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Looking for information about high powered VDG

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  • mrapol
    I am trying to learn more about VDGs that use external charge sources to create higher power output. I have a DC induction coil that I think would serve as a
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 10, 2010
      I am trying to learn more about VDGs that use external charge sources to create higher power output. I have a DC induction coil that I think would serve as a good source, but all the info I've found on the subject is very general, and I want more precise guidance. Can anyone refer me to a good text on the subject?

      Thanks,

      Paul
    • Richard Linder
      Hi Paul: I can only relate my experience with external charge sources. From my collection of pictures you can see that I built a large VDG and another even
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 11, 2010

        Hi Paul:

         

        I can only relate my experience with external charge sources. From my collection of pictures you can see that I built a large VDG and another even larger. I tried external charging sources with no luck. I tried neon sign transformers, oil burner ignition transformers and electrostatic precipitator power supplies. Needless to say, the transformers were full wave rectified. The main problem I encountered was arcing from the spray points to the roller. Increasing the gap reduced the arcing problem but also reduced the charging current so the net gain was zero. My largest VDG can achieve over 100 uA self charging current so I decided the hazard that was presented by an external supply was not worth the trouble. I hope you have better luck.

         

        Dick Linder

         


        From: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com [mailto: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of mrapol
        Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 10:18 AM
        To: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [VanDeGraaffGenerator] Looking for information about high powered VDG

         

         

        I am trying to learn more about VDGs that use external charge sources to create higher power output. I have a DC induction coil that I think would serve as a good source, but all the info I've found on the subject is very general, and I want more precise guidance. Can anyone refer me to a good text on the subject?

        Thanks,

        Paul

      • mrapol
        Thanks for your reply. My first efforts along this line have not borne fruit. I have a 100KV DC induction coil (commonly sold on eBay as a Tesla coil). I
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 14, 2010
          Thanks for your reply.

          My first efforts along this line have not borne fruit. I have a 100KV DC induction coil (commonly sold on eBay as a "Tesla" coil). I rigged this with some emitter needles from a ion generator and aligned them with the belt of my small Science First VDG. Net result, zero output. The coil comes with a polarity reversing switch, so I tried both settings. Nothing. When the coil was activated, the VDG's output vanished. Seems I am nullifying the power, not augmenting it.

          I see in various diagrams the high voltage charger system requires resistors, etc. I can't find out what kind, or what value. Maybe there's an old Popular Mechanics out there with details of how this is done?

          Paul

          --- In VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Linder" <linder@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Paul:
          >
          >
          >
          > I can only relate my experience with external charge sources. From my
          > collection of pictures you can see that I built a large VDG and another even
          > larger. I tried external charging sources with no luck. I tried neon sign
          > transformers, oil burner ignition transformers and electrostatic
          > precipitator power supplies. Needless to say, the transformers were full
          > wave rectified. The main problem I encountered was arcing from the spray
          > points to the roller. Increasing the gap reduced the arcing problem but also
          > reduced the charging current so the net gain was zero. My largest VDG can
          > achieve over 100 uA self charging current so I decided the hazard that was
          > presented by an external supply was not worth the trouble. I hope you have
          > better luck.
          >
          >
          >
          > Dick Linder
          >
        • Antonio
          ... Induction coils, or Tesla coils, produce AC output. The charging current for a VDG must be DC, otherwise no net charge goes to the belt. The current must
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 15, 2010
            --- In VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com, "mrapol" <mrapol@...> wrote:
            >
            > Thanks for your reply.
            >
            > My first efforts along this line have not borne fruit. I have a 100KV DC induction coil (commonly sold on eBay as a "Tesla" coil). I rigged this with some emitter needles from a ion generator and aligned them with the belt of my small Science First VDG. Net result, zero output. The coil comes with a polarity reversing switch, so I tried both settings. Nothing. When the coil was activated, the VDG's output vanished. Seems I am nullifying the power, not augmenting it.
            >
            > I see in various diagrams the high voltage charger system requires resistors, etc. I can't find out what kind, or what value. Maybe there's an old Popular Mechanics out there with details of how this is done?

            Induction coils, or Tesla coils, produce AC output. The charging current for a VDG must be DC, otherwise no net charge goes to the belt. The current must be just the required amount to be transported by the belt. Too much current will ionize the belt surface and drain all the charge away, and may punch holes in the belt.
            I had success with an active charging device only by using an electrostatic machine. I didn't try more systematically the use of an electronic power supply, however, that surely works if the current is adequately controlled.

            Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz
          • mrapol
            Re: Looking for information about high powered VDG Thank you for your reply. The induction coil is supposedly DC, according to its maker. (Can the output be
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 16, 2010
              Re: Looking for information about high powered VDG

              Thank you for your reply.

              The induction coil is supposedly DC, according to its maker. (Can the output be
              rectified to DC?) The arcs certainly look like DC--they are thready, thin, and
              blue-white, unlike the thick, fiery AC arcs I have seen. Anyway, I can provide
              you with details of the coil, which the maker mistakenly calls a Tesla coil. The
              maker is a Canadian machinist. He peddles them on eBay.

              Would I have better luck trying to charge my VDG with my Wimshurst machine, do
              you think? Is it simply a matter of pointing an appropriate terminal at the
              active VDG belt and cranking away?

              Paul Thompson

              --- In VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com, "Antonio" <acmdq@...> wrote:

              > Induction coils, or Tesla coils, produce AC output. The charging current for a
              VDG must be DC, otherwise no net charge goes to the belt. The current must be
              just the required amount to be transported by the belt. Too much current will
              ionize the belt surface and drain all the charge away, and may punch holes in
              the belt.
              > I had success with an active charging device only by using an electrostatic
              machine. I didn't try more systematically the use of an electronic power supply,
              however, that surely works if the current is adequately controlled.
              >
              > Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz
              >
            • ToddA
              ... Hi Paul, I have tried using a negative Ion Generator with good results though the current is not all that high. I mainly use it to provide a charge when
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 16, 2010
                --- In VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com, "mrapol" <mrapol@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am trying to learn more about VDGs that use external charge sources to create higher power output. I have a DC induction coil that I think would serve as a good source, but all the info I've found on the subject is very general, and I want more precise guidance. Can anyone refer me to a good text on the subject?
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > Paul
                >

                Hi Paul,

                I have tried using a negative Ion Generator with good results though the current is not all that high. I mainly use it to provide a charge when the humidity is too high. You could also try a voltage multiplier circuit such as from this link:
                http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_voltage_multiplier.htm
                By using larger capacitors you could increase the amount of current the circuit can supply.
                Just a thought...
                Todd
              • Richard Linder
                I would take Professor Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz remarks seriously. He points out that the regulation of a properly polarized DC source is critical. As I
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 16, 2010

                  I would take Professor Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz remarks seriously. He points out that the regulation of a properly polarized DC source is critical. As I said before I had only frustration when experimenting with external supplies. Power supplies of this nature also present certain hazards. Unless you are familiar with the safety measures such as current limiting resistors and bleeder resistors you best be very careful as to what you assemble. Personally, my hindsight tells me one is better off directing efforts to understand and improving the electrostatics of the particular VDG you have like optimizing belt speed, belt material, roller, material,  and reducing current leakage.  Unless these characteristics are optimized, I would think force feeding a VDG is futile. And, even if the VDG is optimized, there will always be a limit to the achievable terminal voltage for that particular design.

                   

                  Sorry to be so negative (pun intended) but it is hard to have a cheery outlook given the monsoons we have been experiencing in New England .

                   

                  Dick Linder

                   

                   

                   


                  From: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com [mailto: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of ToddA
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:51 PM
                  To: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [VanDeGraaffGenerator] Re: Looking for information about high powered VDG

                   

                   



                  --- In VanDeGraaffGenerato r@yahoogroups. com, "mrapol" <mrapol@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > I am trying to learn more about VDGs that use external charge sources to
                  create higher power output. I have a DC induction coil that I think would serve as a good source, but all the info I've found on the subject is very general, and I want more precise guidance. Can anyone refer me to a good text on the subject?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > Paul
                  >

                  Hi Paul,

                  I have tried using a negative Ion Generator with good results though the current is not all that high. I mainly use it to provide a charge when the humidity is too high. You could also try a voltage multiplier circuit such as from this link:
                  http://www.rmcybern etics.com/ projects/ DIY_Devices/ homemade_ voltage_multipli er.htm
                  By using larger capacitors you could increase the amount of current the circuit can supply.
                  Just a thought...
                  Todd

                • mrapol
                  I certainly do take Prof. de Queiroz seriously--you might say I am a fan of his. I subscribe to his youtube videos, and I have learned a lot from his fabulous
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 17, 2010
                    I certainly do take Prof. de Queiroz seriously--you might say I am a fan of his. I subscribe to his youtube videos, and I have learned a lot from his fabulous website.

