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Re: [VLF_Group] LORAN boards

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  • Dave
    Thanks Zim...that works. Dave ... From: Graeme Zimmer To: Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 2:09 AM Subject:
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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      Thanks Zim...that works.

      Dave

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Graeme Zimmer" <gzimmer@...>
      To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 2:09 AM
      Subject: Re: [VLF_Group] LORAN boards


      >
      > > I cannot open this link at the moment...? (
      > > ourworld.cs.com/Timatmit/Loran.jpg )
      >
      > Try http://ourworld.cs.com/Timatmit/Loran.jpg
      >
      >
      > ................ Zim
      >
      >
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    • Renato Romero
      Hi to everybody, do you have any idea about what this signal can be? http://www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html (I put some images on a temporary www.vlf.it directory)
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1, 2002
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        Hi to everybody,
        do you have any idea about what this signal can be?
        http://www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html
        (I put some images on a temporary www.vlf.it directory)

        Bye, Renato Romero
      • Trond Jacobsen
        Hello Renato and VLF group Just visited your temp pages, - very interesting spectrograms. There is only one facility as I know of, that are capable of
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 2, 2002
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          Hello Renato and VLF group

          Just visited your temp pages, - very interesting spectrograms.

          There is only one facility as I know of, that are capable of transmissions in that frequency range. The Russian experimental ULF transmitter facility on the Kola peninsula ( no, not the Russian Navy ELF transmitter "Zevs" ).

          See copy of abstract below.

          Best regards

          Trond

          .............................................................................................................
          ABSTRACT OF:

          Paper number p2-10

          Title: First geophysical ULF (0.1-10 Hz) ground-based facility

          Author: P.P.Belyaev L.A.Sobchakov A.V.Vasiljev S.V.Polyakov M.N.Yakunin S.V.Isaev A.G.Litvak A.I.Smirnov N.L.Astakhova

          Presented by: Pavel P. Belyaev, Radiophysical Research Institute, Nizhny Novgorod

          Abstract: Russian Institute of Powerful Radiostructures (RIPR), St.-Petersburg, Russia, Radiophysical Research Institute (NIRFI) and Institute of Applied Physics of Russian Academy of Science (IAP RAS), both N.Novgorod, Russia created the easy flexible ULF facility for geophysical applications. The first testing of this facility, located on the Kola Peninsula, Russia, the region with very small conductivity, was carried out during July 1998. The ULF facility consists of 108-km powerline grounded at both ends with using of river power station buildings (Kola peninsula powerline Company). The portable 50 kW amplifier designed by RIPR provides a radiation current of 60-100 A in the line. The crust conductivity under powerline achieves the value of 10-4 - 5*10-5 mho/m. The measurements of far field were carried out on the distances 500 (RIPR) and 1500 km (NIRFI) for magnetic and electric field components. The near magnetic field measurements were carried out by Finnish scientific groups from University of Oulu and Sodankjula Laboratory. Three kinds of radiating cycles were realized for day, evening, and night and morning conditions separately. The first one was devoted to broadband overview of signal behaviour in the frequency range 0.6-12 Hz. The second was devoted to investigations of ionospheric resonance properties in the frequency range 2-3 Hz and involved the variation of signal frequency with small step equaled to 0.1 Hz. During the third type of cycle the facility operated on the same signal frequency (4.8, 10 or 12 Hz) over two hour periods. The good signal/noise ratio allows us to obtain valid characteristics of ULF signals. The measured amplitude-frequency dependence (proportional to f -1/2 , where f - frequency in Hz), polarization and space distribution (R-2 , R-distance in km) of ULF fields were in line with theory predictions for daytime conditions. For the nighttime one, dramatic discrepancy was observed due to the influence of anisotropy of ionosphere and its temporal variations. We hope that initial results presented here for the ULF range and recent successful Siple station VLF (1-12 kHz) Project (USA, Stanford) will activate scientific community to collaborate in the development of magnetospheric and ionospheric investigations, as well as of the Earth's crust.



