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Re: [V4Protocol] V4 vs ALE400

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  • Rick Muething
    Glen, Thanks for the post and the tests. I have not had the chance to compare V4 to ALE400 over the HF simulator where it is possible to create repeatable
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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      Glen,
       
      Thanks for the post and the tests. I have not had the chance to compare V4 to ALE400 over the HF simulator where it is possible to create repeatable channels for testing. 
       
      V4 could be made more robust by using more bandwidth (currently 200 Hz wide vs. ALE400’s 400 Hz).  I am experimenting with a new expansion of V4 using narrow bandwidth (400-500 Hz) CHIRP modulation (continuously varying FSK).  Which looks promising to be very robust over poor multipath conditions (e.g. Polar transmissions, severe selective fading)  It will take a while to refine the math and DSP needed for this modulation and to integrate the CHIRP option into the V4Chat software.
       
      73,
       
      Rick Muething, KN6KB
       
       
      Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 10:14 AM
      Subject: [V4Protocol] V4 vs ALE400
       
       

      All,
      Both myself and Kirk (K6KAR) did some testing on 20 meters yesterday. We tried V4 vs ALE400, V4 beat ALE400 in both performance and ease of use. ALE400 seems very confusing at times where V4 is pretty straight forward. ALE400 had many more retries then V4 did. V4 appears to be much more robust. I wonder if anyone else has tried something similar?
      I have been QRV on 14.073 during the day, but I can't always be in the shack,so I missed two other stations who called CQ yesterday darn it!
      Very 73 to all, Glenn WB2LMV


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    • Glenn L. Roeser
      Hello Rick, It was during fading that the V4 program did better, and for some reason and I do not know why, the V4 program was running about 2 s units stronger
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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        Hello Rick,
        It was during fading that the V4 program did better, and for some reason and I do not know why, the V4 program was running about 2 s units stronger on peaks. Maybe due to a more concentrated audio response from the soundcard?
        It isn't often anymore where we all are experencing good band conditions, so any mode that can print at 100% and not crawl along is a plus. I always liked Olivia because it performed well, but it is very slow and if I used a different configuration to speed things up some, I would lose data. I enjoy the speed of V4 because I am not a fast typist and I don't feel as if I'm being chased by a wide boar trying to keep up with the buffer. Thanks for a great program.
        Very 73, Glenn WB2LMV

      • Ted Trostle
        I have to disagree with the idea V4 is more robust than ALE400. If ALE400 is having retries, a vital setting in ALE400 was missed. Assuming MultiPSK is being
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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          I have to disagree with the idea V4 is more robust than ALE400. If ALE400 is having retries, a vital setting in ALE400 was missed.

          Assuming MultiPSK is being used, click on Options in the ALE400 screen (1/3 the way from the top, in the middle almost). Inthe Options screen at the bottom, click on "Additional waiting delay of one second...."

          I have been successfully using ALE400 for almost 2 yrs every day to communicate with K1DOW in Florida on 20 and 30 mtrs and the 1 sec delay addition fixed our link issues and data flow...it is flawless.

          Yesterday AM we tested ALE400 running 1/2 watt and had perfect flow and connection on 14074 for almost 30 minutes.

          --
          Ted, WB2LOU

          You cannot change history, but you can make history !
          The legal cure for Ignorance is Education. The Stupidity of many is incurable.

        • Phil Williams
          So, what your are saying is that you need to massage ALE-400 more to get it to work properly. ... -- Phil KA1GMN Experimental Station - WF9XJD
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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            So, what your are saying is that you need to massage ALE-400 more to get it to work properly.

            On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Ted Trostle <ttrostle35@...> wrote:
             

            I have to disagree with the idea V4 is more robust than ALE400. If ALE400 is having retries, a vital setting in ALE400 was missed.

            Assuming MultiPSK is being used, click on Options in the ALE400 screen (1/3 the way from the top, in the middle almost). Inthe Options screen at the bottom, click on "Additional waiting delay of one second...."

            I have been successfully using ALE400 for almost 2 yrs every day to communicate with K1DOW in Florida on 20 and 30 mtrs and the 1 sec delay addition fixed our link issues and data flow...it is flawless.

            Yesterday AM we tested ALE400 running 1/2 watt and had perfect flow and connection on 14074 for almost 30 minutes.

            --
            Ted, WB2LOU

            You cannot change history, but you can make history !
            The legal cure for Ignorance is Education. The Stupidity of many is incurable.





            --
            Phil KA1GMN
            Experimental Station - WF9XJD
          • Glenn L. Roeser
            Hi Ted, Thanks for the info. I had used ALE400 in the past, but not for some time, so I must admitt I did nothing about adjusting the settings. We just
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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              Hi Ted,
              Thanks for the info. I had used ALE400 in the past, but not for some time, so I must admitt I did nothing about adjusting the settings. We just switched over to ALE400 ran it for awile then switched back to V4. While using the V4 we had better throughput with a lot less retries.
              Before I try such a test again I'll be sure to take your advice and set it for optimun performance.
              Very 73, Glenn WB2LMV

            • Ted Trostle
              And Phil the point of your statement is.... -- Ted, WB2LOU You cannot change history, but you can make history ! The legal cure for Ignorance is Education. The
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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                And Phil the point of your statement is....

