Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Aluminium adhesion problem

Expand Messages
  • Attila
    Hi All, I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session. My aluminium coating doesn t pass the tape test for adhesion. My cleaning methode is: -First I
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 2, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi All,

      I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
      My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.

      My cleaning methode is:

      -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
      - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
      -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.

      After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.

      Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
      After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
      Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
      I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.

      After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)

      What could be wrong?

      Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
      Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?

      Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.

      Thank's for the suggestions.

      Attila
      The Hun
    • eosraptor1
      5 angstrom per second is 0.5 nanometers per second. That is 10 times to low a rate of deposition. I thought the deposition rate was supposed to be 5 to 20
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 2, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        5 angstrom per second is 0.5 nanometers per second. That is 10 times to low a rate of deposition.

        I thought the deposition rate was supposed to be 5 to 20 nanometers per second to ensure sufficient impact force on the surface. I don't think your tungsten is hot enough. James Lerch did the math once and told me that the impact speed of 1200 deg F aluminum steam is like 1 mile per second. If you don't get your coil hot enough you don't get hot enough aluminum steam ( what is technically coming off our tungsten emitters) .

        My old XMS-1 thickness controller displays evaporation rate in angstroms and I run between 40 and 50 angstroms per second. I pass the ( blue painters ) masking tape test most of the time.

        Spectrum Coatings claims to deposit at 500 angstroms per second ( 50 nm / sec ) . Paul is very good at this so I would think that what he does is pretty close to as good as you could get.

        From their website :

        Coating Process Overview:
        A brief description of our front surface mirror coating process will be discussed below.
        - Old coating is stripped by soaking in Ferric Chloride (very mild - does not react with glass).
        - Glass blank is now cleaned with acetone and lastly methanol.

        - Blank is loaded into coating fixture (which rotates during coating process for a very uniform deposition) the coating fixture is then loaded into the vacuum system facing down.
        -System is rough pumped, then the high vacuum valve is opened and the chamber is in a "high vacuum" state (better than 2x10-6 torr).
        - Quartz lamps are switched on to bake water off of the chamber walls.
        - System is left to pump until deposition pressure is reached.
        - The Substrate (Mirror) is prepared for deposition (proprietary process - NO ADHESION LAYERS ARE USED). This is very important. Most coating companies use some form of adhesion layer. This is unnecessary if the correct process has been developed. Adhesion layers are, more times than not, very difficult to remove, and, they must be removed before re coating the mirror
        - Aluminum is flash evaporated at very high deposition rates (~500-700Å/sec.). Flash evaporation is the best method for making highly reflective, no scattering aluminum and silver films.
        - Oxygen ion source is switched on just as SiO (silicon monoxide) deposition starts. As the SiO film grows it is fully oxidized by the reactive oxygen ion beam which transforms the SiO into a hard durable layer of Quartz (SiO2). No optical interference of the quartz thin film through the visible to the UV. This method is the only method proven to produce pure quartz. Methods without an efficient ion source, even using very high substrate temperature (higher than 270°C) produce what is know as SiOx, which has varying index a of refraction and hardness problems. TiO2 films are produced in the same manner for the EAL and MaxR coatings.




        From: VacuumX@yahoogroups.com [mailto:VacuumX@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Attila
        Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 10:50 AM
        To: VacuumX@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [VacuumX] Aluminium adhesion problem


        Hi All,

        I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
        My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.

        My cleaning methode is:

        -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
        - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
        -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.

        After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.

        Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
        After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
        Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
        I evaporate aluminum using e-beam at 5 Angstrom per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.

        After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanced does not matter)

        What could be wrong?

        Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
        Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?

        Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.

        Thank's for the suggestions.

        Attila
        The Hun
      • Vladimir Chutko
        Hi Attila, 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s. 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 2, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Attila,

          1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
          evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
          2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
          than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
          below 10-5 torr.
          3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.

          Best regards,

          Vladimir

          On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
          > Hi All,
          >
          > I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
          > My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
          >
          > My cleaning methode is:
          >
          > -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
          > - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
          > -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
          >
          > After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
          >
          > Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
          > After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
          > Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
          > I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
          >
          > After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
          >
          > What could be wrong?
          >
          > Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
          > Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
          >
          > Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
          >
          > Thank's for the suggestions.
          >
          > Attila
          > The Hun
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Attila
          Hi Vladimir! Well thank you for the advises! Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec) The adhesion is much better, but still
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 8, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Vladimir!

            Well thank you for the advises!

            Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
            The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.

            Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?


