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Re: Hang out frequencies

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  • Jeff - WA4ZKO
    Unless someone wants to put together a website where WINMOR K2K ops can hook up, pick a time, pick a freq, etc etc....some general hangout spots on the dial
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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      Unless someone wants to put together a website where WINMOR K2K ops can hook up, pick a time, pick a freq, etc etc....some general hangout spots on the dial are a good idea.

      I suggest staying fairly close to the usual 80m/40m WINMOR hotspots of 3.573/7.077 USB (dial). Whether or not those choices were the best could be debated till the cows go home, but momentum is what it is.

      Doubt there is a perfect solution, especially on our very crowded (at best) lower bands. Bottom line is we have lots of digital modes trying to share some small chunks of HF spectrum.

      Also consider a 30m hangout spot. Nice thing about 30 is it doesn't turn into a total QRM zoo during digital/cw contests.


      73
      Jeff
      WA4ZKO
      "Packet Radio never died, it just evolved."
      Packet: WA4ZKO@WA4ZKO.#NKY.KY.USA.NOAM
      http://twitter.com/wa4zko
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BBS_Users/ BBS Users Group.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BBS_Sysop/ BBS Sysops Group.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hspacket/ High Speed Packet Group.

      --- In V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com, "David Bastress" <bastress@...> wrote:
      >
      > GM All,
      >
      > I like John's suggestion. The 'north' ends (high frequency side) of the keyboard to keyboard areas of the bands sounds like a plan to me. The only question may be on 40 meters where there seems to be two KB to KB areas, one from 7035 and up and the other 7070 and up.
      >
      > Dave K3GAU
      >
    • marc_pd4u
      ... I fully agree if V4 is merely intended for K2K (keyboard to keyboard) use. Then a center of activity and eventual skeds via http://www.obriensweb.com/sked/
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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        --- In V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com, "va3lki" <va3lki@...> wrote:
        ><..> but sticking in the same area as the other keyboard operations are, does make some sense. I suspect there may be a comfortable niche there, and the 'battles for spectrum' already fought, won, or lost.
        >
        > If V4 is really just another keyboard method of doing the same thing in a little different way, then should it not still play in the keyboard sandbox? A bit like faster modes of PSK staying within the PSK area, or CW at 25, 35 and 50 wpm all playing nice together.
        >

        I fully agree if V4 is merely intended for K2K (keyboard to keyboard) use. Then a center of activity and eventual skeds via http://www.obriensweb.com/sked/ or any other suggested sked page is sufficient it seems to me.

        But it begs the question is V4 merely intended for K2K use, since it originates from the WL2K team? Or is it (also) going to fit in the Wl2K set of programs in the future (that is my primary focus of interest)? In other words: Is the K2K alpha test a preliminary for the ARQ V4 Mode?

        Marc, PD4U
      • Rick Muething
        Marc, There is no point speculating on these things....It should be fairly obvious from the performance figures and the V4 and V4Chat paper that V4 is intended
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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          Marc,
           
          There is no point speculating on these things....It should be fairly obvious from the performance figures and the V4 and V4Chat paper that V4 is intended strictly as a keyboard mode. It is limited to text, doesn’t use compression and is slower and less adaptive (but more robust and narrower) than WINMOR ....all by design.  It is designed to do keyboard to keyboard at normal typing speeds with fairly good “slickness” (RX to TX  turn over) and be more robust than modes like PSK (especially in poor multipath).  It is the result of many requests and several vain attempts to use WINMOR for keyboarding. 
           
          There are good reasons why modes are (or should be) designed for specific purposes.   With DSP it is much easier to design and optimize a mode that does a specific function well. When you try and make one thing fit all applications (Keyboard, files, messages, HF, VHF, wideband, narrow band, etc) you end up with a Camel (aka the Horse designed by committee!)
           
          There is absolutely no logic that would suggest that V4 compete with WINMOR or be morphed to have WINMOR capability.  They do 2 different things just like CW and SSB voice.
           
          The theory and early testing on the simulator suggests that V4 should fit the keyboarder’s requirements well though of course it will take time and work to optimize this.
           
          Rick KN6KB
           
          From: marc_pd4u
          Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:40 PM
          Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: Hang out frequencies - 4 what?
           
           



          --- In mailto:V4Protocol%40yahoogroups.com, "va3lki" <va3lki@...> wrote:

          ><..> but sticking in the same
          area as the other keyboard operations are, does make some sense. I suspect there may be a comfortable niche there, and the 'battles for spectrum' already fought, won, or lost.
          >
          > If V4 is really just another keyboard method of
          doing the same thing in a little different way, then should it not still play in the keyboard sandbox? A bit like faster modes of PSK staying within the PSK area, or CW at 25, 35 and 50 wpm all playing nice together.
          >

          I fully agree if V4 is merely intended for K2K (keyboard to keyboard) use. Then a center of activity and eventual skeds via http://www.obriensweb.com/sked/ or any other suggested sked page is sufficient it seems to me.

          But it begs the question is V4 merely intended for K2K use, since it originates from the WL2K team? Or is it (also) going to fit in the Wl2K set of programs in the future (that is my primary focus of interest)? In other words: Is the K2K alpha test a preliminary for the ARQ V4 Mode?

          Marc, PD4U

        • Andy obrien
          Interesting, it sounds a bit like ALE 400 to me, I look forward to seeing if it is anything close to what I imagine. Andy K3UK ... Interesting, it sounds a bit
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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            Interesting, it sounds a bit like ALE 400 to me, I look forward to seeing if it is anything close to what I imagine.


