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Re: Another Betta Loss :-(

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  • ardoucette
    Jan, In my opinion 40% water changes are extreme at any time and 40% weekly is really extreme for one fish in a 5.5 gal tank. The problem is your water supply
    Message 1 of 16 , May 2, 2002
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      Jan,
      In my opinion 40% water changes are extreme at any time and 40%
      weekly is really extreme for one fish in a 5.5 gal tank.
      The problem is your water supply will typically not be that constant.
      I know mine is different each time I measure it with its hardness
      varying quite a bit. Also the amount of chlorine and chloramine can
      vary quite a bit, sometimes enough so that the normal dose of declor
      is insufficient to remove all. If you are changing 10% of the water
      this would not likely be enough to cause a problem but at 40% it
      could. Over the years I learned the hardway that water changes, while
      done to improve conditions in the tank, could also cause damage and
      have since learned to keep changes to moderate levels and frequency.
      If I felt I needed to make larger changes they would be done by
      increasing the frequency not the percentage.
      In certain situations one may have to do more but if so then
      diligence to the new water quality is a must.
      Arthur



      --- In UniQuaria@y..., Jan <jango@c...> wrote:
      > Thanks Kristy and Gail.
      >
      > My pH does tend to run a bit high. At last check (last week) it
      was 7.8, which is normal for me. He had been in the tank for almost
      a month - would it have taken that long to have that effect? The
      tank is filtered ( a box filter), and the last water change around
      40%) was 4 days before he died. I was changing water once a week. If
      I get another Betta, I'll try every 5 days. I haven't tested the
      water for anything else in the past couple weeks. I'll do it again
      this weekend to see if anything shows up. I'll also check the tank
      for "foreign objects." I can't think of anything off hand, but I'll
      sure check. Thanks again.
      >
      > - Jan
    • Jan
      Hi, Kristy! Yes, the tank was cycled and was fishless (with plants/snails only) for quite awhile. It had been used as a temporary apartment for my friend s
      Message 2 of 16 , May 2, 2002
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        Hi, Kristy!
         
        Yes, the tank was cycled and was fishless (with plants/snails only) for quite awhile.  It had been used as a temporary apartment for my friend's fish.  I think Arthur may have hit on something here regarding the water changes...    (See my next post.)
         
        Thanks again for your help.
         
        - Jan
        Was the tank cycled? If it wasn't, then you should be changing the water every 3 days or so until it is... and definately go with the sit-over-night method of water changes - I keep water in a 1g jug with the lid off, and shake it once in a while, PLUS add sticky dechlor (like stress coat)... it's working now, and the fish are doing OK

      • Jan
        Okay, Arthur, I ve *always* wondered about the water coming from my upstairs sink. It is very bubbly, and I had a feeling that maybe that wasn t so good for
        Message 3 of 16 , May 2, 2002
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          Okay, Arthur, I've *always* wondered about the water coming from my upstairs sink.  It is very "bubbly," and I had a feeling that maybe that wasn't so good for the fish. Now I know!  None of my other upstairs fish have suffered (guppies, danios, tiger barbs, and cories), but this is the 2nd betta that died rather suddenly.  I use a dechlorinator, but I haven't let water sit for very long at all.  My downstairs tap doesn't porduce the same amount of bubbles, and I've had no problems there.
           
          The only reason I tend to change that much water at a time is simply because I get involved in cleaning the gravel, and the water gets sucked up so very fast!  (No good reason at all, in other words!)   I will definitely lessen the amount changed.   (BTW, I do match pH and temperature, but not hardness.) 
           
          Thanks very much for this insight.   I learn something new everyday!
           