            Best regards

            Attila

            --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko <chutko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Attila,
            >
            > 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
            > evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
            > 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
            > than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
            > below 10-5 torr.
            > 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
            >
            > Best regards,
            >
            > Vladimir
            >
            > On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
            > > Hi All,
            > >
            > > I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
            > > My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
            > >
            > > My cleaning methode is:
            > >
            > > -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
            > > - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
            > > -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
            > >
            > > After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
            > >
            > > Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
            > > After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
            > > Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
            > > I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
            > >
            > > After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
            > >
            > > What could be wrong?
            > >
            > > Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
            > > Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
            > >
            > > Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
            > >
            > > Thank's for the suggestions.
            > >
            > > Attila
            > > The Hun
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Andrew Aurigema
            I got one more thing to add. I have a dual diff pump with Dow 704 oil in it and a really really really tiny leak in the left pump. This puts a tiny flow of
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 8, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              I got one more thing to add.  I have a dual diff pump with Dow 704 oil in it and a really really really tiny leak in the left pump.  This puts a tiny flow of air into the left pump that results in a carry of vapor into the tank and eventually into my right diff pump ( then to dump ).  All this said, I also failed the tape test for a long time.  I believe it was because of the high voltage cleaning system.

              The HV plasma was incinerating the oil vapor and putting a kind of soot on the surfaces.  When I stopped using the HV cleaning system I stopped having the soot problem and my coatings started sticking way better. 

              You may not have the leak like I do, but if there is any ( and I mean any ) hydrocarbons in your chamber, then when you fire up your HV you are going to make soot.  You may not see it but it is there.  That may ( only guessing here )  be what is adding to the adhesion issue. 

              The deeper the vacuum the farther away the emitters can be.  I suggest moving the emitters closer to the mirror.  My bud ( that never calls me anymore )  James Lerch has his emitters about 3" from the mirror surface.  He has awesome adhesion.  I have to have my emitters no farther than 18" or my coatings will come right off. 

              I find that a wipe with really really thin slurry of CeO and a damp soft cloth does wonders to get a surface hungry for aluminum ice.  


              Drew in soggy Florida.

              ps.......... totally unrelated......... I got the 1000 amp transformer hooked up to the tantalum box finally and it is under the XMS-1 thickness monitor control.   I am going to try for over-coat again this weekend. 


              -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Attila <schneyolo@...> wrote:
               

              Hi Vladimir!

              Well thank you for the advises!

              Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
              The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.

              Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?

              Best regards

              Attila

              --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko <chutko@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Attila,
              >
              > 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
              > evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
              > 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
              > than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
              > below 10-5 torr.
              > 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > Vladimir
              >
              > On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
              > > Hi All,
              > >
              > > I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
              > > My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
              > >
              > > My cleaning methode is:
              > >
              > > -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
              > > - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
              > > -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
              > >
              > > After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
              > >
              > > Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
              > > After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
              > > Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
              > > I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
              > >
              > > After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
              > >
              > > What could be wrong?
              > >
              > > Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
              > > Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
              > >
              > > Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
              > >
              > > Thank's for the suggestions.
              > >
              > > Attila
              > > The Hun
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >


            • Thomas Janstrom
              HI Drew, Glad to hear you re making progress! Better get that leak sorted, have you thought about a drop of shellac to fill/seal it? Was the done thing back in
              Message 6 of 13 , Sep 8, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                HI Drew,

                Glad to hear you're making progress!

                Better get that leak sorted, have you thought about a drop of shellac to fill/seal it? Was the done thing back in the day to find and seal tiny leaks all in the one step....

                Attila: I'd be looking at intercepting the back streaming, even just a room temp baffle plate or two (doughnut followed by a disc will do) can make a big difference. Downside is it will slow your pump down some.

                Thomas.

                On 9/09/2011 6:02 AM, Andrew Aurigema wrote:  

                I got one more thing to add.  I have a dual diff pump with Dow 704 oil in it and a really really really tiny leak in the left pump.  This puts a tiny flow of air into the left pump that results in a carry of vapor into the tank and eventually into my right diff pump ( then to dump ).  All this said, I also failed the tape test for a long time.  I believe it was because of the high voltage cleaning system.

                The HV plasma was incinerating the oil vapor and putting a kind of soot on the surfaces.  When I stopped using the HV cleaning system I stopped having the soot problem and my coatings started sticking way better. 

                You may not have the leak like I do, but if there is any ( and I mean any ) hydrocarbons in your chamber, then when you fire up your HV you are going to make soot.  You may not see it but it is there.  That may ( only guessing here )  be what is adding to the adhesion issue. 

