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Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP

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  • la7um
    Rick. How robust would this be compared to MFSK16 used as ARQ? And what about UTF8 ?. I am searcing for a commom denomintator for Aurora net control. 4PSK
    Message 1 of 11 , May 15, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Rick. How robust would this be compared to MFSK16 used as ARQ? And what about UTF8 ?. I am searcing for a commom denomintator for Aurora net control.

      4PSK changed to 8QAM in WINMOR seem the next step regardless of BW modes.

      THEN rethink about when gearing from one BW to another in WINMOR.

      For QSO SPEED, it seems for me that the most robust mode possible at any given time seems of interest.

      After sun burst last day it was mandatory staying LOW in frequency, and in addition forget about all wide bands. Stick to 500Hz BW for making the tests in new WINMOR regardless of distance to my local server.

      Finn/LA7UM

      --- In V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Muething" <rmuething@...> wrote:
      >
      > Jakob,
      >
      > Well I hadn’t thought about it much...I’m pretty swamped. But it would be possible to build something like this:
      >
      > Replace the 4FSK modulation in V4 with 8QAM. The current 4FSK carries one FEC bit and one user bit per symbol. 8QAM could carry 3 bits/symbol would be used something like:
      > 1 user bit per symbol (46.875 baud give about 100 Hz of bandwidth and about 351 bytes/minute or about 58 words/min (probably closer to 45 WPM after ARQ overhead). That is fast enough for manual typing. The signal would be about 50% wider than PSK31
      >
      > 2 FEC bits per symbol one being the Viterbi Trellis code and one being the layered Reed Solomon. That should be very robust in all but the worst extreme multipath propagation. Layering two codes is very productive as they complement each other (Viterbi is near optimum for random errors but not good for bursts. Reed Solomon is excellent for bursts)
      >
      > I may have some time this summer to play with that while I am on our RV trip out west to Wyoming for 2 months.
      >
      > Your comments welcome.
      >
      > Rick, KN6KB
      >
      >
      > From: dk3cw@...
      > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:15 PM
      > To: WINMOR@yahoogroups.com ; Winlink_Programs_Group@yahoogroups.com ; V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [V4Protocol] RE: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
      >
      >
      >
      > Rick,
      >
      > thanks for the improvements to the WINMOR protocol. Just tested with RMS DB0ZAV, who is still using version 1.4.7.3. Works fine!
      >
      >
      >
      > Is there an implementation of 32QAM into the V4 Soundcard TNC planned?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > vy 73 de Jakob DK3CW
      >
      > EmComm liaison officer Frankfurt / Main
      > ARDF-unit Hessen
      > www.dk3cw.de
      >
      > When All Else Fails, Ham Radio Works
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
      > Von: "Rick Muething" [rmuething@...]
      > Gesendet: Mi. 15.05.2013 20:56
      > An: Winlink_Programs_Group@yahoogroups.com, WINMOR@yahoogroups.com, MARS_Winlink@yahoogroups.com
      > Betreff: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > All,
      >
      > Doing continued refinement of the 32QAM mode. This version (which should be backward compatible with both the 1.4.7.3 and earlier versions) now supports 16QAM in place of 8PSK and 32QAM in place of 16PSK. This should provide improved robustness when connecting to a similar version. I am running this new version with additional logging on my RMS Trimode and would welcome test connections. To activate these higher speed modes (in either 2 carrier or 8 carrier channels) it is necessary to have some fairly large (say 5+ k) messages to insure it tries these higher speed modulations. You should enable the WINMOR TNC debug log (On the WINMOR TNC form Help, basic setup, check Enable WM TNC debug log, Update ini) as this will capture some internal measurements of how well the 16 or 32 QAM modes are working.
      >
      > For those that have asked (or for anyone who really cares! ) QAM means Quadrature Amplitude Modulation where both the carrier amplitude and phase are changed (as opposed to PSK (Phase Shift Keying) where only the phase is modulated. This permits sending one extra bit (two amplitude levels) per symbol and this extra FEC bit is used to improve the robustness of these higher modulation modes. You will see this as rings of symbols (inner and outer rings). If the signals are very good you can make out the individual symbol clusters (16 for 16QAM, 32 for 32QAM) but most of the time they are so smeared (by propagation) that they look more like fuzzy concentric rings. The FEC bits help ?recover? these smeared symbols to yield good decoding.
      >
      > I have posted 1.4.7.5 on both the WINMOR Yahoo group and the Winlink WINMOR TNC FTP ftp://autoupdate.winlink.org/WINMOR%20TNC/
      >
      > 73,
      >
      > Rick Muething, KN6KB
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht Ende-----
      >
      >
      >
      > ---
      >
      > Alle Postfächer an einem Ort. Jetzt wechseln und E-Mail-Adresse mitnehmen! Rundum glücklich mit freenetMail
      >
    • Rick Muething
      Finn, There is less to be gained by using QAM8 on the 4PSK mode. There is already pretty heavy FEC. (code rate = 1/2) before RS. Though it probably won’t
      Message 2 of 11 , May 15, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Finn,
         
        There is less to be gained by using QAM8 on the 4PSK mode.  There is already pretty heavy FEC. (code rate = 1/2) before RS.  Though it probably won’t be too hard to test it. First I have to find the bug in the QAM16 implementation....it works but it is not correcting as it should!
         
         
        Re MFSK16.  You have to decide what do you want.  If you want the absolute robustness you use wide band, very high redundancy and maximum power. MFSK16 takes up a lot of room for its throughput but it is robust because of all the redundancy.  But a narrower mode like QAM8 that is carrying say 2 FEC bits/data bit (code rate = 1/3) can be very robust since it puts all the power in a smaller bandwidth (higher S/N).   The biggest problem with the QAM modes will come with very strong multipath though lower baud rates help this.
         
