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Re: [Uncleanedcoins] Re: Is this coin a barbariate

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  • Jan de Veen
    Yes, you re right. Now I see too that it is helmeted and not laureate. But Licinius II (the Caesar) appears helmeted on coins as well. I know this because I
    Message 1 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
      Yes, you're right. Now I see too that it is helmeted and not laureate. But Licinius II
      (the Caesar) appears helmeted on coins as well. I know this because I have one in my
      collection: http://www.chijanofuji.com/Licinius2a.html :-)

      I'm just not sure if the VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP also exists in a helmeted variety for
      LII. But I'll wade through RIC in a moment and will definitly find this out! :-)

      Kind regards,

      Jan de Veen

      http://www.chijanofuji.com/Roman_Coins.html

      Browning wrote:
      > That's not a laureate head on his coin though. It is helmeted right.
      > Indicating one of the Augusti.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Ken Browning
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Jan de Veen <mailto:chijanofuji@...>
      > To: Tom Ross <mailto:jawboney@...> ; Uncleaned
      > <mailto:Uncleanedcoins@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 7:31 PM
      > Subject: Re: [Uncleanedcoins] Re: Is this coin a barbariate
      >
      >
      > Tom,
      >
      > I surprised myself too, but I'm pretty sure I have positively
      > identified your coin (using
      > Van Meter and Failmezger):
      >
      > It is an AE3 from Licinius II:
      >
      > Obverse:
      > DN VAL LICIN LICINIVS NOB C
      > Licinius II, his laureate head right
      >
      > Reverse:
      > VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP
      > Two victories placing shield inscribed VOT PR on an altar
      >
      > Reference:
      > Van Meter, "Handbook of Roman Imperial Coins", p286, nr. 10, var.
      > with obverse legend ol/1
      > Failmezger, "Roman Bronze Coins From Paganism To Christianity
      > 294-364 A.D.", nr 316LII
      >
      > Sorry I can't give you the absolute ID nr in RIC as well, but for
      > that we would need to
      > identify the mint marks in the exergue first and I don't think we're
      > ever going to get
      > that far with this one unless you can somehow make them out with the
      > coin in hand! ;-)
      >
      > Kind regards,
      >
      > Jan de Veen
      >
      > http://www.chijanofuji.com/Roman_Coins.html
      >
      > Tom Ross wrote:
      > > Hannes,
      > >
      > > Thank you for your response. I just can't seem to put the legend
      > > together on this coin, the only thing that makes sence is the VOT
      > PR on
      > > the shield. I must have tunnel vision on this coin, do you have any
      > > idea what the legend says. I know the coin is rough.
      > > What I see as the legend must reside souly in my imagination.
      > > Obverse IJNLITT???JINO thats crazy.
      > >
      > > thanks
      > >
      > > Tom
      > >
      > > "Hannes Mayer www.ancientcoins.biz" <office@...> wrote:
      > > Tom Ross wrote:
      > >
      > > > Hi List,
      > > >
      > > > The legend on this coin does not make any sense to me, does it
      > make
      > > sence to any of you or could it be a barbariate coin.
      > > >
      > > > http://tomross.ancients.info/images/Other%20Images/barbarious.jpg
      > > >
      > >
      > > Tom,
      > >
      > > well, the coin is rather rough, but since the lettering
      > > seems not to be that odd and the proportion of the
      > > figures are OK too, I would say it is a official issue.
      > > Just my opinion of course.
      > >
      > > Greetings,
      > > Hannes.
      >
      >
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      --

      Greetings from a Sumo fan from the Netherlands,

      Jan "Chijanofuji" de Veen

      http://www.chijanofuji.com
    • Browning
      To find a helmeted AND laureate bust with this reverse, look to Constantine the great. Here is a link to my page with some examples.
      Message 2 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
        To find a helmeted AND laureate bust with this reverse, look to Constantine the great. Here is a link to my page with some examples.

        http://home.mchsi.com/~kayaker34/page70c.html CR-161, CR-162
        http://home.mchsi.com/~kayaker34/page70d.html CR-178
        http://home.mchsi.com/~kayaker34/page70e.html CR-193
        http://home.mchsi.com/~kayaker34/page70f.html CR-230


        You'll find several examples of inscription breaks as well on these examples.