                The deeper the vacuum the farther away the emitters can be.  I suggest moving the emitters closer to the mirror.  My bud ( that never calls me anymore )  James Lerch has his emitters about 3" from the mirror surface.  He has awesome adhesion.  I have to have my emitters no farther than 18" or my coatings will come right off. 

                I find that a wipe with really really thin slurry of CeO and a damp soft cloth does wonders to get a surface hungry for aluminum ice.  


                Drew in soggy Florida.

                ps.......... totally unrelated......... I got the 1000 amp transformer hooked up to the tantalum box finally and it is under the XMS-1 thickness monitor control.   I am going to try for over-coat again this weekend. 


                -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                On Thu, Sep 8, 2011 at 3:30 PM, Attila <schneyolo@...> wrote:
                 

                Hi Vladimir!

                Well thank you for the advises!

                Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
                The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.

                Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?

                Best regards

                Attila


              • Vladimir Chutko
                Hi Attila, 230 A/s - in my opinion it is too much..... Anyway I suppose that bad local adhesion is because of a bad cleaning. If there would be oil
                Message 7 of 13 , Sep 8, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Attila,

                  230 A/s - in my opinion it is too much.....

                  Anyway I suppose that bad local adhesion is because of a bad cleaning.
                  If there would be oil backstreaming, oil vapor must cover a whole
                  surface and there shouldn't be areas with a good adhesion. But things
                  happen...

                  140 nm is not a problem. Doing Al mirrors I deposit 100 nm with no
                  problems. Do you pre-clean your substrate with ion beam?

                  What is your vacuum? For good layer it must be as low as possible, at
                  least less than (1-2)x10-5 torr.

                  Try to decrease deposition rate to 40 - 60 A/s and see what happen.
                  Maybe it helps.

                  Best regards,

                  Vladimir


                  On 9/8/2011 12:30 PM, Attila wrote:
                  > Hi Vladimir!
                  >
                  > Well thank you for the advises!
                  >
                  > Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
                  > The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.
                  >
                  > Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?
                  >
                  >
                  > Best regards
                  >
                  > Attila
                  >
                  > --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@...> wrote:
                  >> Hi Attila,
                  >>
                  >> 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
                  >> evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
                  >> 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
                  >> than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
                  >> below 10-5 torr.
                  >> 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
                  >>
                  >> Best regards,
                  >>
                  >> Vladimir
                  >>
                  >> On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
                  >>> Hi All,
                  >>>
                  >>> I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
                  >>> My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
                  >>>
                  >>> My cleaning methode is:
                  >>>
                  >>> -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
                  >>> - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
                  >>> -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
                  >>>
                  >>> After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
                  >>>
                  >>> Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
                  >>> After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
                  >>> Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
                  >>> I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
                  >>>
                  >>> After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
                  >>>
                  >>> What could be wrong?
                  >>>
                  >>> Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
                  >>> Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
                  >>>
                  >>> Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
                  >>>
                  >>> Thank's for the suggestions.
                  >>>
                  >>> Attila
                  >>> The Hun
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> ------------------------------------
                  >>>
                  >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Attila
                  Hi ! Well, actually I even don t think if there is as an oil backstreaming,because my DP has a water cooled cold cap and water cooled cold trap too, but I had
                  Message 8 of 13 , Sep 8, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi !

                    Well, actually I even don't think if there is as an oil backstreaming,because my DP has a water cooled cold cap and water cooled cold trap too, but I had to put some lubricant into my chamber. Because, the planetary substrate holder has two ball bearings in the chamber and these needs lubricant. I used a mix of high vacuum grease and some only drops of diffoil 20 ultra. But it is not really good.
                    I have to try another lubricant, just I dont know what...

                    My emitter for the glow discharge is about 20mm from the surface last time, before that was 250mm.

                    The source and substrate distance is 330mm. My best vacuum was ever 2x10-5 torr, this is the system best.

                    Unfortunatelly the ion source does not work yet. First I have to change my diffusion pump, because the recent pumping speed is too low, it is not enough to operate the ion source too.