        I would like to include UTF8 capability (pure binary) in a mode but it does slow down the text  (8 or 16 data bits vs. 7 for ASCII ).
         
        Rick
         
         
         
        From: la7um
        Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 8:56 PM
        Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
         
         

        Rick. How robust would this be compared to MFSK16 used as ARQ? And what about UTF8 ?. I am searcing for a commom denomintator for Aurora net control.

        4PSK changed to 8QAM in WINMOR seem the next step regardless of BW modes.

        THEN rethink about when gearing from one BW to another in WINMOR.

        For QSO SPEED, it seems for me that the most robust mode possible at any given time seems of interest.

        After sun burst last day it was mandatory staying LOW in frequency, and in addition forget about all wide bands. Stick to 500Hz BW for making the tests in new WINMOR regardless of distance to my local server.

        Finn/LA7UM

        --- In mailto:V4Protocol%40yahoogroups.com, "Rick Muething" <rmuething@...> wrote:

        >
        > Jakob,
        >
        > Well I hadn’t thought about it much...I’m pretty swamped. But it
        would be possible to build something like this:
        >
        > Replace the
        4FSK modulation in V4 with 8QAM. The current 4FSK carries one FEC bit and one user bit per symbol. 8QAM could carry 3 bits/symbol would be used something like:
        > 1 user bit per symbol (46.875 baud give about 100 Hz of bandwidth
        and about 351 bytes/minute or about 58 words/min (probably closer to 45 WPM after ARQ overhead). That is fast enough for manual typing. The signal would be about 50% wider than PSK31
        >
        > 2 FEC bits per symbol one being the
        Viterbi Trellis code and one being the layered Reed Solomon. That should be very robust in all but the worst extreme multipath propagation. Layering two codes is very productive as they complement each other (Viterbi is near optimum for random errors but not good for bursts. Reed Solomon is excellent for bursts)
        >
        > I may have some time this summer to play with that while I am
        on our RV trip out west to Wyoming for 2 months.
        >
        > Your comments
        welcome.
        >
        > Rick, KN6KB
        >
        >
        > From: dk3cw@...
        > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:15 PM
        > To:
        href="mailto:WINMOR%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:WINMOR%40yahoogroups.com ; mailto:Winlink_Programs_Group%40yahoogroups.com ; mailto:V4Protocol%40yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [V4Protocol] RE: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC
        posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
        >
        >
        >
        >
        Rick,
        >
        > thanks for the improvements to the WINMOR protocol. Just
        tested with RMS DB0ZAV, who is still using version 1.4.7.3. Works fine!
        >
        >
        >
        > Is there an implementation of 32QAM into the V4
        Soundcard TNC planned?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > vy 73 de
        Jakob DK3CW
        >
        > EmComm liaison officer Frankfurt / Main
        >
        ARDF-unit Hessen
        > www.dk3cw.de
        >
        > When All Else Fails, Ham
        Radio Works
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Ursprüngliche
        Nachricht-----
        > Von: "Rick Muething" [rmuething@...]
        > Gesendet:
        Mi. 15.05.2013 20:56
        > An:
        href="mailto:Winlink_Programs_Group%40yahoogroups.com">mailto:Winlink_Programs_Group%40yahoogroups.com, mailto:WINMOR%40yahoogroups.com, mailto:MARS_Winlink%40yahoogroups.com
        >
        Betreff: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > All,
        >
        > Doing continued refinement of the 32QAM mode. This version (which
        should be backward compatible with both the 1.4.7.3 and earlier versions) now supports 16QAM in place of 8PSK and 32QAM in place of 16PSK. This should provide improved robustness when connecting to a similar version. I am running this new version with additional logging on my RMS Trimode and would welcome test connections. To activate these higher speed modes (in either 2 carrier or 8 carrier channels) it is necessary to have some fairly large (say 5+ k) messages to insure it tries these higher speed modulations. You should enable the WINMOR TNC debug log (On the WINMOR TNC form Help, basic setup, check Enable WM TNC debug log, Update ini) as this will capture some internal measurements of how well the 16 or 32 QAM modes are working.
        >
        > For those that have
        asked (or for anyone who really cares! ) QAM means Quadrature Amplitude Modulation where both the carrier amplitude and phase are changed (as opposed to PSK (Phase Shift Keying) where only the phase is modulated. This permits sending one extra bit (two amplitude levels) per symbol and this extra FEC bit is used to improve the robustness of these higher modulation modes. You will see this as rings of symbols (inner and outer rings). If the signals are very good you can make out the individual symbol clusters (16 for 16QAM, 32 for 32QAM) but most of the time they are so smeared (by propagation) that they look more like fuzzy concentric rings. The FEC bits help ?recover? these smeared symbols to yield good decoding.
        >
        > I have posted 1.4.7.5 on both the WINMOR Yahoo
        group and the Winlink WINMOR TNC FTP ftp://autoupdate.winlink.org/WINMOR%20TNC/
        >
        > 73,
        >
        > Rick Muething, KN6KB
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht Ende-----
        >
        >
        >
        > ---
        >
        > Alle Postfächer an einem Ort.
        Jetzt wechseln und E-Mail-Adresse mitnehmen! Rundum glücklich mit freenetMail
        >

      • la7um
        Rick. My issue at the time being is being asked to line up or advice NRRL related to a national digital addendum to a Voice ned. FSK modes seems the Winner. 1:
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 16, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Rick. My issue at the time being is being asked to line up or advice NRRL related to a national digital addendum to a Voice ned. FSK modes seems the Winner.

