear, is outlined in the "Operation & Maintenance" manual for the 340-B & 344 models (AKA military shop manual TM-10-1333). Basically they are used to center the flywheels in the case when, at the time, only two sizes of flywheel thrust washers were available. For the most part, I've found this can now be done with thrust washers only due to the much wider assortment now available.

           Most or all dealers sell the book and it is a good companion to the Repair and Overhaul manual for the 74" as it is much more detailed. Jerry Greer PN is TM1333.
          Keep in mind that the final side play is established on the sprocket side of the flywheels between the flywheel thrust washer and the sprocket thrust washer. Final play after the sprocket is on is less than with sprocket off and shifted to the left by about .010" which will shift the flywheel centering. Establishing proper final end play while maintaining the flywheels on center is somewhat a trial and error situation. End result with sprocket on should be .005" to .010" side play and centered within .016" (1/64").
          My method is to set  centering and final side play .005"-.010" first using sprocket and left flywheel washers then remove the sprocket and set side play to .015"-.020" using right side flywheel washers.
           John
         
         
        On 10/01/13, Rob Root<willitrun@...> wrote:
         
        Hi esteemed Indian Gurus,

        I am making what seems like glacial progress at assembling my '47
        Indian Chief engine. Got the crank assembled, balanced and trued.
        Finally!

        My (potentially dumb) question for today: The Indian manual talks
        about shim(s) and thrust washer behind the pinion side housing
        (installed between the housing and the case), but makes no mention of
        what they are there to shim, or what measurement indicates correct
        shimming??

        I understand that the thrust washers on the flywheels are used to set
        end play on the crank, and also to center it. Reading the '48 section
        of the manual, it mentions that the pinion housing should be proud of
        the case by 0.020"... On the older '47 case, is that what the shims
        are for? Simply to get the pinion housing to stick out the correct
        amount when fully seated? I measured with a feeler gauge, and my
        pinion housing is very close to .020" above the case, so I hope that's
        the goal...


        ------------------------------------

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      • Terry Duffy
        Will  No sealant won t effect the play, You might consider Hylomar Blue, good stuff can be removed if need be and isn t bothered by oil and fuel. You can
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 3 7:22 PM
          Will
           No sealant won't effect the play, You might consider Hylomar Blue, good stuff can be removed if need be and isn't bothered by oil and fuel. You can pick it up at Autozone, Advance Auto Parts, NAPA and most bike shops. I would not use 3-Bond 1184. Old tech would be Permitx the type that does not set up hard but stays flexible along with a very thin single piece of cotton thread looped from front to back of crank case half again this is old racer tech.
          Duff

          From: "willitrun@..." <willitrun@...>
          To: VirtualIndian@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 9:25 PM
          Subject: RE: Re: [Virtual Indian] Shims and Thrust Washer behind pinion side housing... why?



          Thanks to all for the great info.  Thanks also for explaining the external thrust washer situation as well, as that would have been my next question...

          Given that you mention that achieving proper end play is kind of a trial and error situation, I was wondering if there was a rule of thumb for how much sealant would change the end play?  Is it enough to affect the selection of thrust washers?

          While I'm at it, any opinions on sealant for the case halves?  I have heard of Yamabond and also a 3m product called ThreeBond 1184...

          If I pull off this rebuild, I will be seriously indebted to lots of people on this list.  Thanks!


          ---In VirtualIndian@yahoogroups.com, <virtualindian@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Rob, the thrust washer provides a hardened surface for the end of the bearing cage to ride against. It sits in a recess in the pinion housing's outer end and does not shift the housing position. It has to be there, otherwise the bearing cage will wear away the soft AL case.and migrate into the cam chest.
            Instruction for the shims, while still not fully clear, is outlined in the "Operation & Maintenance" manual for the 340-B & 344 models (AKA military shop manual TM-10-1333). Basically they are used to center the flywheels in the case when, at the time, only two sizes of flywheel thrust washers were available. For the most part, I've found this can now be done with thrust washers only due to the much wider assortment now available.

             Most or all dealers sell the book and it is a good companion to the Repair and Overhaul manual for the 74" as it is much more detailed. Jerry Greer PN is TM1333.
            Keep in mind that the final side play is established on the sprocket side of the flywheels between the flywheel thrust washer and the sprocket thrust washer. Final play after the sprocket is on is less than with sprocket off and shifted to the left by about .010" which will shift the flywheel centering. Establishing proper final end play while maintaining the flywheels on center is somewhat a trial and error situation. End result with sprocket on should be .005" to .010" side play and centered within .016" (1/64").
            My method is to set  centering and final side play .005"-.010" first using sprocket and left flywheel washers then remove the sprocket and set side play to .015"-.020" using right side flywheel washers.
             John
           
           
          On 10/01/13, Rob Root<willitrun@...> wrote:
           
          Hi esteemed Indian Gurus,

          I am making what seems like glacial progress at assembling my '47
          Indian Chief engine. Got the crank assembled, balanced and trued.
          Finally!