                    Best regards,

                    Attila

                    --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko <chutko@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Attila,
                    >
                    > 230 A/s - in my opinion it is too much.....
                    >
                    > Anyway I suppose that bad local adhesion is because of a bad cleaning.
                    > If there would be oil backstreaming, oil vapor must cover a whole
                    > surface and there shouldn't be areas with a good adhesion. But things
                    > happen...
                    >
                    > 140 nm is not a problem. Doing Al mirrors I deposit 100 nm with no
                    > problems. Do you pre-clean your substrate with ion beam?
                    >
                    > What is your vacuum? For good layer it must be as low as possible, at
                    > least less than (1-2)x10-5 torr.
                    >
                    > Try to decrease deposition rate to 40 - 60 A/s and see what happen.
                    > Maybe it helps.
                    >
                    > Best regards,
                    >
                    > Vladimir
                    >
                    >
                    > On 9/8/2011 12:30 PM, Attila wrote:
                    > > Hi Vladimir!
                    > >
                    > > Well thank you for the advises!
                    > >
                    > > Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
                    > > The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.
                    > >
                    > > Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Best regards
                    > >
                    > > Attila
                    > >
                    > > --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                    > >> Hi Attila,
                    > >>
                    > >> 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
                    > >> evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
                    > >> 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
                    > >> than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
                    > >> below 10-5 torr.
                    > >> 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
                    > >>
                    > >> Best regards,
                    > >>
                    > >> Vladimir
                    > >>
                    > >> On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
                    > >>> Hi All,
                    > >>>
                    > >>> I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
                    > >>> My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> My cleaning methode is:
                    > >>>
                    > >>> -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
                    > >>> - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
                    > >>> -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
                    > >>> After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
                    > >>> Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
                    > >>> I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
                    > >>>
                    > >>> What could be wrong?
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
                    > >>> Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Thank's for the suggestions.
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Attila
                    > >>> The Hun
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>> ------------------------------------
                    > >>>
                    > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Attila
                    Hi! One more thing. Before I put the new planetray system into my chamber, I had have an another where was no bearings and no lubrication. And the adhesion was
                    Message 9 of 13 , Sep 9, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi!

                      One more thing. Before I put the new planetray system into my chamber, I had
                      have an another where was no bearings and no lubrication. And the adhesion was
                      bad too. So I am not sure the adhesion issue is the cause of the lubrication.

                      Best regards

                      Attila

                      --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko <chutko@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Attila,
                      >
                      > 230 A/s - in my opinion it is too much.....
                      >
                      > Anyway I suppose that bad local adhesion is because of a bad cleaning.
                      > If there would be oil backstreaming, oil vapor must cover a whole
                      > surface and there shouldn't be areas with a good adhesion. But things
                      > happen...
                      >
                      > 140 nm is not a problem. Doing Al mirrors I deposit 100 nm with no
                      > problems. Do you pre-clean your substrate with ion beam?
                      >
                      > What is your vacuum? For good layer it must be as low as possible, at
                      > least less than (1-2)x10-5 torr.
                      >
                      > Try to decrease deposition rate to 40 - 60 A/s and see what happen.
                      > Maybe it helps.
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > Vladimir
                      >
                      >
                      > On 9/8/2011 12:30 PM, Attila wrote:
                      > > Hi Vladimir!
                      > >
                      > > Well thank you for the advises!
                      > >
                      > > Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
                      > > The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Best regards
                      > >
                      > > Attila
                      > >
                      > > --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                      > >> Hi Attila,
                      > >>
                      > >> 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
                      > >> evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
                      > >> 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
                      > >> than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
                      > >> below 10-5 torr.
                      > >> 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
                      > >>
                      > >> Best regards,
                      > >>
                      > >> Vladimir
                      > >>
                      > >> On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
                      > >>> Hi All,
                      > >>>
                      > >>> I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
                      > >>> My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> My cleaning methode is:
                      > >>>
                      > >>> -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
                      > >>> - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
                      > >>> -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
                      > >>> After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
                      > >>> Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
                      > >>> I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
                      > >>>
                      > >>> What could be wrong?
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
                      > >>> Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Thank's for the suggestions.
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Attila
                      > >>> The Hun
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>> ------------------------------------
                      > >>>
                      > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ------------------------------------
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Vladimir Chutko
                      Good vacuum lubricant - MoS2. The lubricant is a mix of MoS2 black powder and acetone. Bearings look very dirty but works. There are also a lot of expensive
                      Message 10 of 13 , Sep 9, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Good vacuum lubricant - MoS2. The lubricant is a mix of MoS2 black
                        powder and acetone. Bearings look very dirty but works. There are also a
                        lot of expensive special lubricants, but we used to use this one.
                        Graphite powder also works.