          1: I have been, and contine to promote Winlink, also in cooperation with Sweden and other Norwegians.

          But for ONE to many: Call it NET CONTROL, I have by pure luck been informed about Voice of Americas ongoing weekend tests of digital text and picture using a 50 year old AM transmitter in North Carolina.

          http://voaradiogram.net/

          So downloading FLDIGI, FLMSG, FLAMP, MMSSTV, and EasyPal (DRM Based pictures) I have had a hard time learning new stuff. My signaLink does the job.

          It has been my only opportunity trying that SW.

          They introduced UTF8, (double characters tranferred for the special characters only as I understand it) amongst others choosable as well.

          Since it is only 3 extra norwegian, swedish, and some german characters and most of the alphabet is standard ascii, it doesn't seem adding much overhead. Each of them has double charachters transferred.
          Accents tested in Spanish and French. Working very well indeed.

          Greek or Cyrillic alphabet might be another task.

          Main learning has been that MFSK 16 is the mode banging through every type of noise and weak signals, about 350Hz, (within a 500Hz channel). This happens when voice is unreadable
          They have tested every thinkable mode and speed Including Olivia and Thor and a lot of others. MFSK 16 beats them all.

          (FM and local transmissions is another issue).

          This off course is broadcast, but that is what we need when voice controll of a net does not get through, and can work on 30m where we cannot talk.
          Perhaps HAMS on USB can use this.

          SW works on Linux, MAC and PC, so everybody can participate.
          Then run their WINLINK Mails as they like. RMS EX PC +NEWMACs/Parallel
          AirMAil Linux/Wine and Older MACs/Parallel.

          At the time being my recommendeation has been Pactor 2 Fec or arq in some time slots, V4Chat in other time slots, and Leader stations MUST be able running both but in different time slots.

          Perhaps MFSK16 might be a better solution for coordinating networks having broader time slots using it all the time. The experience from VOA has been impressive.

          Then nobody is excluded for getting directions.

          In other main or standard time slots they ALL shall do Winlink mail in every free possible way.

          FSK modulation stands out. Good for Aurora (or least bad).
          This is very clear in WINMOR as well.

          People get surprised when I get them (one by one) to try V4Chat, how well it works. But they miss the few 8bit characters.

          UTF8 as recently solved in FLDIGI makes MFSK16 a joyful pleasure typing QSO or manual info between EU countries.
          Not slick, but bunches of FEC and redundancy.