        Regards,
        Ken Browning
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Howard Cole
        To: jawboney@... ; Uncleaned Coins
        Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 8:20 PM
        Subject: Re: [Uncleanedcoins] Re: Is this coin a barbariate


        Hi Tom and all,

        The obverse was what is putting me off of this coin. It looked like
        a helmeted bust. I could find nothing with a helmeted bust that had
        the reverse of this coin. So my question is, Is it a helmeted or
        laureate bust?

        Sincerely,
        Howard Cole

        >Tom,
        >
        >I surprised myself too, but I'm pretty sure I have positively
        >identified your coin (using
        >Van Meter and Failmezger):
        >
        >It is an AE3 from Licinius II:
        >
        >Obverse:
        >DN VAL LICIN LICINIVS NOB C
        >Licinius II, his laureate head right
        >
        >Reverse:
        >VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP
        >Two victories placing shield inscribed VOT PR on an altar
        >
        >Reference:
        >Van Meter, "Handbook of Roman Imperial Coins", p286, nr. 10, var.
        >with obverse legend ol/1
        >Failmezger, "Roman Bronze Coins From Paganism To Christianity
        >294-364 A.D.", nr 316LII
        >
        >Sorry I can't give you the absolute ID nr in RIC as well, but for
        >that we would need to
        >identify the mint marks in the exergue first and I don't think we're
        >ever going to get
        >that far with this one unless you can somehow make them out with the
        >coin in hand! ;-)
        >
        >Kind regards,
        >
        >Jan de Veen
        >
        ><http://www.chijanofuji.com/Roman_Coins.html>http://www.chijanofuji.com/Roman_Coins.html
        >
        >Tom Ross wrote:
        >> Hannes,
        >>
        >> Thank you for your response. I just can't seem to put the legend
        >> together on this coin, the only thing that makes sence is the VOT PR on
        >> the shield. I must have tunnel vision on this coin, do you have any
        >> idea what the legend says. I know the coin is rough.
        >> What I see as the legend must reside souly in my imagination.
        >> Obverse IJNLITT???JINO thats crazy.
        >>
        >> thanks
        >>
        >> Tom
        >>
        >> "Hannes Mayer www.ancientcoins.biz" <office@...> wrote:
        >> Tom Ross wrote:
        >>
        >> > Hi List,
        >> >
        >> > The legend on this coin does not make any sense to me, does it make
        >> sence to any of you or could it be a barbariate coin.
        >> >
        >> >
        >><http://tomross.ancients.info/images/Other%20Images/barbarious.jpg>http://tomross.ancients.info/images/Other%20Images/barbarious.jpg
        >> >
        >>
        >> Tom,
        >>
        >> well, the coin is rather rough, but since the lettering
        >> seems not to be that odd and the proportion of the
        >> figures are OK too, I would say it is a official issue.
        >> Just my opinion of course.
        >>
        >> Greetings,
        >> Hannes.
        >
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        >
        >
        >
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      • Jan de Veen
        Help! Stephen Knapp, Rasiel Suarez, anyone else? ;-) We re trying to ID a rather worn AE3 coin from Tom Ross which he thought might be a barbarous issue
        Message 3 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
          Help! Stephen Knapp, Rasiel Suarez, anyone else? ;-)

          We're trying to ID a rather worn AE3 coin from Tom Ross which he thought might be a
          barbarous issue (because of the difficult and possibly garbled obverse legend), but most
          of us (including myself) think it is an official issue. Several people have had a crack at
          it now and we're still not certain what emperor it is.

          Here's Tom's original image of the coin:

          http://tomross.ancients.info/images/Other%20Images/barbarious.jpg

          I have just made an enhanced version of Tom's image and uploaded it to my site at:

          http://www.chijanofuji.com/barbarious1.jpg

          The reverse is clearly of the "VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP, two victories placing shield
          inscribed VOT PR on an altar" type but the obverse is another matter. We have a helmeted
          bust right with an nearly illegible legend, but I still say that it's not barbarous and
          that we can find the obverse legend as well!

          My initial thoughts (in fact I was convinced it was so) was that it was a Licinius II
          issue with obverse legend DN VAL LICIN LICINIVS NOB C or LICINIVS IVN NOB C but I think my
          enhanced image now clearly shows that I was imagining things as the legend clearly ends in
          SAVG or at least AVG, so we can rule him out. I think it's now a toss up between Licinius
          I or Constantine I. Looking at the obverse legend my gut feelings say it's more likely to
          be Licinius I than Constantine II and I quickly looked through RIC, VOL VII, but all I
          have been able to determine so far is that the helmeted bust right for this type seems to
          be relatively rare...