          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Renato Romero <openlab@...>
          To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 12:22 AM
          Subject: [VLF_Group] Strange signal below 6 Hz


          > Hi to everybody,
          > do you have any idea about what this signal can be?
          > http://www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html
          > (I put some images on a temporary www.vlf.it directory)
          >
          > Bye, Renato Romero
          >
          >
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          >
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        • colin mackenzie
          When at a loss, ask,so Renato, what do you think that the signal was? http://www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html I am new here and have much to learn I m curios
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 2, 2002
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            When at a loss, ask,so Renato, what do you think that
            the signal was? http://www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html
            I am new here and have much to learn
            I'm curios though.all I can say is that it looks man
            made.


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          • colin mackenzie
            In trying to understand this and it is new to me, are schumann resonances, natural ionospheric resonances which are pumped around the inonosphere by the
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 2, 2002
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              In trying to understand this and it is new to me,
              are schumann resonances, natural ionospheric
              resonances which are pumped around the inonosphere by
              the changes in the atmospheric pressure raising and
              lowering when the earth enters shaddow at the grey
              line, is this a fair way of conceptualising this?
              or is as usual a simple yes/ no. not enough as usual?
              no elaborate answer needed. Tnx.




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            • Graeme Zimmer
              Hi Colin, ... No. Nothing to do with atmospheric presuure... Are standing waves caused by reflections in the spherical duct between the earths surface and the
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 2, 2002
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                Hi Colin,

                > In trying to understand this and it is new to me,
                > are schumann resonances, natural ionospheric
                > resonances which are pumped around the inonosphere by
                > the changes in the atmospheric pressure raising and
                > lowering when the earth enters shaddow at the grey
                > line, is this a fair way of conceptualising this?

                No. Nothing to do with atmospheric presuure...

                Are standing waves caused by reflections in the spherical duct between the
                earths surface and the ionosphere...

                ........... Zim
              • Renato Romero
                I have not idea of what this signal may be. It is radiated, because received with electric probe. It don t came from electric lines. It is not of natural
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 2, 2002
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                  I have not idea of what this signal may be.
                  It is radiated, because received with electric probe.
                  It don't came from electric lines.
                  It is not of natural origin: too geometric squared ... boh???
                  Bye, Renato

                  At 11.06 02/12/02 +0000, you wrote:
                  >When at a loss, ask,so Renato, what do you think that
                  >the signal was? http://www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html
                  > I am new here and have much to learn
                  > I'm curios though.all I can say is that it looks man
                  >made.
                • Hans Michlmayr
                  Hi Renato (et al), In my experience here (Western Australia) similar observations can be made , meaning I can record frequency peaks in the range of 2....7Hz
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                    Hi Renato (et al),

                    In my experience here (Western Australia) similar observations can be
                    made , meaning I can record frequency peaks in the range of 2....7Hz
                    with an induction coil, whilst at the same time time they are not observable
                    with a 6m vertical (electric field) antenna.
                    In my opinion this doesn't prove that they can't be of mains origin.

                    Have you tried to "listen" to the signal during recording? Does it sound a
                    bit like faint sparking ?

                    I have identified here two distinctly different mechanisms for those very low
                    frequency peaks:
                    One is simply caused by electric induction motors, or
                    more precisely by their "slip frequency", which is the speed difference bet-
                    ween the 50Hz (or 60Hz) Field speed ( 1500rpm for a 4-pole machine at 50Hz)
                    and the actual speed, which may be typ. 1400rpm (= 46.66Hz= 3.33Hz slip).
                    Electronically controlled induction motors often give out groups of slip pulses
                    in a repetitive fashion .
                    The other is (probably) caused by distant power line / pole hardware sparking
                    during strong winds, at least this is what it sounds like in a speaker. This also
                    will give nice steady frequency peaks in the 2...7 Hz range, but with varying
                    amplitude. I stated "probably" above because I have no way of conclusively
                    proving it, it may have in fact a different cause, but still only occurs during strong
                    wind activity. As a matter of interest, I have experimented some time ago in
                    relation to this problem by actually burying the induction coil 600mm, in order
                    to exclude any wind/mech.resonance effects around the PVC casing of my coil.
                    The 2...7Hz resonances were still present, albeit somewhat weaker....

                    At least half of such observations here show substantial differences between
                    the magnetic and electric recordings !!

                    You may have to sabotage the H.T. power distribution network for a little while
                    so you can see if the 3Hz, etc. disappear / or not ???