          Well. Just some night thoughts before the RV tour.
          73. Finn/LA7UM


          --- In V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Muething" <rmuething@...> wrote:
          >
          > Finn,
          >
          > There is less to be gained by using QAM8 on the 4PSK mode. There is already pretty heavy FEC. (code rate = 1/2) before RS. Though it probably won’t be too hard to test it. First I have to find the bug in the QAM16 implementation....it works but it is not correcting as it should!
          >
          >
          > Re MFSK16. You have to decide what do you want. If you want the absolute robustness you use wide band, very high redundancy and maximum power. MFSK16 takes up a lot of room for its throughput but it is robust because of all the redundancy. But a narrower mode like QAM8 that is carrying say 2 FEC bits/data bit (code rate = 1/3) can be very robust since it puts all the power in a smaller bandwidth (higher S/N). The biggest problem with the QAM modes will come with very strong multipath though lower baud rates help this.
          >
          > I would like to include UTF8 capability (pure binary) in a mode but it does slow down the text (8 or 16 data bits vs. 7 for ASCII ).
          >
          > Rick
          >
          >
          >
          > From: la7um
          > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 8:56 PM
          > To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
          >
          >
          > Rick. How robust would this be compared to MFSK16 used as ARQ? And what about UTF8 ?. I am searcing for a commom denomintator for Aurora net control.
          >
          > 4PSK changed to 8QAM in WINMOR seem the next step regardless of BW modes.
          >
          > THEN rethink about when gearing from one BW to another in WINMOR.
          >
          > For QSO SPEED, it seems for me that the most robust mode possible at any given time seems of interest.
          >
          > After sun burst last day it was mandatory staying LOW in frequency, and in addition forget about all wide bands. Stick to 500Hz BW for making the tests in new WINMOR regardless of distance to my local server.
          >
          > Finn/LA7UM
          >
          > --- In mailto:V4Protocol%40yahoogroups.com, "Rick Muething" <rmuething@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Jakob,
          > >
          > > Well I hadn’t thought about it much...I’m pretty swamped. But it would be possible to build something like this:
          > >
          > > Replace the 4FSK modulation in V4 with 8QAM. The current 4FSK carries one FEC bit and one user bit per symbol. 8QAM could carry 3 bits/symbol would be used something like:
          > > 1 user bit per symbol (46.875 baud give about 100 Hz of bandwidth and about 351 bytes/minute or about 58 words/min (probably closer to 45 WPM after ARQ overhead). That is fast enough for manual typing. The signal would be about 50% wider than PSK31
          > >
          > > 2 FEC bits per symbol one being the Viterbi Trellis code and one being the layered Reed Solomon. That should be very robust in all but the worst extreme multipath propagation. Layering two codes is very productive as they complement each other (Viterbi is near optimum for random errors but not good for bursts. Reed Solomon is excellent for bursts)
          > >
          > > I may have some time this summer to play with that while I am on our RV trip out west to Wyoming for 2 months.
          > >
          > > Your comments welcome.
          > >
          > > Rick, KN6KB
          > >
          > >
          > > From: dk3cw@
          > > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 3:15 PM
          > > To: mailto:WINMOR%40yahoogroups.com ; mailto:Winlink_Programs_Group%40yahoogroups.com ; mailto:V4Protocol%40yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [V4Protocol] RE: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Rick,
          > >
          > > thanks for the improvements to the WINMOR protocol. Just tested with RMS DB0ZAV, who is still using version 1.4.7.3. Works fine!
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Is there an implementation of 32QAM into the V4 Soundcard TNC planned?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > vy 73 de Jakob DK3CW
          > >
          > > EmComm liaison officer Frankfurt / Main
          > > ARDF-unit Hessen
          > > www.dk3cw.de
          > >
          > > When All Else Fails, Ham Radio Works
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
          > > Von: "Rick Muething" [rmuething@]
          > > Gesendet: Mi. 15.05.2013 20:56
          > > An: mailto:Winlink_Programs_Group%40yahoogroups.com, mailto:WINMOR%40yahoogroups.com, mailto:MARS_Winlink%40yahoogroups.com
          > > Betreff: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > All,
          > >
          > > Doing continued refinement of the 32QAM mode. This version (which should be backward compatible with both the 1.4.7.3 and earlier versions) now supports 16QAM in place of 8PSK and 32QAM in place of 16PSK. This should provide improved robustness when connecting to a similar version. I am running this new version with additional logging on my RMS Trimode and would welcome test connections. To activate these higher speed modes (in either 2 carrier or 8 carrier channels) it is necessary to have some fairly large (say 5+ k) messages to insure it tries these higher speed modulations. You should enable the WINMOR TNC debug log (On the WINMOR TNC form Help, basic setup, check Enable WM TNC debug log, Update ini) as this will capture some internal measurements of how well the 16 or 32 QAM modes are working.
          > >
          > > For those that have asked (or for anyone who really cares! ) QAM means Quadrature Amplitude Modulation where both the carrier amplitude and phase are changed (as opposed to PSK (Phase Shift Keying) where only the phase is modulated. This permits sending one extra bit (two amplitude levels) per symbol and this extra FEC bit is used to improve the robustness of these higher modulation modes. You will see this as rings of symbols (inner and outer rings). If the signals are very good you can make out the individual symbol clusters (16 for 16QAM, 32 for 32QAM) but most of the time they are so smeared (by propagation) that they look more like fuzzy concentric rings. The FEC bits help ?recover? these smeared symbols to yield good decoding.
          > >
          > > I have posted 1.4.7.5 on both the WINMOR Yahoo group and the Winlink WINMOR TNC FTP ftp://autoupdate.winlink.org/WINMOR%20TNC/
          > >
          > > 73,
          > >
          > > Rick Muething, KN6KB
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht Ende-----
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ---
          > >
          > > Alle Postfächer an einem Ort. Jetzt wechseln und E-Mail-Adresse mitnehmen! Rundum glücklich mit freenetMail
          > >
          >
        • Robin Hodgson
          Hi Finn, I am very interested in your statement that you find that V4 Chat works well. My experiences over the last couple of years (and various versions of
          Message 4 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Finn,

            I am very interested in your statement that you find that V4 Chat works well.  My experiences over the last couple of years (and various versions of the software) is that it does not work reliably in an ARQ environment.
            I have tried with various computers, interfaces and radios working with different powers/frequencies/distances/propagation conditions... the ARQ session can nearly always be established eventually.  However, on the second turn around (regardless which station initiated the call) the session always times out.  I once managed a QSO (2000km) which went to three turn arounds before timing-out, however we were using different versons of V4, so that could be the reason.
            I spent a couple of weeks doing a detailed analysis  when working locally (3 km path,  59+ signal on 20 meters) using the debug logs of both stations.  In all cases the latency of both stations is between 40 - 70 mS and they use the same version of the software. My conclusion was that there is a timing issue in the software.  I asked Rick for help, and he told me that it was essential to be totally familiar with the details of the program in order to understand the problem.  He suggested I send a dump of the logs to him and he would look at them when he had some time.  I have asked about progress, but I understand that V4 is very low on Rick's priorities list!
            How have you configured your system so that you can demonstrate that it does work well?

            73  Robin, 9H1ZZ


            To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
            From: la7um@...
            Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:47:39 +0000
            Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP

             
            Rick. My issue at the time being is being asked to line up or advice NRRL related to a national digital addendum to a Voice ned. FSK modes seems the Winner.

            1: I have been, and contine to promote Winlink, also in cooperation with Sweden and other Norwegians.

            But for ONE to many: Call it NET CONTROL, I have by pure luck been informed about Voice of Americas ongoing weekend tests of digital text and picture using a 50 year old AM transmitter in North Carolina.

            http://voaradiogram.net/

            So downloading FLDIGI, FLMSG, FLAMP, MMSSTV, and EasyPal (DRM Based pictures) I have had a hard time learning new stuff. My signaLink does the job.

            It has been my only opportunity trying that SW.

            They introduced UTF8, (double characters tranferred for the special characters only as I understand it) amongst others choosable as well.

            Since it is only 3 extra norwegian, swedish, and some german characters and most of the alphabet is standard ascii, it doesn't seem adding much overhead. Each of them has double charachters transferred.
            Accents tested in Spanish and French. Working very well indeed.

            Greek or Cyrillic alphabet might be another task.

            Main learning has been that MFSK 16 is the mode banging through every type of noise and weak signals, about 350Hz, (within a 500Hz channel). This happens when voice is unreadable
            They have tested every thinkable mode and speed Including Olivia and Thor and a lot of others. MFSK 16 beats them all.

