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22.8 and 18.6

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  • Luc Fontaine
    Hello to all, I m wondering what is the origin of the 22.8k and 18.6k MSK transmissions on VLF. At my location, the approx. bearing for 22.8 is 275-280 and for
    Message 1 of 30 , May 31, 2005
      Hello to all,

      I'm wondering what is the origin of the 22.8k and 18.6k MSK transmissions on VLF. At my location, the approx. bearing for 22.8 is 275-280 and for 18.6 the bearing is between 255 to 280 (low signal at the time of the RDF). So it would be great to have a bearing or 2 from SE, SW or S USA or from Western or North Canada. These freqs are not heard in Europe (at least in Finland and Germany). The 22.8 is present in Boston, Los Alamos and Seattle but not in Australia, Japan and New Zealand. The 18.6 signal is present at those US locations and also in Australia, New Zealand as seen on this site: http://flash.ess.washington.edu/. Is it the same transmission or not.

      Thank you,
      Luc
      _______________________________
      Luc Fontaine
      VE2FXL
      Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
      Canada
      46.124736 N
      70.703523 W
      184 meters ASL


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Alan Melia
      Hi Luc, 18.6 is down as Cutler NAA on my lists, but there is nothing for 22.8, but there does seem to be a slot in the list between 22.6 and 23.0. Best
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
        Hi Luc, 18.6 is down as Cutler NAA on my lists, but there is nothing for
        22.8, but there does seem to be a "slot" in the list between 22.6 and 23.0.
        Best Wishes de Alan G3NYK

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Luc Fontaine" <lfontain@...>
        To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: 01 June 2005 02:41
        Subject: [VLF_Group] 22.8 and 18.6


        > Hello to all,
        >
        > I'm wondering what is the origin of the 22.8k and 18.6k MSK
        transmissions on VLF. At my location, the approx. bearing for 22.8 is
        275-280 and for 18.6 the bearing is between 255 to 280 (low signal at the
        time of the RDF). So it would be great to have a bearing or 2 from SE, SW or
        S USA or from Western or North Canada. These freqs are not heard in Europe
        (at least in Finland and Germany). The 22.8 is present in Boston, Los Alamos
        and Seattle but not in Australia, Japan and New Zealand. The 18.6 signal is
        present at those US locations and also in Australia, New Zealand as seen on
        this site: http://flash.ess.washington.edu/. Is it the same transmission or
        not.
        >
        > Thank you,
        > Luc
        > _______________________________
        > Luc Fontaine
        > VE2FXL
        > Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
        > Canada
        > 46.124736 N
        > 70.703523 W
        > 184 meters ASL
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
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      • Christopher Gross
        ... and 23.0. There s a set of frequency lists at http://www.vlf.it/trond2/list.html I think NAA is only on 24 kHz now (although there seem to be some
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 1, 2005
          --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Melia" <Alan.Melia@b...> wrote:
          > Hi Luc, 18.6 is down as Cutler NAA on my lists, but there is nothing for
          > 22.8, but there does seem to be a "slot" in the list between 22.6
          and 23.0.

          There's a set of frequency lists at

          http://www.vlf.it/trond2/list.html

          I think NAA is only on 24 kHz now (although there seem to be some
          overlapping transmissions in that band), and the list I just mentioned
          has 18.6 down as a TACAMO frequency, which would tend to go on and off
          the air as needed. 22.8 is apparently assigned to NWC in Australia,
          but the list says it's "currently only active at; 00019.8 kHz".

          In any case, the list hasn't been updated since 2001, so maybe things
          have changed since then... :-)

          Chris
        • Luc Fontaine
          18.6 is not Cutler anymore and I know 22.8 is bearing toward Hawaii from here. Also the transmission at 18.6 is not Tacamo because it s a steady night
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
            18.6 is not Cutler anymore and I know 22.8 is bearing toward Hawaii from
            here. Also the transmission at 18.6 is not Tacamo because it's a steady
            night transmission not characteristic of the Tacamo one (I'm used of the
            Tacamo tx). There's a 18.6 in Australia and I want another RDF bearing from
            a VLF loop in the location stated in my first message to confirm the
            Australian site and the Hawaii site from 22.8.

            Luc

            _______________________________
            Luc Fontaine
            VE2FXL
            Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
            Canada
            46.124736 N
            70.703523 W
            184 meters ASL


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Christopher Gross" <cgross@...>
            To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 12:55 PM
            Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


            > --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Melia" <Alan.Melia@b...> wrote:
            >> Hi Luc, 18.6 is down as Cutler NAA on my lists, but there is nothing for
            >> 22.8, but there does seem to be a "slot" in the list between 22.6
            > and 23.0.
            >
            > There's a set of frequency lists at
            >
            > http://www.vlf.it/trond2/list.html
            >
            > I think NAA is only on 24 kHz now (although there seem to be some
            > overlapping transmissions in that band), and the list I just mentioned
            > has 18.6 down as a TACAMO frequency, which would tend to go on and off
            > the air as needed. 22.8 is apparently assigned to NWC in Australia,
            > but the list says it's "currently only active at; 00019.8 kHz".
            >
            > In any case, the list hasn't been updated since 2001, so maybe things
            > have changed since then... :-)
            >
            > Chris
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Christopher Gross
            ... from ... the ... bearing from ... I wonder if there are any more up-to-date frequency lists available? I ve heard some unidentified transmissions on VLF as
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
              --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine <lfontain@g...> wrote:
              > 18.6 is not Cutler anymore and I know 22.8 is bearing toward Hawaii
              from
              > here. Also the transmission at 18.6 is not Tacamo because it's a steady
              > night transmission not characteristic of the Tacamo one (I'm used of
              the
              > Tacamo tx). There's a 18.6 in Australia and I want another RDF
              bearing from
              > a VLF loop in the location stated in my first message to confirm the
              > Australian site and the Hawaii site from 22.8.
              >
              > Luc
              >