                        I don't think your glow discharge works good if the distance between
                        cathode and substrate is only 20 mm. It should be at least 100-150 mm
                        (and 250-300 mm is fine) at pressure in about 1 torr range. Of course,
                        there should be negative potential on cathode... Some people power it
                        with positive potential, it is wrong. Cathode must be plane, opened only
                        to substrate and shielded at the back side. So glow discharge must be
                        concentrated between cathode and substrate holder. Wrong glow discharge
                        may contaminate substrate surface.

                        BR,

                        Vladimir


                        On 9/8/2011 11:41 PM, Attila wrote:
                        > Hi !
                        >
                        > Well, actually I even don't think if there is as an oil backstreaming,because my DP has a water cooled cold cap and water cooled cold trap too, but I had to put some lubricant into my chamber. Because, the planetary substrate holder has two ball bearings in the chamber and these needs lubricant. I used a mix of high vacuum grease and some only drops of diffoil 20 ultra. But it is not really good.
                        > I have to try another lubricant, just I dont know what...
                        >
                        > My emitter for the glow discharge is about 20mm from the surface last time, before that was 250mm.
                        >
                        > The source and substrate distance is 330mm. My best vacuum was ever 2x10-5 torr, this is the system best.
                        >
                        > Unfortunatelly the ion source does not work yet. First I have to change my diffusion pump, because the recent pumping speed is too low, it is not enough to operate the ion source too.
                        >
                        > Best regards,
                        >
                        > Attila
                        >
                        > --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@...> wrote:
                        >> Hi Attila,
                        >>
                        >> 230 A/s - in my opinion it is too much.....
                        >>
                        >> Anyway I suppose that bad local adhesion is because of a bad cleaning.
                        >> If there would be oil backstreaming, oil vapor must cover a whole
                        >> surface and there shouldn't be areas with a good adhesion. But things
                        >> happen...
                        >>
                        >> 140 nm is not a problem. Doing Al mirrors I deposit 100 nm with no
                        >> problems. Do you pre-clean your substrate with ion beam?
                        >>
                        >> What is your vacuum? For good layer it must be as low as possible, at
                        >> least less than (1-2)x10-5 torr.
                        >>
                        >> Try to decrease deposition rate to 40 - 60 A/s and see what happen.
                        >> Maybe it helps.
                        >>
                        >> Best regards,
                        >>
                        >> Vladimir
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> On 9/8/2011 12:30 PM, Attila wrote:
                        >>> Hi Vladimir!
                        >>>
                        >>> Well thank you for the advises!
                        >>>
                        >>> Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
                        >>> The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.
                        >>>
                        >>> Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Best regards
                        >>>
                        >>> Attila
                        >>>
                        >>> --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                        >>>> Hi Attila,
                        >>>>
                        >>>> 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
                        >>>> evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
                        >>>> 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
                        >>>> than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
                        >>>> below 10-5 torr.
                        >>>> 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Best regards,
                        >>>>
                        >>>> Vladimir
                        >>>>
                        >>>> On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
                        >>>>> Hi All,
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
                        >>>>> My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> My cleaning methode is:
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
                        >>>>> - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
                        >>>>> -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
                        >>>>> After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
                        >>>>> Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
                        >>>>> I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> What could be wrong?
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
                        >>>>> Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Thank's for the suggestions.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Attila
                        >>>>> The Hun
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> ------------------------------------
                        >>>
                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Attila
                        Hi Vladimir! Well the graphite powder is no problem, I can make it! But how can I shield the glow discharge cathode? How big should be the area of the cathode?
                        Message 11 of 13 , Sep 9, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Vladimir!

                          Well the graphite powder is no problem, I can make it!

                          But how can I shield the glow discharge cathode? How big should be the area of the cathode?