                    Kind regards,

                    Hans Michlmayr ( VK6ZT)
                    Western Australia
                    michlmyr@...
                    http://wavelab.homestead.com


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Renato Romero
                    To: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:33 AM
                    Subject: Re: [VLF_Group] Strange signal below 6 Hz


                    I have not idea of what this signal may be.
                    It is radiated, because received with electric probe.
                    It don't came from electric lines.
                    It is not of natural origin: too geometric squared ... boh???
                    Bye, Renato

                    At 11.06 02/12/02 +0000, you wrote:
                    >When at a loss, ask,so Renato, what do you think that
                    >the signal was? http://www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html
                    > I am new here and have much to learn
                    > I'm curios though.all I can say is that it looks man
                    >made.


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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • davep
                    ... Which makes a good point. Battery Operated Equipment. GRAB it if the power cuts out.... 8) (hint: Gummint stations generally have Great UPS , stay up if
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                      > ... the H.T. power distribution network for a little while
                      > so you can see if the 3Hz, etc. disappear / or not ???
                      Which makes a good point.

                      Battery Operated Equipment.
                      GRAB it if the power cuts out....
                      8)>>

                      (hint:
                      Gummint stations generally have Great 'UPS', stay up if
                      power goes down....)

                      best
                      dwp

                      ...the net of a million lies...
                      Vernor Vinge
                      There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things.
                      -me
                    • colin mackenzie
                      Renato, Have looked agn at sig. agn not usual natural :. artificial,looks to have a meaning,looks like a chinese trigram ( I-Ching)grouping, very clearly
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                        Renato,
                        Have looked agn at sig. agn not usual natural :.
                        artificial,looks to have a meaning,looks like a
                        chinese trigram ( I-Ching)grouping, very clearly
                        grouped. at very well defined frequencies, were they
                        simmultaneous on three frequencies, very sharp, also
                        like M
                        M
                        M all at same time in morse.
                        still wondering.

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                      • Eric Vogel
                        I have seen similar signals below 40 Hz, but I don t recall seeing them that low. Note that my receiver is an efield ball antenna. I have assumed they were
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                          I have seen similar signals below 40 Hz, but I don't
                          recall seeing them that low. Note that my receiver is
                          an efield ball antenna.

                          I have assumed they were powerline signaling of some
                          sort but really have no idea waht they are. Any idea
                          how to do direction finding at these frequencies?

                          Eric
                          --- Original Message ---
                          From: =?iso-8859-1?q?colin=20mackenzie?=
                          <clnmcknz@...>
                          To: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [VLF_Group] Strange signal below 6 Hz

                          > Renato,
                          > Have looked agn at sig. agn not usual natural :.
                          >artificial,looks to have a meaning,looks like a
                          >chinese trigram ( I-Ching)grouping, very clearly
                          >grouped. at very well defined frequencies, were they
                          >simmultaneous on three frequencies, very sharp, also
                          >like M
                          > M
                          > M all at same time in morse.
                          > still wondering.
                          >
                          >__________________________________________________
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                          Eric Vogel
                        • Robert Hand
                          Hans: I have had similar problems with magnetic antennas, especially loops. I found my problem to be seismic. There is commonly a 2 to 10 Hz peak in the
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                            Hans: I have had similar problems with magnetic antennas, especially loops.
                            I found my problem to be seismic. There is commonly a 2 to 10 Hz peak in the
                            natural seismic background and energy which is associated with air coupled
                            Raleigh waves that moves the loop with the ground movement. The magnetic
                            field of the earth then serves as a field through which the coil moves. This
                            makes it a generator. You might test the idea at your site by measuring
                            right next to a tree when the wind is blowing to see if the ambient rises.
                            Signatures from aircraft and vehicles can be seen on a coil from this
                            phenomena.
                            Just thought I would toss in another idea that I have seen ( depends a
                            lot on the local geology, bed rock has less displacement than deep
                            unconsolidated soil). Keep us posted. Bob Hand
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Hans Michlmayr" <michlmyr@...>
                            To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 6:57 AM
                            Subject: Re: [VLF_Group] Strange signal below 6 Hz