            (FM and local transmissions is another issue).

            This off course is broadcast, but that is what we need when voice controll of a net does not get through, and can work on 30m where we cannot talk.
            Perhaps HAMS on USB can use this.

            SW works on Linux, MAC and PC, so everybody can participate.
            Then run their WINLINK Mails as they like. RMS EX PC +NEWMACs/Parallel
            AirMAil Linux/Wine and Older MACs/Parallel.

            At the time being my recommendeation has been Pactor 2 Fec or arq in some time slots, V4Chat in other time slots, and Leader stations MUST be able running both but in different time slots.

            Perhaps MFSK16 might be a better solution for coordinating networks having broader time slots using it all the time. The experience from VOA has been impressive.

            Then nobody is excluded for getting directions.

            In other main or standard time slots they ALL shall do Winlink mail in every free possible way.

            FSK modulation stands out. Good for Aurora (or least bad).
            This is very clear in WINMOR as well.

            People get surprised when I get them (one by one) to try V4Chat, how well it works. But they miss the few 8bit characters.

            UTF8 as recently solved in FLDIGI makes MFSK16 a joyful pleasure typing QSO or manual info between EU countries.
            Not slick, but bunches of FEC and redundancy.

            Well. Just some night thoughts before the RV tour.
            73. Finn/LA7UM


          • RICK WESTERFIELD
            My experience with V4 has been completely different though I find it to be sensitive to RF in the shack. Once I put up a few more resonant dipole antennae,
            Message 5 of 11 , Jun 17, 2013
            • 0 Attachment

              My experience with V4 has been completely different though I find it to be sensitive to RF in the shack. Once I put up a few more resonant dipole antennae, things got a lot more dependable. I can say the same about RMS Express - better antenna, better connections.

              Rick KH2DF
              AFA6RW MARS

              Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android



              From: Robin Hodgson <robin_a_hodgson@...>;
              To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com <v4protocol@yahoogroups.com>;
              Subject: RE: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
              Sent: Mon, Jun 17, 2013 3:58:29 PM

               

              Hi Finn,

              I am very interested in your statement that you find that V4 Chat works well.  My experiences over the last couple of years (and various versions of the software) is that it does not work reliably in an ARQ environment.
              I have tried with various computers, interfaces and radios working with different powers/frequencies/distances/propagation conditions... the ARQ session can nearly always be established eventually.  However, on the second turn around (regardless which station initiated the call) the session always times out.  I once managed a QSO (2000km) which went to three turn arounds before timing-out, however we were using different versons of V4, so that could be the reason.
              I spent a couple of weeks doing a detailed analysis  when working locally (3 km path,  59+ signal on 20 meters) using the debug logs of both stations.  In all cases the latency of both stations is between 40 - 70 mS and they use the same version of the software. My conclusion was that there is a timing issue in the software.  I asked Rick for help, and he told me that it was essential to be totally familiar with the details of the program in order to understand the problem.  He suggested I send a dump of the logs to him and he would look at them when he had some time.  I have asked about progress, but I understand that V4 is very low on Rick's priorities list!
              How have you configured your system so that you can demonstrate that it does work well?

              73  Robin, 9H1ZZ


              To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
              From: la7um@...
              Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2013 01:47:39 +0000
              Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP

               
              Rick. My issue at the time being is being asked to line up or advice NRRL related to a national digital addendum to a Voice ned. FSK modes seems the Winner.

              1: I have been, and contine to promote Winlink, also in cooperation with Sweden and other Norwegians.

              But for ONE to many: Call it NET CONTROL, I have by pure luck been informed about Voice of Americas ongoing weekend tests of digital text and picture using a 50 year old AM transmitter in North Carolina.

              http://voaradiogram.net/

              So downloading FLDIGI, FLMSG, FLAMP, MMSSTV, and EasyPal (DRM Based pictures) I have had a hard time learning new stuff. My signaLink does the job.

              It has been my only opportunity trying that SW.

              They introduced UTF8, (double characters tranferred for the special characters only as I understand it) amongst others choosable as well.

              Since it is only 3 extra norwegian, swedish, and some german characters and most of the alphabet is standard ascii, it doesn't seem adding much overhead. Each of them has double charachters transferred.
              Accents tested in Spanish and French. Working very well indeed.

              Greek or Cyrillic alphabet might be another task.

              Main learning has been that MFSK 16 is the mode banging through every type of noise and weak signals, about 350Hz, (within a 500Hz channel). This happens when voice is unreadable
              They have tested every thinkable mode and speed Including Olivia and Thor and a lot of others. MFSK 16 beats them all.

              (FM and local transmissions is another issue).

              This off course is broadcast, but that is what we need when voice controll of a net does not get through, and can work on 30m where we cannot talk.
              Perhaps HAMS on USB can use this.

              SW works on Linux, MAC and PC, so everybody can participate.
              Then run their WINLINK Mails as they like. RMS EX PC +NEWMACs/Parallel
              AirMAil Linux/Wine and Older MACs/Parallel.

              At the time being my recommendeation has been Pactor 2 Fec or arq in some time slots, V4Chat in other time slots, and Leader stations MUST be able running both but in different time slots.

              Perhaps MFSK16 might be a better solution for coordinating networks having broader time slots using it all the time. The experience from VOA has been impressive.

              Then nobody is excluded for getting directions.

              In other main or standard time slots they ALL shall do Winlink mail in every free possible way.

              FSK modulation stands out. Good for Aurora (or least bad).
              This is very clear in WINMOR as well.