                          Best regards
                          Attila

                          --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko <chutko@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Good vacuum lubricant - MoS2. The lubricant is a mix of MoS2 black
                          > powder and acetone. Bearings look very dirty but works. There are also a
                          > lot of expensive special lubricants, but we used to use this one.
                          > Graphite powder also works.
                          >
                          > I don't think your glow discharge works good if the distance between
                          > cathode and substrate is only 20 mm. It should be at least 100-150 mm
                          > (and 250-300 mm is fine) at pressure in about 1 torr range. Of course,
                          > there should be negative potential on cathode... Some people power it
                          > with positive potential, it is wrong. Cathode must be plane, opened only
                          > to substrate and shielded at the back side. So glow discharge must be
                          > concentrated between cathode and substrate holder. Wrong glow discharge
                          > may contaminate substrate surface.
                          >
                          > BR,
                          >
                          > Vladimir
                          >
                          >
                          > On 9/8/2011 11:41 PM, Attila wrote:
                          > > Hi !
                          > >
                          > > Well, actually I even don't think if there is as an oil backstreaming,because my DP has a water cooled cold cap and water cooled cold trap too, but I had to put some lubricant into my chamber. Because, the planetary substrate holder has two ball bearings in the chamber and these needs lubricant. I used a mix of high vacuum grease and some only drops of diffoil 20 ultra. But it is not really good.
                          > > I have to try another lubricant, just I dont know what...
                          > >
                          > > My emitter for the glow discharge is about 20mm from the surface last time, before that was 250mm.
                          > >
                          > > The source and substrate distance is 330mm. My best vacuum was ever 2x10-5 torr, this is the system best.
                          > >
                          > > Unfortunatelly the ion source does not work yet. First I have to change my diffusion pump, because the recent pumping speed is too low, it is not enough to operate the ion source too.
                          > >
                          > > Best regards,
                          > >
                          > > Attila
                          > >
                          > > --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                          > >> Hi Attila,
                          > >>
                          > >> 230 A/s - in my opinion it is too much.....
                          > >>
                          > >> Anyway I suppose that bad local adhesion is because of a bad cleaning.
                          > >> If there would be oil backstreaming, oil vapor must cover a whole
                          > >> surface and there shouldn't be areas with a good adhesion. But things
                          > >> happen...
                          > >>
                          > >> 140 nm is not a problem. Doing Al mirrors I deposit 100 nm with no
                          > >> problems. Do you pre-clean your substrate with ion beam?
                          > >>
                          > >> What is your vacuum? For good layer it must be as low as possible, at
                          > >> least less than (1-2)x10-5 torr.
                          > >>
                          > >> Try to decrease deposition rate to 40 - 60 A/s and see what happen.
                          > >> Maybe it helps.
                          > >>
                          > >> Best regards,
                          > >>
                          > >> Vladimir
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >> On 9/8/2011 12:30 PM, Attila wrote:
                          > >>> Hi Vladimir!
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Well thank you for the advises!
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
                          > >>> The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Best regards
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Attila
                          > >>>
                          > >>> --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                          > >>>> Hi Attila,
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
                          > >>>> evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
                          > >>>> 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
                          > >>>> than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
                          > >>>> below 10-5 torr.
                          > >>>> 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> Best regards,
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> Vladimir
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>> On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
                          > >>>>> Hi All,
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
                          > >>>>> My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> My cleaning methode is:
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
                          > >>>>> - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
                          > >>>>> -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
                          > >>>>> After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
                          > >>>>> Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
                          > >>>>> I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> What could be wrong?
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
                          > >>>>> Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> Thank's for the suggestions.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> Attila
                          > >>>>> The Hun
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> ------------------------------------
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ------------------------------------
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • Vladimir Chutko
                          Hi Attila, Please see attached paper - I done it a couple years ago for students. BR Vladimir
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 9, 2011
                          • 1 Attachment
                          • 361 KB
                          Hi Attila,

                          Please see attached paper - I done it a couple years ago for students.