              I wonder if there are any more up-to-date frequency lists available?
              I've heard some unidentified transmissions on VLF as well, and the
              frequencies I've heard them on don't seem to correspond to anything I
              can find on the available lists (some of which date back to the '90s)...

              Chris
            • Luc Fontaine
              Hi Chris, You don t a VLF loop just to null out the signal to combine your bearings with mine? Luc _______________________________ Luc Fontaine VE2FXL
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
                Hi Chris,

                You don't a VLF loop just to null out the signal to combine your
                bearings with mine?

                Luc

                _______________________________
                Luc Fontaine
                VE2FXL
                Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                Canada
                46.124736 N
                70.703523 W
                184 meters ASL

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Christopher Gross" <cgross@...>
                To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 10:15 AM
                Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                > --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                >> 18.6 is not Cutler anymore and I know 22.8 is bearing toward Hawaii
                > from
                >> here. Also the transmission at 18.6 is not Tacamo because it's a steady
                >> night transmission not characteristic of the Tacamo one (I'm used of
                > the
                >> Tacamo tx). There's a 18.6 in Australia and I want another RDF
                > bearing from
                >> a VLF loop in the location stated in my first message to confirm the
                >> Australian site and the Hawaii site from 22.8.
                >>
                >> Luc
                >>
                >
                > I wonder if there are any more up-to-date frequency lists available?
                > I've heard some unidentified transmissions on VLF as well, and the
                > frequencies I've heard them on don't seem to correspond to anything I
                > can find on the available lists (some of which date back to the '90s)...
                >
                > Chris
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
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              • Christopher Gross
                ... your ... I ve got two loops mounted in the attic, but they re fixed (one oriented north-south, the other east-west) and may only be of limited use in
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
                  --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine
                  <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                  > Hi Chris,
                  >
                  > You don't a VLF loop just to null out the signal to combine
                  your
                  > bearings with mine?
                  >
                  > Luc
                  >
                  I've got two loops mounted in the attic, but they're fixed (one
                  oriented north-south, the other east-west) and may only be of
                  limited use in direction-finding. But field strength comparison
                  has been suggested, which would work better using the
                  software-receiver technique. I've never used that before, but I'll try
                  it over the weekend and check each loop in turn to see if it picks
                  up the signals you've been receiving-- and if so, which loop picks
                  them up better. That may be of some help; I'll let you know the
                  results.

                  Chris
                • Luc Fontaine
                  Than you Chris, And where are you located? Luc _______________________________ Luc Fontaine VE2FXL Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec Canada 46.124736 N 70.703523
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
                    Than you Chris,

                    And where are you located?

                    Luc

                    _______________________________
                    Luc Fontaine
                    VE2FXL
                    Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                    Canada
                    46.124736 N
                    70.703523 W
                    184 meters ASL

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Christopher Gross" <cgross@...>
                    To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 5:06 PM
                    Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                    > --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine
                    > <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                    >> Hi Chris,
                    >>
                    >> You don't a VLF loop just to null out the signal to combine
                    > your
                    >> bearings with mine?
                    >>
                    >> Luc
                    >>
                    > I've got two loops mounted in the attic, but they're fixed (one
                    > oriented north-south, the other east-west) and may only be of
                    > limited use in direction-finding. But field strength comparison
                    > has been suggested, which would work better using the
                    > software-receiver technique. I've never used that before, but I'll try
                    > it over the weekend and check each loop in turn to see if it picks
                    > up the signals you've been receiving-- and if so, which loop picks
                    > them up better. That may be of some help; I'll let you know the
                    > results.
                    >
                    > Chris
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subscribe: VLF_Group-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Members may request the option of receiving just one e-mail per day which
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                  • Christopher Gross
                    ... I m in Oradell, New Jersey (USA)-- 40°57 N, 74°01 W... I just checked through my programs, and it turns out that my spectrograph software only goes as
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
                      --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine
                      <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                      > Than you Chris,
                      >
                      > And where are you located?
                      >
                      > Luc
                      >
                      I'm in Oradell, New Jersey (USA)-- 40°57'N, 74°01'W...

                      I just checked through my programs, and it turns out that my
                      spectrograph software only goes as high as 22 kHz, but I can
                      still look for that signal on 18.6 with the computer and listen for
                      both signals on my Rycom. Anyway, I'll use both loops and let
                      you know what I pick up over the next few days...