              People get surprised when I get them (one by one) to try V4Chat, how well it works. But they miss the few 8bit characters.

              UTF8 as recently solved in FLDIGI makes MFSK16 a joyful pleasure typing QSO or manual info between EU countries.
              Not slick, but bunches of FEC and redundancy.

              Well. Just some night thoughts before the RV tour.
              73. Finn/LA7UM


            • la7um
              Robin. RFI is destructive. Balanced antenna, and less is more... Else: Main error for timeouts is clients not moving what they type into tx-buffer, or messing
              Message 6 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Robin. RFI is destructive. Balanced antenna, and less is more...

                Else: Main error for timeouts is clients not moving what they type into tx-buffer, or messing too much within.

                Let them hook for <CR or Double Space> as a means of moving data to transfer. The Double Space is genious for forcing text into TX buffer without changin line.

                I removed the: Enable Full Duplex on FEC.
                Did not understand that to work.

                I use ARQ timeout (seconds) 180.

                Do NOT use the first option Ctrl CR for moving letters into tx buffer.
                It is a killer. The session is idling indefinitely when the operators does not know how and why it works.
                It MAY be elegant since you can "post edit" back several lines since they are not ready for TX, but you waste link time.

                I have had successful QSOs across the atlantic from Norway to Canada.

                My gear: G5RV, IC706 original, SignaLink USB. Nothing special.

                The MODE IS good. Is worth further polishing.
                For pure broadcast MFSK16 may be better than V4Chat FEC, but you don't have any ARQ in MFSK16, and it would not be so "slick" or quick in turnovers.

                When Skipping the CAT RIG control I can have RMS E/WINMOR, V4Chat and FLDIGI running in parallel. No portconflicts.
                When getting a link or session I just shut down the other programs for freeing memory.

                From Oslo to UK, Italy, Germany, Austria

                From Oslo 60 deg north to Finmark top of Norway 70 deg north. And to Finland.

                Locally 6 km in noisy 80m surroundings.

                The last one was across Norway to Bergen to a retired Military HF guy having been through it all from RTTY to AMTOR, and Pactor 2 and 3.

                He was amazed when I talked him into what to do and we did the qso.

                Just like old Amtor, only without errors......well errors whenever he used the three norwegian letter. It always comes two completely other pr each letter.

                So ALL Europeens have "trouble", or must write like old AMTOR / RTTY limited characters/letters.

                UTF8 is the EU Standard, and is highly wished. Ascii is "stone age".

                73. Finn/LA7UM


                --- In V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com, RICK WESTERFIELD <r_lwesterfield@...> wrote:
                >
                > My experience with V4 has been completely different though I find it to be sensitive to RF in the shack. Once I put up a few more resonant dipole antennae, things got a lot more dependable.  I can say the same about RMS Express - better antenna, better connections.
                >
                > Rick KH2DF
                > AFA6RW MARS
                >
                > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
                >
              • Robin Hodgson
                Thanks for the hints, Finn. My antennas are resonant (at transmit frequency) dipoles with baluns. Antennas are situated 50 meters from the shack. All audio
                Message 7 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks for the hints, Finn.

                  My antennas are resonant  (at transmit frequency) dipoles with baluns.
                  Antennas are situated 50 meters from the shack.
                  All audio  cables have RF toroid suppressors.
                  So,  I don't think I have RF interference.
                  The problem is once the ARQ session is established and after the first data exchange, both stations get locked in Rx mode (a disallowed state).
                  You cannot get data from the Tx buffer of either station then. No matter what code(s) for a data move you choose (I tried them all!).
                  After which you will get a session timeout (I also chose 180 seconds).
                  I (and my partners) are all using the same release of the software V4Chat 1.0.4.0 with SW TNC 1.0.2.0

                  I agree V4Chat should be a good mode (theoretically) but there must be a timing bug somewhere.
                  At least the problem is reproducible, so I am expecting the software author should be able to find it
                  with the session debug dumps I sent him last year. 

                  73  Robin, 9H1ZZ


                  To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
                  From: la7um@...
                  Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:06:56 +0000
                  Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP

                   
                  Robin. RFI is destructive. Balanced antenna, and less is more...

                  Else: Main error for timeouts is clients not moving what they type into tx-buffer, or messing too much within.

                  Let them hook for <CR or Double Space> as a means of moving data to transfer. The Double Space is genious for forcing text into TX buffer without changin line.

                  I removed the: Enable Full Duplex on FEC.
                  Did not understand that to work.

                  I use ARQ timeout (seconds) 180.

                  Do NOT use the first option Ctrl CR for moving letters into tx buffer.
                  It is a killer. The session is idling indefinitely when the operators does not know how and why it works.
                  It MAY be elegant since you can "post edit" back several lines since they are not ready for TX, but you waste link time.

                  I have had successful QSOs across the atlantic from Norway to Canada.

                  My gear: G5RV, IC706 original, SignaLink USB. Nothing special.

                  The MODE IS good. Is worth further polishing.
                  For pure broadcast MFSK16 may be better than V4Chat FEC, but you don't have any ARQ in MFSK16, and it would not be so "slick" or quick in turnovers.

                  When Skipping the CAT RIG control I can have RMS E/WINMOR, V4Chat and FLDIGI running in parallel. No portconflicts.
                  When getting a link or session I just shut down the other programs for freeing memory.

                  From Oslo to UK, Italy, Germany, Austria

                  From Oslo 60 deg north to Finmark top of Norway 70 deg north. And to Finland.

                  Locally 6 km in noisy 80m surroundings.