          - Jan
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:44 PM
          Subject: [UniQuaria] Re: Another Betta Loss :-(

          Hi Jan,
          Sorry about Frosty.
          Hate to say it but in the absence of finding some other obvious cause
          a suspect could be the water change.
          How do you do them? Is the water allowed to stand overnight? This is
          an area that I think people tend to forget, tap water is under
          pressure and as such gasses dissolve into it, which then come out
          slowly when the water is at standard pressure. Different water
          systems have this to varying degrees. Try this, run the cold water
          tap for a few seconds then fill a glass with the water and let it sit.
          Do a lot of bubbles eventually form on the sides of the glass? If so
          this is what I'm talking about. If one takes tap water and adds a
          declorinater to it and then adds it to the tank, the fish will be
          absorbing a lot of dissolved gasses. I've read where these can then
          theoretically come out in the fishes bloodstream, basically a case of
          the bends. (I'm not a biologist so if this is a "fish tale", someone
          please correct this)
          In any case, my own practice is to always let the change water sit
          overnight with a heater and a circulating pump or airstone in it
          before using it in the tank. Then prior to using it I adjust hardness
          and pH to match.
          When you do a water change do you match pH, temp & hardness? Do you
          change more then 25% of the water at one time?

          IMO a single betta in a 5.5 gal planted and filtered tank should
          require almost no water changes, maybe 10 - 15% bi-weekly.
          Then again, the fish may have died for causes totally unrelated to
          your care. Sometimes one will just never know.

          In my heavily planted, lightly fed 2 gal tetra/rasbora tank (13
          fish), I only change about 20% of the water every two weeks.
          All top off water for all tanks is R/O water.
          Arthur

        • ardoucette
          Hi Jan, I ve never owned a gravel vac. I don t generally believe in them. With a planted tank and low fish load there is hardly a reason for them. If you still
          Message 4 of 16 , May 2, 2002
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            Hi Jan,
            I've never owned a gravel vac.
            I don't generally believe in them.
            With a planted tank and low fish load there is hardly a reason for
            them.
            If you still insist on using one, can not the water that is siphoned
            off be returned back to the tank (once its settled?)
            I've never trusted water right out of the tap. Even if it is an
            emergency I'd let it sit for an hour with an airpump running and then
            use double the dose of dechlor.
            By the way, you always use only water from the cold water tap and
            then only after letting it run long enough to flush the pipes
            (typically 20 seconds or so) right???

            Arthur

            --- In UniQuaria@y..., Jan <jango@c...> wrote:
            > Okay, Arthur, I've *always* wondered about the water coming from my
            upstairs sink. It is very "bubbly," and I had a feeling that maybe
            that wasn't so good for the fish. Now I know! None of my other
            upstairs fish have suffered (guppies, danios, tiger barbs, and
            cories), but this is the 2nd betta that died rather suddenly. I use
            a dechlorinator, but I haven't let water sit for very long at all.
            My downstairs tap doesn't porduce the same amount of bubbles, and
            I've had no problems there.
            >
            > The only reason I tend to change that much water at a time is
            simply because I get involved in cleaning the gravel, and the water
            gets sucked up so very fast! (No good reason at all, in other
            words!) I will definitely lessen the amount changed. (BTW, I do
            match pH and temperature, but not hardness.)
            >
            > Thanks very much for this insight. I learn something new everyday!
            >
            > - Jan
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: ardoucette
            > To: UniQuaria@y...
            > Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 3:44 PM
            > Subject: [UniQuaria] Re: Another Betta Loss :-(
            >
            >
            > Hi Jan,
            > Sorry about Frosty.
            > Hate to say it but in the absence of finding some other obvious
            cause
            > a suspect could be the water change.
            > How do you do them? Is the water allowed to stand overnight? This
            is
            > an area that I think people tend to forget, tap water is under
            > pressure and as such gasses dissolve into it, which then come out
            > slowly when the water is at standard pressure. Different water
            > systems have this to varying degrees. Try this, run the cold
            water
            > tap for a few seconds then fill a glass with the water and let it
            sit.
            > Do a lot of bubbles eventually form on the sides of the glass? If
            so
            > this is what I'm talking about. If one takes tap water and adds a
            > declorinater to it and then adds it to the tank, the fish will be
            > absorbing a lot of dissolved gasses. I've read where these can
            then
            > theoretically come out in the fishes bloodstream, basically a
            case of
            > the bends. (I'm not a biologist so if this is a "fish tale",
            someone
            > please correct this)
            > In any case, my own practice is to always let the change water
            sit
            > overnight with a heater and a circulating pump or airstone in it
            > before using it in the tank. Then prior to using it I adjust
            hardness
            > and pH to match.
            > When you do a water change do you match pH, temp & hardness? Do
            you
            > change more then 25% of the water at one time?
            >
            > IMO a single betta in a 5.5 gal planted and filtered tank should
            > require almost no water changes, maybe 10 - 15% bi-weekly.
            > Then again, the fish may have died for causes totally unrelated
            to
            > your care. Sometimes one will just never know.
            >
            > In my heavily planted, lightly fed 2 gal tetra/rasbora tank (13
            > fish), I only change about 20% of the water every two weeks.
            > All top off water for all tanks is R/O water.
            > Arthur
          • cantbackup@aol.com
            i have a 20 long tank it is full of fish including 2 male bettas i have a 30 gal green trash can full of driftwood, water, and 3 or 4 comets (i dont like to
            Message 5 of 16 , May 2, 2002
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              i have a 20 long tank
              it is full of fish including 2 male bettas
              i have a 30 gal green trash can full of driftwood, water, and 3 or 4 comets
              (i dont like to use the f word (Feeders))
              i use a gravel siphon on my tank and use that dirty water on all of my
              houseplants and outside plants.
              i refill the tank with water from the green rubber trash can
              i then refill from the tap the trash can , it then sits there with an
              airstone only for a week if the goldfish are still happy i either top off my
              tank from evaporation or do a partial water change
              this way the water sits long enough so i know there are no problems with its
              chemical makeup
              my water always looks yellow but this is because of the driftwood
              turtle
            • tishykb
              ... siphoned ... If you mean *all* the water that is syphoned off, no, it shouldn t be returned to the tank. You re just putting back the nitrate you just
              Message 6 of 16 , May 3, 2002
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                > If you still insist on using one, can not the water that is
                siphoned
                > off be returned back to the tank (once its settled?)

