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Re: [Unity_Games] Fifth Avenue Freeze Out

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  • J C Lawrence
    On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:18:03 -0800 (PST) ... Does this mean that players need to aggressively zero-sum optimise their moves for the game to come to life in this
    Message 1 of 10 , Jan 4, 2005
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      On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:18:03 -0800 (PST)
      Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt@...> wrote:

      > - Placing businesses beside your buildings increases your buildings'
      > value. Thus, in a game of hard choices, this action is often the
      > easiest to make. But if everyone makes it, the game ends way before
      > its supposed to.

      Does this mean that players need to aggressively zero-sum optimise their
      moves for the game to come to life in this regard? ie If the players
      don't fight for relative point maximisation rather than simple personal
      point maximisation, the game falters, badly.

      > - If the Commissioner is on your block, you can score all the points
      > you've been working so hard to set up. But you can't move the
      > Commissioner and score the block, so you have to move the Commissioner
      > to your block and hope that the next player scores it, which, of
      > course, often requires that the next player to have an equal or
      > greater point potential than you do in that block.

      > The lessons of the game are, 1) Don't increase the value of your
      > buildings because that will end the game too early, and 2) Don't
      > bother setting yourself up to score unless your neighbor will score
      > more points than you will.

      This sounds like the necessary approach to succeed by a) collecting a
      host of second-place scores rather than heading for the big payouts for
      yourself, and b) build areas that other players want you to score
      despite the fact that it gives you a tonne of points. Which, if right,
      is rather clever and really enforces some of the nastier aspects of
      differential value calculation.

      --
      J C Lawrence
      ---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
      claw@... He lived as a devil, eh?
      http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.
    • W. Eric Martin
      ... Zzzzzzz-- huh, wha, oh, sorry. With this kind of talk about the game, no wonder Fifth Avenue has never come to life on a big scale. Eric -- W. Eric
      Message 2 of 10 , Jan 4, 2005
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        J C Lawrence wrote:
        > Does this mean that players need to aggressively zero-sum optimise their
        > moves for the game to come to life in this regard? ie If the players
        > don't fight for relative point maximisation rather than simple personal
        > point maximisation, the game falters, badly.

        Zzzzzzz-- huh, wha, oh, sorry. With this kind of talk about the game, no
        wonder Fifth Avenue has never "come to life" on a big scale.

        Eric

        --
        W. Eric Martin - TwoWriters.net
      • Josh Bluestein
        ... Either that or it s a clarion call to not let JC write promotional marketing literature for anything you want people to actually, um, buy. Not that s he
        Message 3 of 10 , Jan 4, 2005
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          > From: "W. Eric Martin" <eric@...>
          > J C Lawrence wrote:
          > > Does this mean that players need to aggressively zero-sum optimise their
          > > moves for the game to come to life in this regard? ie If the players
          > > don't fight for relative point maximisation rather than simple personal
          > > point maximisation, the game falters, badly.
          >
          > Zzzzzzz-- huh, wha, oh, sorry. With this kind of talk about the game, no
          > wonder Fifth Avenue has never "come to life" on a big scale.

          Either that or it's a clarion call to not let JC write promotional
          marketing literature for anything you want people to actually, um,
          buy.

          Not that's he necessarily wrong in what he's saying...

          Josh
        • Josh Bluestein
          ... Well, it means that if all you take is a very short-term view of the play of the game, all you get is a very short term. Interestingly, I don t think the
          Message 4 of 10 , Jan 4, 2005
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            > From: "J C Lawrence" <claw@...>
            > On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 11:18:03 -0800 (PST)
            > Christopher Lockheardt <clockheardt@...> wrote:
            >
            > > - Placing businesses beside your buildings increases your buildings'
            > > value. Thus, in a game of hard choices, this action is often the
            > > easiest to make. But if everyone makes it, the game ends way before
            > > its supposed to.
            >
            > Does this mean that players need to aggressively zero-sum optimise their
            > moves for the game to come to life in this regard? ie If the players
            > don't fight for relative point maximisation rather than simple personal
            > point maximisation, the game falters, badly.

            Well, it means that if all you take is a very short-term view of the
            play of the game, all you get is a very short term. Interestingly, I
            don't think the game actually favors the strategy of putting out lots
            of businesses. In a situation like this I believe that the advantage
            will go to the person who gets in a few good points elsewhere by
            dropping some new buildings or meeting the intermediate scoring
            requirements. Placing lots of businesses quickly does end the game
            fast, but it doesn't *win* the game.

            > > - If the Commissioner is on your block, you can score all the points
            > > you've been working so hard to set up. But you can't move the
            > > Commissioner and score the block, so you have to move the Commissioner
            > > to your block and hope that the next player scores it, which, of
            > > course, often requires that the next player to have an equal or
            > > greater point potential than you do in that block.
            >
            > > The lessons of the game are, 1) Don't increase the value of your
            > > buildings because that will end the game too early, and 2) Don't
            > > bother setting yourself up to score unless your neighbor will score
            > > more points than you will.