                  The last one was across Norway to Bergen to a retired Military HF guy having been through it all from RTTY to AMTOR, and Pactor 2 and 3.

                  He was amazed when I talked him into what to do and we did the qso.

                  Just like old Amtor, only without errors......well errors whenever he used the three norwegian letter. It always comes two completely other pr each letter.

                  So ALL Europeens have "trouble", or must write like old AMTOR / RTTY limited characters/letters.

                  UTF8 is the EU Standard, and is highly wished. Ascii is "stone age".

                  73. Finn/LA7UM

                  --- In V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com, RICK WESTERFIELD <r_lwesterfield@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My experience with V4 has been completely different though I find it to be sensitive to RF in the shack. Once I put up a few more resonant dipole antennae, things got a lot more dependable.  I can say the same about RMS Express - better antenna, better connections.
                  >
                  > Rick KH2DF
                  > AFA6RW MARS
                  >
                  > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
                  >


                • Rick Muething
                  Robin, I am the author but I have a lot on my plate. I just spent several months working on the WINMOR TNC (which I also authored) and the RMS Trimode server
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Robin,
                     
                    I  am the author but I have a lot on my plate.  I just spent several months working on the WINMOR TNC (which I also authored) and the RMS Trimode server and just don’t have enough hours in the day to put in any more right now.
                     
                    There really shouldn’t be any timing bugs if the latency measurements at each end are within spec.  But analyzing the timing takes the following.
                     
                    The V4TNC Debug logs must be enabled at each end...not just one end. A clean capture of the session needs to be made. And then I would need probably 3 –4 days of detailed analysis to get a handle on IF there is a problem and what it might be.  Time Right now I don’t have.   There is a lot of effort that has to go into develping a protocol and coding it. For example the WINMOR protocol probably has close to 3 man-years effort at this time.  V4 maybe half of that (some of WINMOR is included in V4 ).
                     
                    I wish I had more time on this stuff but I don’t. 
                     
                    73,

                    Rick Muething, KN6KB
                     
                     
                    Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:47 PM
                    Subject: RE: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
                     
                     

                    Thanks for the hints, Finn.

                    My antennas are resonant  (at transmit frequency) dipoles with baluns.
                    Antennas are situated 50 meters from the shack.
                    All audio  cables have RF toroid suppressors.
                    So,  I don't think I have RF interference.
                    The problem is once the ARQ session is established and after the first data exchange, both stations get locked in Rx mode (a disallowed state).
                    You cannot get data from the Tx buffer of either station then. No matter what code(s) for a data move you choose (I tried them all!).
                    After which you will get a session timeout (I also chose 180 seconds).
                    I (and my partners) are all using the same release of the software V4Chat 1.0.4.0 with SW TNC 1.0.2.0

                    I agree V4Chat should be a good mode (theoretically) but there must be a timing bug somewhere.
                    At least the problem is reproducible, so I am expecting the software author should be able to find it
                    with the session debug dumps I sent him last year. 

                    73  Robin, 9H1ZZ


                    To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
                    From: la7um@...
                    Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:06:56 +0000
                    Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP

                     
                    Robin. RFI is destructive. Balanced antenna, and less is more...

                    Else: Main error for timeouts is clients not moving what they type into tx-buffer, or messing too much within.

                    Let them hook for <CR or Double Space> as a means of moving data to transfer. The Double Space is genious for forcing text into TX buffer without changin line.

                    I removed the: Enable Full Duplex on FEC.
                    Did not understand that to work.

                    I use ARQ timeout (seconds) 180.

                    Do NOT use the first option Ctrl CR for moving letters into tx buffer.
                    It is a killer. The session is idling indefinitely when the operators does not know how and why it works.
                    It MAY be elegant since you can "post edit" back several lines since they are not ready for TX, but you waste link time.

                    I have had successful QSOs across the atlantic from Norway to Canada.

                    My gear: G5RV, IC706 original, SignaLink USB. Nothing special.

                    The MODE IS good. Is worth further polishing.
                    For pure broadcast MFSK16 may be better than V4Chat FEC, but you don't have any ARQ in MFSK16, and it would not be so "slick" or quick in turnovers.

                    When Skipping the CAT RIG control I can have RMS E/WINMOR, V4Chat and FLDIGI running in parallel. No portconflicts.
                    When getting a link or session I just shut down the other programs for freeing memory.

                    From Oslo to UK, Italy, Germany, Austria

                    From Oslo 60 deg north to Finmark top of Norway 70 deg north. And to Finland.

                    Locally 6 km in noisy 80m surroundings.

                    The last one was across Norway to Bergen to a retired Military HF guy having been through it all from RTTY to AMTOR, and Pactor 2 and 3.

                    He was amazed when I talked him into what to do and we did the qso.

                    Just like old Amtor, only without errors......well errors whenever he used the three norwegian letter. It always comes two completely other pr each letter.

                    So ALL Europeens have "trouble", or must write like old AMTOR / RTTY limited characters/letters.

                    UTF8 is the EU Standard, and is highly wished. Ascii is "stone age".

                    73. Finn/LA7UM

                    --- In mailto:V4Protocol%40yahoogroups.com, RICK WESTERFIELD <r_lwesterfield@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > My experience
                    with V4 has been completely different though I find it to be sensitive to RF in the shack. Once I put up a few more resonant dipole antennae, things got a lot more dependable.  I can say the same about RMS Express - better antenna, better connections.
                    >
                    > Rick KH2DF
                    > AFA6RW MARS
                    >
                    > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
                    >


                  • Robin Hodgson
                    Hi Rick, I do appreciate your situation, and the priority you give to supporting other software. When I tried V4, I did everything as you suggested and
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 19, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Rick,

                      I do appreciate your situation, and the priority you give to supporting other software.