                --
                Ted, WB2LOU

                You cannot change history, but you can make history !
                The legal cure for Ignorance is Education. The Stupidity of many is incurable.

              • Phil Williams
                Just what I said. That s is the point. ... -- Phil KA1GMN Experimental Station - WF9XJD
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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                  Just what I said.  That's is the point.

                  On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Ted Trostle <ttrostle35@...> wrote:
                   

                  And Phil the point of your statement is....


                  --
                  Ted, WB2LOU

                  You cannot change history, but you can make history !
                  The legal cure for Ignorance is Education. The Stupidity of many is incurable.




                  --
                  Phil KA1GMN
                  Experimental Station - WF9XJD
                • kt4wo67@gmail.com
                  What type of soundcard interface were you using for the test ?? ALE400 does not work as well as it can using VOX type interfaces,,(Signalink,etc) Thats why the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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                    What type of soundcard interface were you using for the test ??
                     
                    ALE400 does not work as well as it can using VOX type interfaces,,(Signalink,etc)
                     
                    Thats why the change in settings for the 1sec delay that the other poster said.
                     
                    Using hard PTT(serial port/USB serial port) -- It works great out of the box.
                     
                    I also have been using ALE400 for years, and find it hard to beat(for the cost..lol)
                     
                    Trip - KT4WO
                    kt4wo67@...
                     
                     
                  • Rick Muething
                    Glenn, Well there are always a tradeoffs of speed, bandwidth and robustness...goes back to Shannon’s theorm I think. (Part of what I sometimes refer to the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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                      Glenn,
                      Well there are always a tradeoffs of speed, bandwidth and robustness...goes back to Shannon’s theorm I think.  (Part of what I sometimes refer to the “no free lunch” theorem!). In general FSK is better for robustness than PSK especially in poor multipath channels.  The idea I have with CHIRP is it is like FSK but the tone continuously changes (chirps) throughout the symbol so it is more immune to selective fading which can wipe out a particular single frequency FSK carrier like is used in V4, Pactor 1, Olivia etc.  Chirp has been used extensively in some radars and Sonar but is generally wider bandwidth there of course.
                       
                      In properly written DSP code amplitudes (if used) are generally ratioed during demodulation so absolute levels are not that important provided they don’t saturate the sound card. We are generally working with fairly weak signals (often 20 db S/N or less ) so the full range of a 16 bit A-D (about 90 dB) is not usually used provided the radio has AGC.
                       
                      Still much too early to know how effective narrow band CHIRP will be for keyboard text (I’m targeting something > 40 words per minute in < 500 Hz) but at least I’ll probably learn something along the way!!!

                      Rick KN6KB
                       
                       
                      Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 11:27 AM
                      Subject: Re: [V4Protocol] V4 vs ALE400
                       
                       

                      Hello Rick,
                      It was during fading that the V4 program did better, and for some reason and I do not know why, the V4 program was running about 2 s units stronger on peaks. Maybe due to a more concentrated audio response from the soundcard?
                      It isn't often anymore where we all are experencing good band conditions, so any mode that can print at 100% and not crawl along is a plus. I always liked Olivia because it performed well, but it is very slow and if I used a different configuration to speed things up some, I would lose data. I enjoy the speed of V4 because I am not a fast typist and I don't feel as if I'm being chased by a wide boar trying to keep up with the buffer. Thanks for a great program.
                      Very 73, Glenn WB2LMV
                       

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                    • Glenn L. Roeser
                      Hi Trip, I am using the Rigblaster plus utilizing RTS. Very 73, Glenn WB2LMV
                      Message 10 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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                        Hi Trip,
                        I am using the Rigblaster plus utilizing RTS.
                        Very 73, Glenn WB2LMV
                      • Glenn L. Roeser
                        Rick, I know that most who have read your post about the Chirp mode will be anxiously awaiting it s release! Me too! I know that as a digital mode operator I
                        Message 11 of 12 , Aug 11, 2012
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                          Rick,
                          I know that most who have read your post about the Chirp mode will be anxiously awaiting it's release! Me too! I know that as a digital mode operator I am always looking for the mode that can print signals which are way below the noise level. JT65 and WSPR prove that it can be done, but those are not good for chats, so there is always that trade off. (-= I also like the modes that are not too wide, with all the different modes, and we each have a favorite, we really need to be able to share the little bandwidth that we have without interfering with one another. PSK10 is VERY narrow but the throughput is VERY slow. So I'm ready when you are to start using the new Chirp!
                          Very 73, Glenn

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