                      Chris
                    • Luc Fontaine
                      Hi Chris, You could try Gram or Speclab, they go to 24 kHz. 18.6 is strong from 0300Z to abt 1230Z here and disappears the rest of the time, so it should be
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 2, 2005
                        Hi Chris,

                        You could try Gram or Speclab, they go to 24 kHz. 18.6 is strong from
                        0300Z to abt 1230Z here and disappears the rest of the time, so it should be
                        the same for you as we are not too far from each other. 22.8 is strong
                        enough almost 24 hrs a day. I'm very pleased that you will do the test for
                        me. Thank you a lot! 22.8 is a mystery for me from 2 1/2 years. 18.6 is new
                        for me. Also I almost forgot that I have another unlocated signal at 23.2
                        but it's very week here. I think it will be difficult to null out. At my
                        side, I saw that the bearing is near the same of 22.8 but not as precise
                        because of the weakness of the signal.

                        Best regards,
                        Luc

                        _______________________________
                        Luc Fontaine
                        VE2FXL
                        Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                        Canada
                        46.124736 N
                        70.703523 W
                        184 meters ASL

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Christopher Gross" <cgross@...>
                        To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 7:46 PM
                        Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                        --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine
                        <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                        > Than you Chris,
                        >
                        > And where are you located?
                        >
                        > Luc
                        >
                        I'm in Oradell, New Jersey (USA)-- 40°57'N, 74°01'W...

                        I just checked through my programs, and it turns out that my
                        spectrograph software only goes as high as 22 kHz, but I can
                        still look for that signal on 18.6 with the computer and listen for
                        both signals on my Rycom. Anyway, I'll use both loops and let
                        you know what I pick up over the next few days...

                        Chris







                        Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
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                      • Christopher Gross
                        ... from ... should be ... I tried listening late yesterday afternoon on the Rycom and didn t hear anything (the band was also a bit noisy at the time, but it
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
                          --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                          > Hi Chris,
                          >
                          > You could try Gram or Speclab, they go to 24 kHz. 18.6 is strong
                          from
                          > 0300Z to abt 1230Z here and disappears the rest of the time, so it
                          should be
                          > the same for you as we are not too far from each other.

                          I tried listening late yesterday afternoon on the Rycom and didn't
                          hear anything (the band was also a bit noisy at the time, but it tends
                          to clear up later at night); I'll try again after 0300.

                          22.8 is strong
                          > enough almost 24 hrs a day.

                          I've picked it up (faintly) using the east-west loop; it sounds a bit
                          like NAA, only 'cleaner'. I mean that NAA always sounds to me as
                          though it's broadcasting several signals on the same frequency...
                          Maybe it's something to do with their multiplexing methods. I'll
                          switch to the other antenna in a day or two after I've gotten an idea
                          of the average signal strength.

                          Also I almost forgot that I have another unlocated signal at 23.2
                          > but it's very week here.

                          I'll check for that one as well!

                          Chris
                        • Luc Fontaine
                          Hello Chris, Better time (when out of bed) for 18.6 is abt 1100Z, 6:00-7:00am EDT. 22.8 is very easy for RDF. good signal 24 hours a day.! Good Luck and thank
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
                            Hello Chris,

                            Better time (when out of bed) for 18.6 is abt 1100Z, 6:00-7:00am EDT.
                            22.8 is very easy for RDF. good signal 24 hours a day.! Good Luck and thank
                            you!

                            Luc
                            _______________________________
                            Luc Fontaine
                            VE2FXL
                            Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                            Canada
                            46.124736 N
                            70.703523 W
                            184 meters ASL

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Christopher Gross" <cgross@...>
                            To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 10:44 AM
                            Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                            > --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                            >> Hi Chris,
                            >>
                            >> You could try Gram or Speclab, they go to 24 kHz. 18.6 is strong
                            > from
                            >> 0300Z to abt 1230Z here and disappears the rest of the time, so it
                            > should be
                            >> the same for you as we are not too far from each other.
                            >
                            > I tried listening late yesterday afternoon on the Rycom and didn't
                            > hear anything (the band was also a bit noisy at the time, but it tends
                            > to clear up later at night); I'll try again after 0300.
                            >
                            > 22.8 is strong
                            >> enough almost 24 hrs a day.
                            >
                            > I've picked it up (faintly) using the east-west loop; it sounds a bit
                            > like NAA, only 'cleaner'. I mean that NAA always sounds to me as
                            > though it's broadcasting several signals on the same frequency...
                            > Maybe it's something to do with their multiplexing methods. I'll
                            > switch to the other antenna in a day or two after I've gotten an idea
                            > of the average signal strength.
                            >
                            > Also I almost forgot that I have another unlocated signal at 23.2
                            >> but it's very week here.
                            >
                            > I'll check for that one as well!
                            >
                            > Chris
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
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                            >
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                            >
                          • Christopher Gross
                            ... 7:00am EDT. Hello Luc, That s a good time for me; I get up at around 6 these days, and it s still quiet on VLF until 7:00 or so. Something nearby starts
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
                              --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine <
                              lfontain@g...> wrote:
                              > Hello Chris,
                              >
                              > Better time (when out of bed) for 18.6 is abt 1100Z, 6:00-
                              7:00am EDT.

                              Hello Luc,

                              That's a good time for me; I get up at around 6 these days, and
                              it's still quiet on VLF until 7:00 or so. Something nearby starts
                              creating interference at that time, and it usually lasts until
                              nightfall at least...