                          BR

                          Vladimir

                          On 9/9/2011 2:38 AM, Attila wrote:
                          > Hi Vladimir!
                          >
                          > Well the graphite powder is no problem, I can make it!
                          >
                          > But how can I shield the glow discharge cathode? How big should be the area of the cathode?
                          >
                          > Best regards
                          > Attila
                          >
                          > --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@...> wrote:
                          >> Good vacuum lubricant - MoS2. The lubricant is a mix of MoS2 black
                          >> powder and acetone. Bearings look very dirty but works. There are also a
                          >> lot of expensive special lubricants, but we used to use this one.
                          >> Graphite powder also works.
                          >>
                          >> I don't think your glow discharge works good if the distance between
                          >> cathode and substrate is only 20 mm. It should be at least 100-150 mm
                          >> (and 250-300 mm is fine) at pressure in about 1 torr range. Of course,
                          >> there should be negative potential on cathode... Some people power it
                          >> with positive potential, it is wrong. Cathode must be plane, opened only
                          >> to substrate and shielded at the back side. So glow discharge must be
                          >> concentrated between cathode and substrate holder. Wrong glow discharge
                          >> may contaminate substrate surface.
                          >>
                          >> BR,
                          >>
                          >> Vladimir
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> On 9/8/2011 11:41 PM, Attila wrote:
                          >>> Hi !
                          >>>
                          >>> Well, actually I even don't think if there is as an oil backstreaming,because my DP has a water cooled cold cap and water cooled cold trap too, but I had to put some lubricant into my chamber. Because, the planetary substrate holder has two ball bearings in the chamber and these needs lubricant. I used a mix of high vacuum grease and some only drops of diffoil 20 ultra. But it is not really good.
                          >>> I have to try another lubricant, just I dont know what...
                          >>>
                          >>> My emitter for the glow discharge is about 20mm from the surface last time, before that was 250mm.
                          >>>
                          >>> The source and substrate distance is 330mm. My best vacuum was ever 2x10-5 torr, this is the system best.
                          >>>
                          >>> Unfortunatelly the ion source does not work yet. First I have to change my diffusion pump, because the recent pumping speed is too low, it is not enough to operate the ion source too.
                          >>>
                          >>> Best regards,
                          >>>
                          >>> Attila
                          >>>
                          >>> --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                          >>>> Hi Attila,
                          >>>>
                          >>>> 230 A/s - in my opinion it is too much.....
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Anyway I suppose that bad local adhesion is because of a bad cleaning.
                          >>>> If there would be oil backstreaming, oil vapor must cover a whole
                          >>>> surface and there shouldn't be areas with a good adhesion. But things
                          >>>> happen...
                          >>>>
                          >>>> 140 nm is not a problem. Doing Al mirrors I deposit 100 nm with no
                          >>>> problems. Do you pre-clean your substrate with ion beam?
                          >>>>
                          >>>> What is your vacuum? For good layer it must be as low as possible, at
                          >>>> least less than (1-2)x10-5 torr.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Try to decrease deposition rate to 40 - 60 A/s and see what happen.
                          >>>> Maybe it helps.
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Best regards,
                          >>>>
                          >>>> Vladimir
                          >>>>
                          >>>>
                          >>>> On 9/8/2011 12:30 PM, Attila wrote:
                          >>>>> Hi Vladimir!
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Well thank you for the advises!
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
                          >>>>> The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Best regards
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Attila
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                          >>>>>> Hi Attila,
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
                          >>>>>> evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
                          >>>>>> 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
                          >>>>>> than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
                          >>>>>> below 10-5 torr.
                          >>>>>> 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Best regards,
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> Vladimir
                          >>>>>>
                          >>>>>> On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
                          >>>>>>> Hi All,
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
                          >>>>>>> My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> My cleaning methode is:
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
                          >>>>>>> - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
                          >>>>>>> -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
                          >>>>>>> After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
                          >>>>>>> Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
                          >>>>>>> I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> What could be wrong?
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
                          >>>>>>> Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Thank's for the suggestions.
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Attila
                          >>>>>>> The Hun
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>> ------------------------------------
                          >>>
                          >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >>>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Attila
                          Hi Vladimir! Thank s it looks very nice! It try these things and I let you know. BR Attila
                          Message 13 of 13 , Sep 9, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Vladimir!

                            Thank's it looks very nice! It try these things and I let you know.