                            > Hi Renato (et al),
                            >
                            > In my experience here (Western Australia) similar observations can be
                            > made , meaning I can record frequency peaks in the range of 2....7Hz
                            > with an induction coil, whilst at the same time time they are not
                            observable
                            > with a 6m vertical (electric field) antenna.
                            > In my opinion this doesn't prove that they can't be of mains origin.
                            >
                            > Have you tried to "listen" to the signal during recording? Does it sound
                            a
                            > bit like faint sparking ?
                            >
                            > I have identified here two distinctly different mechanisms for those very
                            low
                            > frequency peaks:
                            > One is simply caused by electric induction motors, or
                            > more precisely by their "slip frequency", which is the speed difference
                            bet-
                            > ween the 50Hz (or 60Hz) Field speed ( 1500rpm for a 4-pole machine at
                            50Hz)
                            > and the actual speed, which may be typ. 1400rpm (= 46.66Hz= 3.33Hz slip).
                            > Electronically controlled induction motors often give out groups of slip
                            pulses
                            > in a repetitive fashion .
                            > The other is (probably) caused by distant power line / pole hardware
                            sparking
                            > during strong winds, at least this is what it sounds like in a speaker.
                            This also
                            > will give nice steady frequency peaks in the 2...7 Hz range, but with
                            varying
                            > amplitude. I stated "probably" above because I have no way of
                            conclusively
                            > proving it, it may have in fact a different cause, but still only occurs
                            during strong
                            > wind activity. As a matter of interest, I have experimented some time ago
                            in
                            > relation to this problem by actually burying the induction coil 600mm, in
                            order
                            > to exclude any wind/mech.resonance effects around the PVC casing of my
                            coil.
                            > The 2...7Hz resonances were still present, albeit somewhat weaker....
                            >
                            > At least half of such observations here show substantial differences
                            between
                            > the magnetic and electric recordings !!
                            >
                            > You may have to sabotage the H.T. power distribution network for a little
                            while
                            > so you can see if the 3Hz, etc. disappear / or not ???
                            >
                            > Kind regards,
                            >
                            > Hans Michlmayr ( VK6ZT)
                            > Western Australia
                            > michlmyr@...
                            > http://wavelab.homestead.com
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Renato Romero
                            > To: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:33 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [VLF_Group] Strange signal below 6 Hz
                            >
                            >
                            > I have not idea of what this signal may be.
                            > It is radiated, because received with electric probe.
                            > It don't came from electric lines.
                            > It is not of natural origin: too geometric squared ... boh???
                            > Bye, Renato
                            >
                            > At 11.06 02/12/02 +0000, you wrote:
                            > >When at a loss, ask,so Renato, what do you think that
                            > >the signal was? http://www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html
                            > > I am new here and have much to learn
                            > > I'm curios though.all I can say is that it looks man
                            > >made.
                            >
                            >
                            > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
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                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VLF_Group/
                            >
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                            just one e-mail per day (or no e-mail). This e-mail will be sent at the end
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Renato Romero
                            Hi Hans and all, signals coming from main power electric lines was the first thing I thought. From electric lines come many signals and many of them are below
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                              Hi Hans and all,
                              signals coming from main power electric lines was the first thing I
                              thought. From electric lines come many signals and many of them are below
                              20 Hz. But all signals I analyzed were always like a "glasses" on the "50
                              Hz nose": if I found a signal at 10 Hz there is always his mirrored image
                              at 90 Hz. This rule is true in 90% of tested signals. In the other 5% they
                              are mirrored to 100Hz, and for lasting 5% they are used by electric society
                              at known frequencies (here at 1024 and 470Hz). These "electric" signals are
                              clear in the main power (using a transformer connected to the sound blaster
                              by electric line, 0.1 AC V output), are clear in the horizontal loop (I
                              suppose it work as a secondary of a big transformer where the primary are
                              all the electric lines in my country) and are very clear received by earth
                              dipole, recording signals come from two earth stake (in my place at about
                              35m distance).
                              This is the reason because I record two channels in my monitoring activity:
                              I need to exclude all suspected signals that may come from electric line.
                              When I find a "strange signal" with T antenna I look at the earth
                              spectrogram: if I found it (and normally very strong) I can suppose his
                              origin is in the ENEL (the Italian electric company).
                              As you can see from spectrograms this signal don't comes from electric
                              lines.
                              I can exclude the mechanical origin too (like in a condenser microphone): I
                              know exactly mechanicals resonances of my big T antenna and they appear
                              normally at other frequencies and are smoothed in amplitude.