                              BTW, I just received an ultrasonic translator today that I'd bought
                              on eBay (I work with electronic music and collect gadgets like
                              this as sound sources)-- and it picks up NAA! The contact probe
                              is acting as an antenna and translating electrical signals up to
                              about 40 kHz (I think) down into the audio range. It picks up
                              sferics, too; I wonder what would happen if I used an antenna
                              instead of a probe--?

                              Chris
                            • Luc Fontaine
                              Hi Chris, Sounds a good tool for VLF! Well i m waiting for your results and hope you ll have a bearing or 2 for me! Best regards, Luc
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 3, 2005
                                Hi Chris,

                                Sounds a good tool for VLF! Well i'm waiting for your results and hope
                                you'll have a bearing or 2 for me!

                                Best regards,
                                Luc

                                _______________________________
                                Luc Fontaine
                                VE2FXL
                                Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                Canada
                                46.124736 N
                                70.703523 W
                                184 meters ASL

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Christopher Gross" <cgross@...>
                                To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 5:15 PM
                                Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                                > --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine <
                                > lfontain@g...> wrote:
                                >> Hello Chris,
                                >>
                                >> Better time (when out of bed) for 18.6 is abt 1100Z, 6:00-
                                > 7:00am EDT.
                                >
                                > Hello Luc,
                                >
                                > That's a good time for me; I get up at around 6 these days, and
                                > it's still quiet on VLF until 7:00 or so. Something nearby starts
                                > creating interference at that time, and it usually lasts until
                                > nightfall at least...
                                >
                                > BTW, I just received an ultrasonic translator today that I'd bought
                                > on eBay (I work with electronic music and collect gadgets like
                                > this as sound sources)-- and it picks up NAA! The contact probe
                                > is acting as an antenna and translating electrical signals up to
                                > about 40 kHz (I think) down into the audio range. It picks up
                                > sferics, too; I wonder what would happen if I used an antenna
                                > instead of a probe--?
                                >
                                > Chris
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
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                                >
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                              • Wolf DL4YHF
                                Hi Chris, Spectrum Lab supports sampling rates up to 96, or even 192 kHz (someone else reported it worked with his M-Audio card, giving a nice frequency
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 4, 2005
                                  Hi Chris,

                                  Spectrum Lab supports sampling rates up to 96, or even 192 kHz (someone
                                  else reported it worked with his M-Audio card, giving a nice frequency
                                  response up to 90 kHz "audio"). 96 kHz sampling rate is supported by
                                  some cheaper card, for example the Audigy 2 ZS (which I use for VLF
                                  RDF'ing).
                                  About RDF'ing with two orthogonal loops and software: This is at least
                                  as accurate as comparing the voltages with an analogue meter (or an
                                  oscilloscope). Bearing errors are below 5 degrees - which can only be
                                  topped with a rotatable loop, using the loop's null.
                                  The big advantage of the RDF-spectrogram is you simultaneously see all
                                  bearings for all signals in your antenna's passband.

                                  Regards,
                                  Wolfgang DL4YHF .
                                • Luc Fontaine
                                  Hello Wolfgang, Does the two loops need to be exactly indentical or some electronical adjustments could be done to operate like it is 2 identical loops? Luc
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jun 4, 2005
                                    Hello Wolfgang,

                                    Does the two loops need to be exactly indentical or some electronical
                                    adjustments could be done to operate like it is 2 identical loops?

                                    Luc

                                    _______________________________
                                    Luc Fontaine
                                    VE2FXL
                                    Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                    Canada
                                    46.124736 N
                                    70.703523 W
                                    184 meters ASL

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Wolf DL4YHF" <dl4yhf@...>
                                    To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 4:59 AM
                                    Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                                    > Hi Chris,
                                    >
                                    > Spectrum Lab supports sampling rates up to 96, or even 192 kHz (someone
                                    > else reported it worked with his M-Audio card, giving a nice frequency
                                    > response up to 90 kHz "audio"). 96 kHz sampling rate is supported by
                                    > some cheaper card, for example the Audigy 2 ZS (which I use for VLF
                                    > RDF'ing).
                                    > About RDF'ing with two orthogonal loops and software: This is at least
                                    > as accurate as comparing the voltages with an analogue meter (or an
                                    > oscilloscope). Bearing errors are below 5 degrees - which can only be
                                    > topped with a rotatable loop, using the loop's null.
                                    > The big advantage of the RDF-spectrogram is you simultaneously see all
                                    > bearings for all signals in your antenna's passband.
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Wolfgang DL4YHF .
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subscribe: VLF_Group-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
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                                    >
                                    >
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                                    >
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                                    >
                                  • Christopher Gross
                                    ... and hope ... Hi Luc, I was able to pick up 18.6 this morning and managed to record it (plus 22.8 and NAA thrown in for good measure) before the local
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jun 5, 2005
                                      --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine
                                      <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                                      > Hi Chris,
                                      >
                                      > Sounds a good tool for VLF! Well i'm waiting for your results
                                      and hope
                                      > you'll have a bearing or 2 for me!
                                      >
                                      > Best regards,
                                      > Luc
                                      >
                                      Hi Luc,

                                      I was able to pick up 18.6 this morning and managed to record it
                                      (plus 22.8 and NAA thrown in for good measure) before the local
                                      interference started (just a few minutes ago). I've uploaded
                                      some MP3s to

                                      http://users.erols.com/cgross/VLF/MSK

                                      The recordings were made using a 10 kHz bandwidth and lower
                                      sideband. The relative volumes are correct; I just tuned from one
                                      station to another without changing the recording level. No EQ or
                                      compression was used...