                            BR

                            Attila

                            --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko <chutko@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Attila,
                            >
                            > Please see attached paper - I done it a couple years ago for students.
                            >
                            > BR
                            >
                            > Vladimir
                            >
                            > On 9/9/2011 2:38 AM, Attila wrote:
                            > > Hi Vladimir!
                            > >
                            > > Well the graphite powder is no problem, I can make it!
                            > >
                            > > But how can I shield the glow discharge cathode? How big should be the area of the cathode?
                            > >
                            > > Best regards
                            > > Attila
                            > >
                            > > --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                            > >> Good vacuum lubricant - MoS2. The lubricant is a mix of MoS2 black
                            > >> powder and acetone. Bearings look very dirty but works. There are also a
                            > >> lot of expensive special lubricants, but we used to use this one.
                            > >> Graphite powder also works.
                            > >>
                            > >> I don't think your glow discharge works good if the distance between
                            > >> cathode and substrate is only 20 mm. It should be at least 100-150 mm
                            > >> (and 250-300 mm is fine) at pressure in about 1 torr range. Of course,
                            > >> there should be negative potential on cathode... Some people power it
                            > >> with positive potential, it is wrong. Cathode must be plane, opened only
                            > >> to substrate and shielded at the back side. So glow discharge must be
                            > >> concentrated between cathode and substrate holder. Wrong glow discharge
                            > >> may contaminate substrate surface.
                            > >>
                            > >> BR,
                            > >>
                            > >> Vladimir
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> On 9/8/2011 11:41 PM, Attila wrote:
                            > >>> Hi !
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Well, actually I even don't think if there is as an oil backstreaming,because my DP has a water cooled cold cap and water cooled cold trap too, but I had to put some lubricant into my chamber. Because, the planetary substrate holder has two ball bearings in the chamber and these needs lubricant. I used a mix of high vacuum grease and some only drops of diffoil 20 ultra. But it is not really good.
                            > >>> I have to try another lubricant, just I dont know what...
                            > >>>
                            > >>> My emitter for the glow discharge is about 20mm from the surface last time, before that was 250mm.
                            > >>>
                            > >>> The source and substrate distance is 330mm. My best vacuum was ever 2x10-5 torr, this is the system best.
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Unfortunatelly the ion source does not work yet. First I have to change my diffusion pump, because the recent pumping speed is too low, it is not enough to operate the ion source too.
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Best regards,
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Attila
                            > >>>
                            > >>> --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                            > >>>> Hi Attila,
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> 230 A/s - in my opinion it is too much.....
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Anyway I suppose that bad local adhesion is because of a bad cleaning.
                            > >>>> If there would be oil backstreaming, oil vapor must cover a whole
                            > >>>> surface and there shouldn't be areas with a good adhesion. But things
                            > >>>> happen...
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> 140 nm is not a problem. Doing Al mirrors I deposit 100 nm with no
                            > >>>> problems. Do you pre-clean your substrate with ion beam?
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> What is your vacuum? For good layer it must be as low as possible, at
                            > >>>> least less than (1-2)x10-5 torr.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Try to decrease deposition rate to 40 - 60 A/s and see what happen.
                            > >>>> Maybe it helps.
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Best regards,
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> Vladimir
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>>
                            > >>>> On 9/8/2011 12:30 PM, Attila wrote:
                            > >>>>> Hi Vladimir!
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Well thank you for the advises!
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Yesterday I increased the evaporation rate up to 230 Anström/sec(23nm/sec)
                            > >>>>> The adhesion is much better, but still not passing the tape test.Parts of the layer peals off another parts don't.
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Maybe the layer is too thick, because it is 140nm thick. Maybe my precleaning methode is not good. Or could that cause an oil backstreaming from my diffusion pump?
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Best regards
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Attila
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> --- In VacuumX@yahoogroups.com, Vladimir Chutko<chutko@> wrote:
                            > >>>>>> Hi Attila,
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> 1. Very low evaporation rate. For Al it should be at least tens A/s. I
                            > >>>>>> evaporate Al on a cold substrate at 40 A/s.
                            > >>>>>> 2. 4x10-5 torr is not very good for Al. Actually than vacuum is better,
                            > >>>>>> than Al coating is better. It is recommended to evaporate Al at pressure
                            > >>>>>> below 10-5 torr.
                            > >>>>>> 3. Cr underlayer strongly improves adhesion.
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> Best regards,
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> Vladimir
                            > >>>>>>
                            > >>>>>> On 9/2/2011 7:49 AM, Attila wrote:
                            > >>>>>>> Hi All,
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> I ran into a trouble during my evaporation session.
                            > >>>>>>> My aluminium coating doesn't pass the tape test for adhesion.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> My cleaning methode is:
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> -First I clean the mirror with isopropanol
                            > >>>>>>> - Next I use Balzers substrate cleaner no.1.
                            > >>>>>>> -Then the Balzers substrate cleaner no.2 so as the manual said.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> After this I immediately put the mirror into the chamber and evacuate to 0.02-0.03 Torr.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Then I let run Argon into the chamber and glow discharge for 15 min.
                            > >>>>>>> After this I go down to 6x10-5 Torr, and again let the Argon into the chamber to 0.1 Torr and low discharge at 10Kv and 20mA for another 15 min.
                            > >>>>>>> Then evacuate as deep as possible, last time 4x10-5 Torr.
                            > >>>>>>> I evaporate aluminium using e-beam at 5 Angström per sec. Meantime the optics are turned by the planetary holder.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> After this I can let the optic so or make an overcoat of Sio2 or Sio2 and Tio2, doesn't matter the adhesion does not pass the test(bare alu, protected or enhanched does not matter)
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> What could be wrong?
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Or should I apply 10nm of chromium as an adhesive layer?
                            > >>>>>>> Just I don't know later how can I strip off the chromium?
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Also does not matter the glass type of the substrate.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Thank's for the suggestions.
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Attila
                            > >>>>>>> The Hun
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> ------------------------------------
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>> ------------------------------------
                            > >>>
                            > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------------------
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.