            Andy K3UK

            On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Rick Muething <rmuething@...> wrote:
             

            It is designed to do keyboard to keyboard at normal typing speeds with fairly good “slickness” (RX to TX  turn over) and be more robust than modes like PSK (especially in poor multipath).  It is the result of many requests and several vain attempts to use WINMOR for keyboarding. 
             
            There are good reasons why modes are (or should be) designed for specific purposes.   With DSP it is much easier to design and optimize a mode that does a specific function well. When you try and make one thing fit all applications (Keyboard, files, messages, HF, VHF, wideband, narrow band, etc) you end up with a Camel (aka the Horse designed by c


          • W6IDS
            This isn t operable with WL2K. It s an ARQ keyboard comms application per se. How much spectrum does this take up compared to RTTY, PSK, etc? RTTY and PSK
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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              This isn't operable with WL2K.  It's an ARQ keyboard comms application per se.
              How much spectrum does this take up compared to RTTY, PSK, etc?
               
              RTTY and PSK aren't compatible simply for the fact that RTTY clobbers PSK.
              How well will WINMOR play with RTTY?  PSK?  If it's no winder than PSK, I
              don't see why it can't go anywhere it will fit on a not-to-interfere basis.  NO
              difference than we do now just out of courtesy for our other modes.
               
              I guess I'm a bit reluctant to entertain a discussion about having to find a
              separate home for the operations when we don't have to, IMHO.  There's no
              channel list to reference
               
              Why can't we just pick a quiet frequency (ies) and test (call CQ WINMOR, set up
              a sked referencing CF, etc)?  We're not testing for WL2K application are we? 
              I thought this was totally applicable to normal QSO comms but with the advantage
              of error-free copy by virtue of ARQ.
               
              Seems to me it's no different than RTTY or my PacTOR I ops on 14111 CF.
              Let's just test the capability to the max, have fun with it, and try not to bust anyone's
              chops 'cause we weren't checking the freqs like we should.
               
              Howard W6IDS
              Richmond, IN EM79NV
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 9:24 AM
              Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: Hang out frequencies

              GM All,
               
              I like John's suggestion.  The 'north' ends (high frequency side) of the keyboard to keyboard areas of the bands sounds like a plan to me.  The only question may be on 40 meters where there seems to be two KB to KB areas, one from 7035 and up and the other 7070 and up. 
               
              Dave K3GAU

               
            • marc_pd4u
              Hi Rick, TNX 4 ur reply. And I already guessed that since it was asked several times to include a K2K facility for winmor. So now there is V4 for those. But I
              Message 6 of 13 , Dec 3, 2010
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                Hi Rick,

                TNX 4 ur reply. And I already guessed that since it was asked several times to include a K2K facility for winmor. So now there is V4 for those.

                But I sure hope that V4 is not going to take too much development time for winmor, since winmor still has some hick-ups every now and then. But you also said you were going to focus again on winmor in the coming time. So PSE have a look at the "memory issue" (i.e. memory not released/variables not reset after a connect)

                GD LK

                Marc, PD4U

                --- In V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Muething" <rmuething@...> wrote:
                >
                > Marc,
                >
                > There is no point speculating on these things....It should be fairly obvious from the performance figures and the V4 and V4Chat paper that V4 is intended strictly as a keyboard mode. It is limited to text, doesn’t use compression and is slower and less adaptive (but more robust and narrower) than WINMOR ....all by design. It is designed to do keyboard to keyboard at normal typing speeds with fairly good “slickness” (RX to TX turn over) and be more robust than modes like PSK (especially in poor multipath). It is the result of many requests and several vain attempts to use WINMOR for keyboarding.
                >
                > There are good reasons why modes are (or should be) designed for specific purposes. With DSP it is much easier to design and optimize a mode that does a specific function well. When you try and make one thing fit all applications (Keyboard, files, messages, HF, VHF, wideband, narrow band, etc) you end up with a Camel (aka the Horse designed by committee!)
                >
                > There is absolutely no logic that would suggest that V4 compete with WINMOR or be morphed to have WINMOR capability. They do 2 different things just like CW and SSB voice.
                >
                > The theory and early testing on the simulator suggests that V4 should fit the keyboarder’s requirements well though of course it will take time and work to optimize this.
                >
                > Rick KN6KB
                >
                > From: marc_pd4u
                > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 12:40 PM
                > To: V4Protocol@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [V4Protocol] Re: Hang out frequencies - 4 what?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In mailto:V4Protocol%40yahoogroups.com, "va3lki" <va3lki@> wrote:
                > ><..> but sticking in the same area as the other keyboard operations are, does make some sense. I suspect there may be a comfortable niche there, and the 'battles for spectrum' already fought, won, or lost.
                > >
                > > If V4 is really just another keyboard method of doing the same thing in a little different way, then should it not still play in the keyboard sandbox? A bit like faster modes of PSK staying within the PSK area, or CW at 25, 35 and 50 wpm all playing nice together.
                > >
                >
                > I fully agree if V4 is merely intended for K2K (keyboard to keyboard) use. Then a center of activity and eventual skeds via http://www.obriensweb.com/sked/ or any other suggested sked page is sufficient it seems to me.
                >
                > But it begs the question is V4 merely intended for K2K use, since it originates from the WL2K team? Or is it (also) going to fit in the Wl2K set of programs in the future (that is my primary focus of interest)? In other words: Is the K2K alpha test a preliminary for the ARQ V4 Mode?
                >
                > Marc, PD4U
                >
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