                                      Now that I've gotten results with the east-west loop, I'll switch to
                                      the other one and see what happens... :-)

                                      Chris
                                    • Luc Fontaine
                                      Hi Chris, Yes, good sounds, so are you able to get a direction for those signals? Do you get the E-6 Tacamo aircraft there, I have 2 recordings with 800 and
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jun 5, 2005
                                        Hi Chris,

                                        Yes, good sounds, so are you able to get a direction for those signals?
                                        Do you get the E-6 Tacamo aircraft there, I have 2 recordings with 800 and
                                        1600 Hz MSK. If you want them, i could send them to you directly.

                                        Luc

                                        _______________________________
                                        Luc Fontaine
                                        VE2FXL
                                        Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                        Canada
                                        46.124736 N
                                        70.703523 W
                                        184 meters ASL

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Christopher Gross" <cgross@...>
                                        To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:16 AM
                                        Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                                        > --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine
                                        > <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                                        >> Hi Chris,
                                        >>
                                        >> Sounds a good tool for VLF! Well i'm waiting for your results
                                        > and hope
                                        >> you'll have a bearing or 2 for me!
                                        >>
                                        >> Best regards,
                                        >> Luc
                                        >>
                                        > Hi Luc,
                                        >
                                        > I was able to pick up 18.6 this morning and managed to record it
                                        > (plus 22.8 and NAA thrown in for good measure) before the local
                                        > interference started (just a few minutes ago). I've uploaded
                                        > some MP3s to
                                        >
                                        > http://users.erols.com/cgross/VLF/MSK
                                        >
                                        > The recordings were made using a 10 kHz bandwidth and lower
                                        > sideband. The relative volumes are correct; I just tuned from one
                                        > station to another without changing the recording level. No EQ or
                                        > compression was used...
                                        >
                                        > Now that I've gotten results with the east-west loop, I'll switch to
                                        > the other one and see what happens... :-)
                                        >
                                        > Chris
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subscribe: VLF_Group-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > Members may request the option of receiving just one e-mail per day which
                                        > contains all of the days comments. Simply send an e-mail to the list owner
                                        > (VLF_Group-owner@yahoogroups.com) requesting digest mode.
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Wolf DL4YHF
                                        Hello Luc, Different gain of the two loops can be compensated via software (through a calibration table), but it s a tedious job to produce that table (which
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Jun 5, 2005
                                          Hello Luc,

                                          Different "gain" of the two loops can be compensated via software
                                          (through a calibration table), but it's a tedious job to produce that
                                          table (which is basically a textfile with amplitude- and phase
                                          calibration data for both antennas, taken at different frequencies). I
                                          found it much simpler to connect a multi-turn trimpot between one of the
                                          antenna inputs and the soundcard, because the amplitude-errors did not
                                          depend on the frequency - at least on VLF.
                                          There is some (sparse) information about how to create the calibration
                                          table and how to load it in the document html/colourdf.htm (look for
                                          "calibration") in the Spectrum Lab directory. If you need more
                                          information about how to set up such a system, or how to remove the 180°
                                          bearing ambiguity with an additional E-field antenna, please ask. It is
                                          not simple but it can be done.

                                          Best regards,
                                          Wolfgang .
                                        • Luc Fontaine
                                          Hello Wolfgang, First, what I need to know is what is an E-field antenna and how do I manage to get all done right and also how to setup the RDF system for a
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Jun 5, 2005
                                            Hello Wolfgang,

                                            First, what I need to know is what is an E-field antenna and how do I
                                            manage to get all done right and also how to setup the RDF system for a
                                            neophyte like me (in electronic).

                                            Thanks,
                                            Luc
                                            _______________________________
                                            Luc Fontaine
                                            VE2FXL
                                            Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                            Canada
                                            46.124736 N
                                            70.703523 W
                                            184 meters ASL

                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "Wolf DL4YHF" <dl4yhf@...>
                                            To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 2:30 PM
                                            Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: Re: Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                                            > Hello Luc,
                                            >
                                            > Different "gain" of the two loops can be compensated via software
                                            > (through a calibration table), but it's a tedious job to produce that
                                            > table (which is basically a textfile with amplitude- and phase
                                            > calibration data for both antennas, taken at different frequencies). I
                                            > found it much simpler to connect a multi-turn trimpot between one of the
                                            > antenna inputs and the soundcard, because the amplitude-errors did not
                                            > depend on the frequency - at least on VLF.
                                            > There is some (sparse) information about how to create the calibration
                                            > table and how to load it in the document html/colourdf.htm (look for
                                            > "calibration") in the Spectrum Lab directory. If you need more
                                            > information about how to set up such a system, or how to remove the 180°
                                            > bearing ambiguity with an additional E-field antenna, please ask. It is
                                            > not simple but it can be done.
                                            >
                                            > Best regards,
                                            > Wolfgang .
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subscribe: VLF_Group-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Members may request the option of receiving just one e-mail per day which
                                            > contains all of the days comments. Simply send an e-mail to the list owner
                                            > (VLF_Group-owner@yahoogroups.com) requesting digest mode.
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Wolf DL4YHF
                                            Hi Luc and the group, ... For VLF, an E-field antenna is a short monopole (rod antenna, vertical wire etc) where short means a tiny fraction of the
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
                                              Hi Luc and the group,

                                              > First, what I need to know is what is an E-field antenna
                                              > and how do I manage to get all done right and also
                                              > how to setup the RDF system for a neophyte like me
                                              > (in electronic).