                              I'm monitoring 24 hours a day since 29 November, then I have about 120 hour
                              of wave files to analyze. I hope in the week end to find some time to do
                              it, and to see if this strange signal comes others times.

                              Thanks for the collaborations.
                              Renato Romero
                            • Renato Romero
                              ... Unfortunately not: I developed the ortholoop for RDF in VLF but it don t work with so low frequencies. Renato
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                                At 12.27 03/12/02 -0500, you wrote:
                                >........... Any idea
                                >how to do direction finding at these frequencies?
                                >Eric


                                Unfortunately not: I developed the ortholoop for RDF in VLF but it don't
                                work with so low frequencies.
                                Renato
                              • Renato Romero
                                A copy of the original wave file is available at the bottom of the temp page: www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html Sample rate used is 306,25 sample/second. 73, Renato
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 3, 2002
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                                  A copy of the original wave file is available at the bottom of the temp page:
                                  www.vlf.it/temp/temp.html
                                  Sample rate used is 306,25 sample/second.

                                  73, Renato
                                • vlfkorgan1
                                  Renato & group, I just finished filtering and amplifying the mysterious sound below 6 Hz from the original sound file (extract.zip). The sound of the signal
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 4, 2002
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                                    Renato & group,

                                    I just finished filtering and amplifying the mysterious sound below 6
                                    Hz from the original sound file (extract.zip). The sound of the
                                    signal (after filtering and amplifying) is very similiar to
                                    interference a running microwave oven generates! This may be the
                                    source of the 6 Hz signal on the power grid. Also, the signal is
                                    mirrored between 100 Hz to 110 Hz when amplified.

                                    I have forwarded the files to Renato.

                                    Shawn
                                  • Polard
                                    For information only I found a czech equipment, used for railroad remote control, working at these frequencies. Hereunder a machine translation (
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 5, 2002
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                                      For information only

                                      I found a czech equipment, used for railroad remote control, working at
                                      these frequencies.

                                      Hereunder a machine translation (
                                      http://www.signalmont.cz/Katalogy/72845.doc )

                                      Renato has been informed.

                                      Best regards to all of you,

                                      John ON4EU (Belgium)

                                      quote

                                      The making safe source of oscillating signals BZKS 20 is intended has the
                                      generation of the oscillating signals of 0,9 Hz; 1,8 Hz; 3,6 Hz and 5,4 Hz
                                      used for the additional coding of the track circuits for LVZ and oscillating
                                      food SZZ. The improved and widened functional characteristics source BZKS
                                      20 make it possible to also apply it in other types of the material of
                                      safety of railroad or it was not possible to use the all-electronic code
                                      converter Ek-1 until A present. The assistance of BZKS 20 it is e.g.
                                      possible to connect without contact by the frequency of switch of 0,9 Hz the
                                      bulbs of the signal of luminous position PPZ. It is also possible to
                                      produce the oscillating collectors of output of 0,9 Hz and 1,8 Hz for the
                                      circuits of signal SZZ and to code the track circuits directly (without use
                                      of connectors TYS). Source BZKS 20 is possible (this depends on the
                                      concrete application) to equip by the plate with the safety circuit with
                                      supervision with two collectors to max. with the rated frequency with 0,9 Hz
                                      and 1,8 Hz. Dimensions external of the source are of (width + height +
                                      depth) 165 X 105 X 220 mm, the weight is 2,5 kg to the max.

                                      unquote


                                      -----Message d'origine-----
                                      De : vlfkorgan1 [mailto:ShawnKorgan@...]
                                      Envoyé : mercredi 4 décembre 2002 20:39
                                      À : VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                                      Objet : [VLF_Group] Re: Strange signal below 6 Hz



                                      Renato & group,

                                      I just finished filtering and amplifying the mysterious sound below 6
                                      Hz from the original sound file (extract.zip). The sound of the
                                      signal (after filtering and amplifying) is very similiar to
                                      interference a running microwave oven generates! This may be the
                                      source of the 6 Hz signal on the power grid. Also, the signal is
                                      mirrored between 100 Hz to 110 Hz when amplified.

                                      I have forwarded the files to Renato.

                                      Shawn


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