                    I'm not trying to do anything spectacular, just understand this charge-spraying effect i have read about (though everything I have read up to this point has been very vague). My VDG is a small one I built from a Science First kit. I have made various improvements in the kit (better pickup brushes, using nylon hardware in place of metal, etc). Living in North Carolina I sometimes have problems with humidity, and I thought a modest charging device would improve that. Mostly I am just curious about a process I have read about but never seen done.

                    PBT

                    --- In VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Linder" <linder@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I would take Professor Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz remarks seriously. He
                    > points out that the regulation of a properly polarized DC source is
                    > critical. As I said before I had only frustration when experimenting with
                    > external supplies. Power supplies of this nature also present certain
                    > hazards. Unless you are familiar with the safety measures such as current
                    > limiting resistors and bleeder resistors you best be very careful as to what
                    > you assemble. Personally, my hindsight tells me one is better off directing
                    > efforts to understand and improving the electrostatics of the particular VDG
                    > you have like optimizing belt speed, belt material, roller, material, and
                    > reducing current leakage. Unless these characteristics are optimized, I
                    > would think force feeding a VDG is futile. And, even if the VDG is
                    > optimized, there will always be a limit to the achievable terminal voltage
                    > for that particular design.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Sorry to be so negative (pun intended) but it is hard to have a cheery
                    > outlook given the monsoons we have been experiencing in New England.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dick Linder
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    > From: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ToddA
                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:51 PM
                    > To: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [VanDeGraaffGenerator] Re: Looking for information about high
                    > powered VDG
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In VanDeGraaffGenerato <mailto:VanDeGraaffGenerator%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > r@yahoogroups.com, "mrapol" <mrapol@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I am trying to learn more about VDGs that use external charge sources to
                    > create higher power output. I have a DC induction coil that I think would
                    > serve as a good source, but all the info I've found on the subject is very
                    > general, and I want more precise guidance. Can anyone refer me to a good
                    > text on the subject?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks,
                    > >
                    > > Paul
                    > >
                    >
                    > Hi Paul,
                    >
                    > I have tried using a negative Ion Generator with good results though the
                    > current is not all that high. I mainly use it to provide a charge when the
                    > humidity is too high. You could also try a voltage multiplier circuit such
                    > as from this link:
                    > http://www.rmcybern
                    > <http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_voltage_multipli
                    > er.htm> etics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_voltage_multiplier.htm
                    > By using larger capacitors you could increase the amount of current the
                    > circuit can supply.
                    > Just a thought...
                    > Todd
                    >
                  • Richard Linder
                    Hi Paul: In New England humidity is not as debilitating as in your neck of the woods. However, even here things can get kind of sticky in the summertime.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 17, 2010

                      Hi Paul:

                       

                      In New England humidity is not as debilitating as in your neck of the woods. However, even here things can get kind of sticky in the summertime.  While building my VDGs I ran a dehumidifier in my basement workshop and kept track of the RH so that results from any design changes from day to day were not biased by the weather. A few years ago I was privileged to run the VDG at the Boston Museum of Science. During that visit I had the opportunity to see the lower roller assembly in the basement. I was told by my host that the external power supply delivered around 2Kv. The spray points that Van DeGraaf used were steel phonograph needles commonly found in acoustical record players. The belt was about 36” wide and it appeared that the needle spacing was about 10”. Hope that info may be of some use.

                       

                      Dick

                       


                      From: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com [mailto: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of mrapol
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:12 AM
                      To: VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [VanDeGraaffGenerator] Re: Looking for information about high powered VDG

                       

                       

                      I certainly do take Prof. de Queiroz seriously--you might say I am a fan of his. I subscribe to his youtube videos, and I have learned a lot from his fabulous website.

                      I'm not trying to do anything spectacular, just understand this charge-spraying effect i have read about (though everything I have read up to this point has been very vague). My VDG is a small one I built from a Science First kit. I have made various improvements in the kit (better pickup brushes, using nylon hardware in place of metal, etc). Living in North Carolina I sometimes have problems with humidity, and I thought a modest charging device would improve that. Mostly I am just curious about a process I have read about but never seen done.