                      When I tried V4, I did everything as you suggested and recorded the session using the Debug logs at both stations.
                      The stations' clocks had to be sychronised to within 1 second (or better) in order to see exactly what was happening
                      when comparing the logs. I then spent  about two weeks examining the logs, but without the fine details of your software
                      design and specifications, it proved impossible to discover how the process got locked up, and even worse,
                      why there was no apparent recovery path except by session time out. 
                      While being prepared to assist in any way I can, I am a system designer and not a computer programmer, 
                      so have to leave it to you.
                      I do follow activities on the V4 Protocol reflector, and was pleased to see now that some users have had success
                      working with this mode. This led me to wonder how they implemented V4...  possibly a different version is now available?

                      Vy 73  de Robin, 9H1ZZ





                      To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
                      From: rmuething@...
                      Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:17:28 -0400
                      Subject: Re: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP

                       

                      Robin,
                       
                      I  am the author but I have a lot on my plate.  I just spent several months working on the WINMOR TNC (which I also authored) and the RMS Trimode server and just don’t have enough hours in the day to put in any more right now.
                       
                      There really shouldn’t be any timing bugs if the latency measurements at each end are within spec.  But analyzing the timing takes the following.
                       
                      The V4TNC Debug logs must be enabled at each end...not just one end. A clean capture of the session needs to be made. And then I would need probably 3 –4 days of detailed analysis to get a handle on IF there is a problem and what it might be.  Time Right now I don’t have.   There is a lot of effort that has to go into develping a protocol and coding it. For example the WINMOR protocol probably has close to 3 man-years effort at this time.  V4 maybe half of that (some of WINMOR is included in V4 ).
                       
                      I wish I had more time on this stuff but I don’t. 
                       
                      73,

                      Rick Muething, KN6KB
                       
                       
                      Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 7:47 PM
                      Subject: RE: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP
                       
                       

                      Thanks for the hints, Finn.

                      My antennas are resonant  (at transmit frequency) dipoles with baluns.
                      Antennas are situated 50 meters from the shack.
                      All audio  cables have RF toroid suppressors.
                      So,  I don't think I have RF interference.
                      The problem is once the ARQ session is established and after the first data exchange, both stations get locked in Rx mode (a disallowed state).
                      You cannot get data from the Tx buffer of either station then. No matter what code(s) for a data move you choose (I tried them all!).
                      After which you will get a session timeout (I also chose 180 seconds).
                      I (and my partners) are all using the same release of the software V4Chat 1.0.4.0 with SW TNC 1.0.2.0

                      I agree V4Chat should be a good mode (theoretically) but there must be a timing bug somewhere.
                      At least the problem is reproducible, so I am expecting the software author should be able to find it
                      with the session debug dumps I sent him last year. 

                      73  Robin, 9H1ZZ


                      To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
                      From: la7um@...
                      Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 21:06:56 +0000
                      Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: [WINMOR] Test version 1.4.7.5 of WINMOR TNC posted on Yahoo and Winlink User FTP

                       
                      Robin. RFI is destructive. Balanced antenna, and less is more...

                      Else: Main error for timeouts is clients not moving what they type into tx-buffer, or messing too much within.

                      Let them hook for <CR or Double Space> as a means of moving data to transfer. The Double Space is genious for forcing text into TX buffer without changin line.

                      I removed the: Enable Full Duplex on FEC.
                      Did not understand that to work.

                      I use ARQ timeout (seconds) 180.

                      Do NOT use the first option Ctrl CR for moving letters into tx buffer.
                      It is a killer. The session is idling indefinitely when the operators does not know how and why it works.
                      It MAY be elegant since you can "post edit" back several lines since they are not ready for TX, but you waste link time.

                      I have had successful QSOs across the atlantic from Norway to Canada.

                      My gear: G5RV, IC706 original, SignaLink USB. Nothing special.

                      The MODE IS good. Is worth further polishing.
                      For pure broadcast MFSK16 may be better than V4Chat FEC, but you don't have any ARQ in MFSK16, and it would not be so "slick" or quick in turnovers.

                      When Skipping the CAT RIG control I can have RMS E/WINMOR, V4Chat and FLDIGI running in parallel. No portconflicts.
                      When getting a link or session I just shut down the other programs for freeing memory.

                      From Oslo to UK, Italy, Germany, Austria

                      From Oslo 60 deg north to Finmark top of Norway 70 deg north. And to Finland.

                      Locally 6 km in noisy 80m surroundings.

                      The last one was across Norway to Bergen to a retired Military HF guy having been through it all from RTTY to AMTOR, and Pactor 2 and 3.

                      He was amazed when I talked him into what to do and we did the qso.

                      Just like old Amtor, only without errors......well errors whenever he used the three norwegian letter. It always comes two completely other pr each letter.

                      So ALL Europeens have "trouble", or must write like old AMTOR / RTTY limited characters/letters.

                      UTF8 is the EU Standard, and is highly wished. Ascii is "stone age".

                      73. Finn/LA7UM

                      --- In mailto:V4Protocol%40yahoogroups.com, RICK WESTERFIELD <r_lwesterfield@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > My experience
                      with V4 has been completely different though I find it to be sensitive to RF in the shack. Once I put up a few more resonant dipole antennae, things got a lot more dependable.  I can say the same about RMS Express - better antenna, better connections.
                      >
                      > Rick KH2DF
                      > AFA6RW MARS
                      >
                      > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
                      >



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