                                              For VLF, an E-field antenna is a "short monopole" (rod antenna, vertical wire etc) where "short" means a tiny fraction of the wavelength - for us, this is always the case at VLF. It only picks up the electric field.

                                              Your two loops, on the other hand, are H-field antennas; only sensitive for the magnetic field because their dimension is sooo much smaller than the wavelength (not to be confused with "loops" we use at shortwave; for example the "quad", "delta-loop" and the like pick up E- as well as H-field).

                                              Back to the radio direction finder: For an easy start, accept the 180° direction ambiguity of the orthogonal loop system. Connect one loop to the left channel of the soundcard's line-input, the other to the right channel, and select the antenna setup "two loops on separate inputs" in SpecLab's "Radio Direction Finder" tab.

                                              (Note: To resolve the 180° ambiguity, you need an additional broadband 90° phase shifter, and an active E-field antenna. The phase shifter is tricky to build, because for VLF it would have to cover several octaves (!) - so forget about it for the moment).

                                              There is a lot of information about this RDF principle (including the maths) on the website of Markus Vester, who built the first running system for the 136 kHz amateur radio band:
                                              http://members.aol.com/df6nm2/ColourDF/ColourDF.htm



                                              A sample RDF screenshot taken on VLF is here:

                                              http://people.freenet.de/dl4yhf/spectra1.html

                                              You can see the european VLF transmitters, and -as small pixels- the
                                              Russian "ALPHA" from different directions. The sreenshot was taken with
                                              a crossed pair of ferrite loops, connected to the soundcard through
                                              simple opamps (low-input impedance amplifiers for flat frequency
                                              responce from 500 Hz to > 20 kHz).

                                              A description (including amplifier diagram) of the VLF RDF antenna is here:
                                              http://people.freenet.de/dl4yhf/vlf_rdf/vlf_rdf_loop.html
                                              Despite its ugly look, it works quite well. A larger loop without
                                              ferrites may give a better S/N ratio, and be easier to build if you have
                                              the space for it.

                                              Best regards, and happy homebrewing !
                                              Wolfgang .
                                            • Luc Fontaine
                                              Thank you Wolfgang for the great info, I really appreciate! Luc _______________________________ Luc Fontaine VE2FXL Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec Canada
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
                                                Thank you Wolfgang for the great info, I really appreciate!

                                                Luc
                                                _______________________________
                                                Luc Fontaine
                                                VE2FXL
                                                Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                                Canada
                                                46.124736 N
                                                70.703523 W
                                                184 meters ASL

                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Wolf DL4YHF" <dl4yhf@...>
                                                To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 1:17 PM
                                                Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                                                > Hi Luc and the group,
                                                >
                                                >> First, what I need to know is what is an E-field antenna
                                                >> and how do I manage to get all done right and also
                                                >> how to setup the RDF system for a neophyte like me
                                                >> (in electronic).
                                                >
                                                > For VLF, an E-field antenna is a "short monopole" (rod antenna, vertical
                                                > wire etc) where "short" means a tiny fraction of the wavelength - for us,
                                                > this is always the case at VLF. It only picks up the electric field.
                                                >
                                                > Your two loops, on the other hand, are H-field antennas; only sensitive
                                                > for the magnetic field because their dimension is sooo much smaller than
                                                > the wavelength (not to be confused with "loops" we use at shortwave; for
                                                > example the "quad", "delta-loop" and the like pick up E- as well as
                                                > H-field).
                                                >
                                                > Back to the radio direction finder: For an easy start, accept the 180°
                                                > direction ambiguity of the orthogonal loop system. Connect one loop to the
                                                > left channel of the soundcard's line-input, the other to the right
                                                > channel, and select the antenna setup "two loops on separate inputs" in
                                                > SpecLab's "Radio Direction Finder" tab.
                                                >
                                                > (Note: To resolve the 180° ambiguity, you need an additional broadband 90°
                                                > phase shifter, and an active E-field antenna. The phase shifter is tricky
                                                > to build, because for VLF it would have to cover several octaves (!) - so
                                                > forget about it for the moment).
                                                >
                                                > There is a lot of information about this RDF principle (including the
                                                > maths) on the website of Markus Vester, who built the first running system
                                                > for the 136 kHz amateur radio band:
                                                > http://members.aol.com/df6nm2/ColourDF/ColourDF.htm
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > A sample RDF screenshot taken on VLF is here:
                                                >
                                                > http://people.freenet.de/dl4yhf/spectra1.html
                                                >
                                                > You can see the european VLF transmitters, and -as small pixels- the
                                                > Russian "ALPHA" from different directions. The sreenshot was taken with
                                                > a crossed pair of ferrite loops, connected to the soundcard through
                                                > simple opamps (low-input impedance amplifiers for flat frequency
                                                > responce from 500 Hz to > 20 kHz).
                                                >
                                                > A description (including amplifier diagram) of the VLF RDF antenna is
                                                > here:
                                                > http://people.freenet.de/dl4yhf/vlf_rdf/vlf_rdf_loop.html
                                                > Despite its ugly look, it works quite well. A larger loop without
                                                > ferrites may give a better S/N ratio, and be easier to build if you have
                                                > the space for it.
                                                >
                                                > Best regards, and happy homebrewing !
                                                > Wolfgang .
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subscribe: VLF_Group-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                > Members may request the option of receiving just one e-mail per day which
                                                > contains all of the days comments. Simply send an e-mail to the list owner
                                                > (VLF_Group-owner@yahoogroups.com) requesting digest mode.
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Peter Schmalkoke
                                                ... With that particular amplifier the magnetic antenna operates in current mode. This causes the required 90° phase shift quite naturally with regard to an
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jun 6, 2005
                                                  Wolf DL4YHF wrote:

                                                  > (Note: To resolve the 180° ambiguity, you need an additional broadband 90° phase shifter,
                                                  > and an active E-field antenna. The phase shifter is tricky to build, because for VLF it
                                                  > would have to cover several octaves (!) - so forget about it for the moment).
                                                  >
                                                  > A description (including amplifier diagram) of the VLF RDF antenna is here:
                                                  > http://people.freenet.de/dl4yhf/vlf_rdf/vlf_rdf_loop.html

                                                  With that particular amplifier the magnetic antenna operates in current mode.
                                                  This causes the required 90° phase shift quite naturally with regard to an
                                                  ordinary E-filed antenna over many octaves.
                                                  The same principle is explained at http://www.vlf.it/looptheo7/looptheo7.htm

                                                  If one doesn't like the integrating behavior of those loop amplifiers
                                                  (which gives an output independent of frequency like with the E-field
                                                  antenna), possibly because it results in too strong 50/60 Hz hum signals,
                                                  then one could alternatively utilize a differentiator (derivative unit)
                                                  for the E-field channel alone, which should not be too tricky to build.
                                                  Only a low pass filter for the frequencies above the VLF band would be
                                                  recommended in addition.

                                                  It is not necessary to use a complicated multi-octave 90° phase shifter
                                                  with constant gain, as it is used for SSB modulation. Thus I would say:
                                                  Forget about the tricky to build 90° phase shifter for the E-field
                                                  antenna, that you apparently had in mind. :)

                                                  Best regards,

                                                  Peter
                                                • Christopher Gross
                                                  ... those signals? There has been so much noise around here lately (local interference and thunderstorms) that reception has been very bad-- so no useful
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jun 7, 2005
                                                    --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine
                                                    <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                                                    > Hi Chris,
                                                    >
                                                    > Yes, good sounds, so are you able to get a direction for
                                                    those signals?

                                                    There has been so much noise around here lately (local
                                                    interference and thunderstorms) that reception has been very
                                                    bad-- so no useful results as of yet. I'll keep listening, though,
                                                    and I'm going to rig up a small steerable loop and see what it
                                                    picks up...


                                                    > Do you get the E-6 Tacamo aircraft there, I have 2 recordings
                                                    with 800 and
                                                    > 1600 Hz MSK. If you want them, i could send them to you
                                                    directly.
                                                    >
                                                    I've heard intermittent data signals below 30 kHz that I assume
                                                    are TACAMO, but I've had a hard time finding out which
                                                    frequencies are used... In any case, I'd like to hear those
                                                    recordings so I can tell if it's the same thing I've been hearing...
                                                    :-)

                                                    Chris
                                                  • Wolf DL4YHF
                                                    Hello Peter, ... current mode. ... to an ... The problem is, I need the 90° phase shift between the two loop signals, as explained on DF6NM s website. In
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jun 7, 2005
                                                      Hello Peter,

                                                      Thanks for the suggestion - of course you are right :

                                                      >With that particular amplifier the magnetic antenna operates in
                                                      current mode.
                                                      > This causes the required 90° phase shift quite naturally with regard
                                                      to an
                                                      > ordinary E-filed antenna over many octaves.

                                                      The problem is, I need the 90° phase shift "between" the two loop
                                                      signals, as explained on DF6NM's website. In his setup (for 136 kHz) the
                                                      signal from the two loops is combined (in a hybrid combiner) to form a
                                                      signal with direction-independent amplitude, only the phase of the
                                                      combined loop signal depends on the angle of arrival.

                                                      The ratio between E-field antenna and combined loops is a measure for
                                                      the elevation (displayed as colour saturation in DF6NM's screenshots).

                                                      The E-field amplifier is connected to one input of the soundcard, the
                                                      combined H-field signal to the other.

                                                      All this phase-shifting and combining could be easily done in software,
                                                      if only the soundcard had three instead of two analog input channels
                                                      (which must be sampled exactly at the same time, so two soundcards won't
                                                      help).

                                                      Time to build a 3- or better 4-channel A/D converter for the USB port,
                                                      with ~48 kHz sampling rate ;-)

                                                      Regards,
                                                      Wolf DL4YHF .
                                                    • meteoroid53
                                                      Hello, I have been watching 22.8 for over a week here. The title caught my attention as I haven t been able to figure out where the signal is coming from. With
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jun 15, 2005
                                                        Hello,
                                                        I have been watching 22.8 for over a week here. The title caught
                                                        my attention as I haven't been able to figure out where the signal is
                                                        coming from. With my somewhat primitive receiving set up I am able to
                                                        pick it up very well and at times it is even stronger then NAA Cutler.