                If you mean *all* the water that is syphoned off, no, it shouldn't be
                returned to the tank. You're just putting back the nitrate you just
                syphoned off! But if you're doing 40% water changes just to get all
                the debris out, i supposed you could put 20 % of the water back in,
                as long as you're careful not to put the dirt back in too...

                But may i inquire as to what all debris you are trying to get out
                that you are syphoning out 40% each week? A betta doesn't produce a
                whole lot of waste in a week...
              • ardoucette
                That s what I ment, if one uses a siphon and because of the time it takes to clean the gravel one siphons a lot more water then one needs, then by letting the
                Message 7 of 16 , May 3, 2002
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                  That's what I ment, if one uses a siphon and because of the time it
                  takes to clean the gravel one siphons a lot more water then one
                  needs, then by letting the siphoned water settle for a few minutes
                  one could replace the excess water without the dirt.
                  Arthur

                  --- In UniQuaria@y..., "tishykb" <tishykb@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > If you still insist on using one, can not the water that is
                  > siphoned
                  > > off be returned back to the tank (once its settled?)
                  >
                  > If you mean *all* the water that is syphoned off, no, it shouldn't
                  be
                  > returned to the tank. You're just putting back the nitrate you just
                  > syphoned off! But if you're doing 40% water changes just to get all
                  > the debris out, i supposed you could put 20 % of the water back in,
                  > as long as you're careful not to put the dirt back in too...
                  >
                  > But may i inquire as to what all debris you are trying to get out
                  > that you are syphoning out 40% each week? A betta doesn't produce a
                  > whole lot of waste in a week...
                • Tony'
                  Having water sit will only rid it of Chlorine added to it by your water facility for sanitary purposes. It won t do a thing to the rest of your chemistry,
                  Message 8 of 16 , May 5, 2002
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                    Having water sit will only rid it of Chlorine added to it by your water
                    facility for sanitary purposes. It won't do a thing to the rest of your
                    chemistry, except that your pH might change by a couple of points.

                    Tony.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <cantbackup@...>
                    To: <UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 4:05 AM
                    Subject: Re: [UniQuaria] Another Betta Loss :-(


                    > this way the water sits long enough so i know there are no problems with
                    its
                    > chemical makeup
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