                      PBT

                      --- In VanDeGraaffGenerato r@yahoogroups. com, "Richard Linder" <linder@...> wrote:

                      >
                      > I would take Professor Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz remarks seriously. He
                      > points out that the regulation of a properly polarized DC source is
                      > critical. As I said before I had only frustration when experimenting with
                      > external supplies. Power supplies of this nature also present certain
                      > hazards. Unless you are familiar with the safety measures such as current
                      > limiting resistors and bleeder resistors you best be very careful as to
                      what
                      > you assemble. Personally, my hindsight tells me one is better off
                      directing
                      > efforts to understand and improving the electrostatics of the particular
                      VDG
                      > you have like optimizing belt speed, belt material, roller, material, and
                      > reducing current leakage. Unless these characteristics are optimized, I
                      > would think force feeding a VDG is futile. And, even if the VDG is
                      > optimized, there will always be a limit to the achievable terminal voltage
                      > for that particular design.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sorry to be so negative (pun intended) but it is hard to have a cheery
                      > outlook given the monsoons we have been experiencing in New
                      England .
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Dick Linder
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _____
                      >
                      > From: VanDeGraaffGenerato r@yahoogroups. com
                      > [mailto:VanDeGraaffGenerato r@yahoogroups. com]
                      On Behalf Of ToddA
                      > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 5:51 PM
                      > To: VanDeGraaffGenerato r@yahoogroups. com
                      > Subject: [VanDeGraaffGenerat or] Re: Looking for information about
                      high
                      > powered VDG
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In VanDeGraaffGenerato <mailto:VanDeGraaff Generator% 40yahoogroups. com>
                      > r@yahoogroups. com,
                      "mrapol" <mrapol@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I am trying to learn more about VDGs that use external charge sources
                      to
                      > create higher power output. I have a DC induction coil that I think would
                      > serve as a good source, but all the info I've found on the subject is very
                      > general, and I want more precise guidance. Can anyone refer me to a good
                      > text on the subject?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks,
                      > >
                      > > Paul
                      > >
                      >
                      > Hi Paul,
                      >
                      > I have tried using a negative Ion Generator with good results though the
                      > current is not all that high. I mainly use it to provide a charge when the
                      > humidity is too high. You could also try a voltage multiplier circuit such
                      > as from this link:
                      > http://www.rmcybern
                      > <
                      href="http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_voltage_multipli">http://www.rmcybern etics.com/ projects/ DIY_Devices/ homemade_ voltage_multipli
                      > er.htm> etics.com/projects/ DIY_Devices/ homemade_ voltage_multipli er.htm
                      > By using larger capacitors you could increase the amount of current the
                      > circuit can supply.
                      > Just a thought...
                      > Todd
                      >

                    • juke_family
                      I think I saw that DC Induction Coil on Ebay. If it was DC, why would you need external rectifiers (for a lifter) that he also sells? Or is it a Tesla coil?
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 4 10:51 AM
                        I think I saw that "DC Induction Coil" on Ebay. If it was DC, why would you need external rectifiers (for a lifter) that he also sells? Or is it a Tesla coil? The seller can't seem to make up his mind! That should be a clue. ;)

                        I'm curious on how you connected it to your Science First generator. Did you put an extra comb above the existing grounded comb or did you un-ground the existing one and connect it to that? I would like to experiment with that as well on the "bigger brother coil."

                        The stock polarity is positive and I would guess the the external supply should be the same. I think that supply voltage should be much lower though, since a lot of the problems previously posted are due to too high a voltage. The charging current of my "stock" small Science First generator(changed the bottom comb to brass shim) is 2-3 uA and discharges about once per second free running. I don't think that and external source would do much for me since it works very well as is but I usually don't have humidity problems like you do. Good luck.

                        James




                        --- In VanDeGraaffGenerator@yahoogroups.com, "mrapol" <mrapol@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I am trying to learn more about VDGs that use external charge sources to create higher power output. I have a DC induction coil that I think would serve as a good source, but all the info I've found on the subject is very general, and I want more precise guidance. Can anyone refer me to a good text on the subject?
                        >
                        > Thanks,
                        >
                        > Paul
                        >
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