            > This sounds like the necessary approach to succeed by a) collecting
            > a host of second-place scores rather than heading for the big
            > payouts for yourself, and b) build areas that other players want you
            > to score despite the fact that it gives you a tonne of points.
            > Which, if right, is rather clever and really enforces some of the
            > nastier aspects of differential value calculation.

            The above paragraph has been officially sanitized. The new version
            follows below:

            "So, dude, the idea is to get other people to make moves that benefit
            you more than your moves benefit them? That's totally AWESOME!!!"

            Your cooperation in this matter is appreciated, citizen.

            Please move along now.
          • Walter Hunt
            ... Sounds like choice two. Of course, that would probably qualify him as a marketing-communications guy, based on what I ve seen. Of course I ve played Fifth
            Message 5 of 10 , Jan 4, 2005
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              On Jan 4, 2005, at 3:03 PM, Josh Bluestein wrote:

              > Either that or it's a clarion call to not let JC write promotional
              > marketing literature for anything you want people to actually, um,
              > buy.
              >
              > Not that's he necessarily wrong in what he's saying...

              Sounds like choice two. Of course, that would probably qualify him as a
              marketing-communications guy, based
              on what I've seen.

              Of course I've played Fifth Avenue too, and thought it sucked. Just
              like the original post - it sucks the life out of you.

              Walter H. Hunt
              hotc@...
              http://www.walterhunt.com/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Craig Massey
              ... I had a very similar experience after my first playing of Fifth Avenue. No shortage of groupthink in this game. If you have only played the game once,
              Message 6 of 10 , Jan 4, 2005
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                --- Walter Hunt <hotc@...> wrote:

                >
                > On Jan 4, 2005, at 3:03 PM, Josh Bluestein wrote:
                >
                > > Either that or it's a clarion call to not let JC
                > write promotional
                > > marketing literature for anything you want people
                > to actually, um,
                > > buy.
                > >
                > > Not that's he necessarily wrong in what he's
                > saying...
                >
                > Sounds like choice two. Of course, that would
                > probably qualify him as a
                > marketing-communications guy, based
                > on what I've seen.
                >
                > Of course I've played Fifth Avenue too, and thought
                > it sucked. Just
                > like the original post - it sucks the life out of
                > you.

                I had a very similar experience after my first playing
                of Fifth Avenue. No shortage of groupthink in this
                game. If you have only played the game once, give it
                a second try. Its not going to set the world aflame,
                but it is not nearly as bad as so many seem to say.

                Save life sucking hyperbole for things like Tongiaki,
                JC's post, etc.

                Craig

                =====
                Craig W. Massey
                cwmassey@...




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              • tool@panix.com
                ... I agree the game s not terrible. It s got interlocking systems, there are lots of decisions to be made, and there are subtleties to the gameplay.
                Message 7 of 10 , Jan 4, 2005
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                  > I had a very similar experience after my first playing
                  > of Fifth Avenue. No shortage of groupthink in this
                  > game. If you have only played the game once, give it
                  > a second try. Its not going to set the world aflame,
                  > but it is not nearly as bad as so many seem to say.
                  >
                  > Save life sucking hyperbole for things like Tongiaki,
                  > JC's post, etc.
                  >

                  I agree the game's not terrible. It's got interlocking systems,
                  there are lots of decisions to be made, and there are subtleties
                  to the gameplay. However, for me it just wasn't much fun - why,
                  I can't say, but it wasn't, despite everything. Other people I
                  have played with have had a similar reaction.

                  --
                  _______________________________________________________________________
                  Dan Blum tool@...
                  "I wouldn't have believed it myself if I hadn't just made it up."
                • Craig B
                  ... Fifth Avenue is admittedly very very dry as a game. I mostly felt clueless during it. Not my favorite, but far from the worst I ve played. However,
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jan 4, 2005
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                    Craig Massey <cwmassey@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I had a very similar experience after my first playing
                    > of Fifth Avenue. No shortage of groupthink in this
                    > game. If you have only played the game once, give it
                    > a second try. Its not going to set the world aflame,
                    > but it is not nearly as bad as so many seem to say.
                    >
                    > Save life sucking hyperbole for things like Tongiaki,
                    > JC's post, etc.

                    Fifth Avenue is admittedly very very dry as a game. I mostly felt
                    clueless during it. Not my favorite, but far from the worst I've
                    played.

                    However, Tongiaki was quite good, I think (It's the Tiki island boats
                    game?). If so, I played twice at UG8 and had a great time.



                    =====
                    Craig Brooks
                    Cheapass Demo Monkey / MIB #0411 email: gilby123@...
                    http://www.angelfire.com/ma/gilby123/index.html

                    "Where would we be without the agitators of the
                    world attaching the electrodes of knowledge to the nipples
                    of ignorance?" - John Lithgow, 3rd Rock from the Sun




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