                                                        Andrew
                                                        KC8UCU
                                                      • Luc Fontaine
                                                        Hello Andrew, Thank you for the interest, will it be possible for you to have a bearing with a loop? Luc _______________________________ Luc Fontaine VE2FXL
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Jun 19, 2005
                                                          Hello Andrew,

                                                          Thank you for the interest, will it be possible for you to have a
                                                          bearing with a loop?

                                                          Luc
                                                          _______________________________
                                                          Luc Fontaine
                                                          VE2FXL
                                                          Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                                          Canada
                                                          46.124736 N
                                                          70.703523 W
                                                          184 meters ASL

                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "meteoroid53" <metra@...>
                                                          To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 1:55 AM
                                                          Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                                                          > Hello,
                                                          > I have been watching 22.8 for over a week here. The title caught
                                                          > my attention as I haven't been able to figure out where the signal is
                                                          > coming from. With my somewhat primitive receiving set up I am able to
                                                          > pick it up very well and at times it is even stronger then NAA Cutler.
                                                          >
                                                          > Andrew
                                                          > KC8UCU
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Subscribe: VLF_Group-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                          >
                                                          > Members may request the option of receiving just one e-mail per day which
                                                          > contains all of the days comments. Simply send an e-mail to the list owner
                                                          > (VLF_Group-owner@yahoogroups.com) requesting digest mode.
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • Christopher Gross
                                                          ... caught ... signal is ... am able to ... Cutler. ... That s happened here as well. I ve been trying to help locate the signal myself with various antenna &
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Jun 19, 2005
                                                            --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, "meteoroid53"
                                                            <metra@e...> wrote:
                                                            > Hello,
                                                            > I have been watching 22.8 for over a week here. The title
                                                            caught
                                                            > my attention as I haven't been able to figure out where the
                                                            signal is
                                                            > coming from. With my somewhat primitive receiving set up I
                                                            am able to
                                                            > pick it up very well and at times it is even stronger then NAA
                                                            Cutler.
                                                            >
                                                            > Andrew
                                                            > KC8UCU

                                                            That's happened here as well. I've been trying to help locate the
                                                            signal myself with various antenna & receiver combinations, but
                                                            so far without success. BTW, I've posted audio sprectrograms of
                                                            22.8, 18.6, and NAA at

                                                            http://users.erols.com/cgross/VLF/MSK/PIX

                                                            22.8 is nice and clean; you can see three multiplexed signals
                                                            from NAA, and 18.6 also seems to have more than one signal--
                                                            although it's not as loud as the other two and it's hard to tell for
                                                            sure.

                                                            Chris
                                                          • meteoroid53
                                                            My antenna got damaged recently so I can t get a barring. I m working on a new one and time permitting should have it set up soon. Andrew KC8UCU
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Jun 26, 2005
                                                              My antenna got damaged recently so I can't get a barring. I'm working
                                                              on a new one and time permitting should have it set up soon.

                                                              Andrew
                                                              KC8UCU

                                                              --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                                                              > Hello Andrew,
                                                              >
                                                              > Thank you for the interest, will it be possible for you to have a
                                                              > bearing with a loop?
                                                              >
                                                              > Luc
                                                              > _______________________________
                                                              > Luc Fontaine
                                                              > VE2FXL
                                                              > Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                                              > Canada
                                                              > 46.124736 N
                                                              > 70.703523 W
                                                              > 184 meters ASL
                                                              >
                                                            • Luc Fontaine
                                                              Thank you for the time! Luc _______________________________ Luc Fontaine VE2FXL Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec Canada 46.124736 N 70.703523 W 184 meters ASL
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Jun 26, 2005
                                                                Thank you for the time!

                                                                Luc
                                                                _______________________________
                                                                Luc Fontaine
                                                                VE2FXL
                                                                Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                                                Canada
                                                                46.124736 N
                                                                70.703523 W
                                                                184 meters ASL

                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                From: "meteoroid53" <metra@...>
                                                                To: <VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com>
                                                                Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2005 3:34 AM
                                                                Subject: [VLF_Group] Re: 22.8 and 18.6


                                                                > My antenna got damaged recently so I can't get a barring. I'm working
                                                                > on a new one and time permitting should have it set up soon.
                                                                >
                                                                > Andrew
                                                                > KC8UCU
                                                                >
                                                                > --- In VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com, Luc Fontaine <lfontain@g...> wrote:
                                                                >> Hello Andrew,
                                                                >>
                                                                >> Thank you for the interest, will it be possible for you to have a
                                                                >> bearing with a loop?
                                                                >>
                                                                >> Luc
                                                                >> _______________________________
                                                                >> Luc Fontaine
                                                                >> VE2FXL
                                                                >> Saint-Georges de Beauce, Quebec
                                                                >> Canada
                                                                >> 46.124736 N
                                                                >> 70.703523 W
                                                                >> 184 meters ASL
                                                                >>
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                > Post message: VLF_Group@yahoogroups.com
                                                                > Subscribe: VLF_Group-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                                >
                                                                > Members may request the option of receiving just one e-mail per day which
                                                                > contains all of the days comments. Simply send an e-mail to the list owner
                                                                > (VLF_Group-owner@yahoogroups.com) requesting digest mode.
                                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
                                                                >
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