          My (potentially dumb) question for today: The Indian manual talks
          about shim(s) and thrust washer behind the pinion side housing
          (installed between the housing and the case), but makes no mention of
          what they are there to shim, or what measurement indicates correct
          shimming??

          I understand that the thrust washers on the flywheels are used to set
          end play on the crank, and also to center it. Reading the '48 section
          of the manual, it mentions that the pinion housing should be proud of
          the case by 0.020"... On the older '47 case, is that what the shims
          are for? Simply to get the pinion housing to stick out the correct
          amount when fully seated? I measured with a feeler gauge, and my
          pinion housing is very close to .020" above the case, so I hope that's
          the goal...


          ------------------------------------

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        • John Welch
          Will, If not lathered on, the sealant should have little if any effect on side play and in any event, should only affect sprocket off side play by increasing
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 4 9:18 AM
            Will,
              If  not lathered on, the sealant should have little if any effect on side play and in any event, should only affect sprocket off side play by increasing it slightly. Recheck after mating the sealed cases that the sprocket off side play has not exceeded the .020" upper limit by any appreciable amount.
              Duff's suggestions about sealers are appropriate but be careful with the string method. If it is thicker on one side, it can warp the main bearing alignment somewhat.
              John
             
             
            On 10/03/13, willitrun@... wrote:
             


            Thanks to all for the great info.  Thanks also for explaining the external thrust washer situation as well, as that would have been my next question...


            Given that you mention that achieving proper end play is kind of a trial and error situation, I was wondering if there was a rule of thumb for how much sealant would change the end play?  Is it enough to affect the selection of thrust washers?


            While I'm at it, any opinions on sealant for the case halves?  I have heard of Yamabond and also a 3m product called ThreeBond 1184..


            If I pull off this rebuild, I will be seriously indebted to lots of people on this list.  Thanks!



            ---In VirtualIndian@yahoogroups.com, <virtualindian@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Rob, the thrust washer provides a hardened surface for the end of the bearing cage to ride against. It sits in a recess in the pinion housing's outer end and does not shift the housing position. It has to be there, otherwise the bearing cage will wear away the soft AL case.and migrate into the cam chest.
              Instruction for the shims, while still not fully clear, is outlined in the "Operation & Maintenance" manual for the 340-B & 344 models (AKA military shop manual TM-10-1333). Basically they are used to center the flywheels in the case when, at the time, only two sizes of flywheel thrust washers were available. For the most part, I've found this can now be done with thrust washers only due to the much wider assortment now available.

               Most or all dealers sell the book and it is a good companion to the Repair and Overhaul manual for the 74" as it is much more detailed. Jerry Greer PN is TM1333.
              Keep in mind that the final side play is established on the sprocket side of the flywheels between the flywheel thrust washer and the sprocket thrust washer. Final play after the sprocket is on is less than with sprocket off and shifted to the left by about .010" which will shift the flywheel centering. Establishing proper final end play while maintaining the flywheels on center is somewhat a trial and error situation. End result with sprocket on should be .005" to .010" side play and centered within .016" (1/64").
              My method is to set  centering and final side play .005"-.010" first using sprocket and left flywheel washers then remove the sprocket and set side play to .015"-.020" using right side flywheel washers.
               John
             
             
            On 10/01/13, Rob Root<willitrun@...> wrote:
             
            Hi esteemed Indian Gurus,

            I am making what seems like glacial progress at assembling my '47
            Indian Chief engine. Got the crank assembled, balanced and trued.
            Finally!

            My (potentially dumb) question for today: The Indian manual talks
            about shim(s) and thrust washer behind the pinion side housing
            (installed between the housing and the case), but makes no mention of
            what they are there to shim, or what measurement indicates correct
            shimming??

            I understand that the thrust washers on the flywheels are used to set
            end play on the crank, and also to center it. Reading the '48 section
            of the manual, it mentions that the pinion housing should be proud of
            the case by 0.020"... On the older '47 case, is that what the shims
            are for? Simply to get the pinion housing to stick out the correct
            amount when fully seated? I measured with a feeler gauge, and my
            pinion housing is very close to .020" above the case, so I hope that's
            the goal...


            ------------------------------------

            POST MESSAGE: VirtualIndian@yahoogroups.com

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