          What we probably need is some very experienced eyes looking at this. Someone who at one
          single glance will say, "oh, but his is clearly..." ;-)

          Kind regards,

          Jan de Veen

          http://www.chijanofuji.com/Roman_Coins.html

          Jan de Veen wrote:
          > Yes, you're right. Now I see too that it is helmeted and not laureate.
          > But Licinius II (the Caesar) appears helmeted on coins as well. I know this because I
          > have one in my collection: http://www.chijanofuji.com/Licinius2a.html :-)
          >
          > I'm just not sure if the VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP also exists in a
          > helmeted variety for
          > LII. But I'll wade through RIC in a moment and will definitly find this
          > out! :-)
          > Browning wrote:
          > > That's not a laureate head on his coin though. It is helmeted right.
          > > Indicating one of the Augusti.
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > > Ken Browning
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Jan de Veen <mailto:chijanofuji@...>
          > > To: Tom Ross <mailto:jawboney@...> ; Uncleaned
          > > <mailto:Uncleanedcoins@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 7:31 PM
          > > Subject: Re: [Uncleanedcoins] Re: Is this coin a barbariate
          > >
          > >
          > > Tom,
          > >
          > > I surprised myself too, but I'm pretty sure I have positively
          > > identified your coin (using
          > > Van Meter and Failmezger):
          > >
          > > It is an AE3 from Licinius II:
          > >
          > > Obverse:
          > > DN VAL LICIN LICINIVS NOB C
          > > Licinius II, his laureate head right
          > >
          > > Reverse:
          > > VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP
          > > Two victories placing shield inscribed VOT PR on an altar
          > >
          > > Reference:
          > > Van Meter, "Handbook of Roman Imperial Coins", p286, nr. 10, var.
          > > with obverse legend ol/1
          > > Failmezger, "Roman Bronze Coins From Paganism To Christianity
          > > 294-364 A.D.", nr 316LII
          > >
          > > Sorry I can't give you the absolute ID nr in RIC as well, but for
          > > that we would need to
          > > identify the mint marks in the exergue first and I don't think we're
          > > ever going to get
          > > that far with this one unless you can somehow make them out with the
          > > coin in hand! ;-)
          > >
          > > Kind regards,
          > >
          > > Jan de Veen
          > >
          > > http://www.chijanofuji.com/Roman_Coins.html
          > >
          > > Tom Ross wrote:
          > > > Hannes,
          > > >
          > > > Thank you for your response. I just can't seem to put the legend
          > > > together on this coin, the only thing that makes sence is the VOT
          > > PR on
          > > > the shield. I must have tunnel vision on this coin, do you
          > have any
          > > > idea what the legend says. I know the coin is rough.
          > > > What I see as the legend must reside souly in my imagination.
          > > > Obverse IJNLITT???JINO thats crazy.
          > > >
          > > > thanks
          > > >
          > > > Tom
          > > >
          > > > "Hannes Mayer www.ancientcoins.biz" <office@...>
          > wrote:
          > > > Tom Ross wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Hi List,
          > > > >
          > > > > The legend on this coin does not make any sense to me, does it
          > > make
          > > > sence to any of you or could it be a barbariate coin.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > http://tomross.ancients.info/images/Other%20Images/barbarious.jpg
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > > Tom,
          > > >
          > > > well, the coin is rather rough, but since the lettering
          > > > seems not to be that odd and the proportion of the
          > > > figures are OK too, I would say it is a official issue.
          > > > Just my opinion of course.
          > > >
          > > > Greetings,
          > > > Hannes.
        • Allen Belzel
          Dear List Buddies: Look at Sears (3rd ed). #3783. In that version, pg 316 there is a photo of the potential coin. (RIC 173, Cohen 633) Allen (Lexemt4) ...
          Message 4 of 23 , Sep 1, 2003
            Dear List Buddies:

            Look at Sears (3rd ed). #3783. In that version, pg 316 there is a photo of
            the potential coin. (RIC 173, Cohen 633)

            Allen (Lexemt4)


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jan de Veen" <chijanofuji@...>
            To: "Uncleanedcoins" <Uncleanedcoins@yahoogroups.com>; "Tom Ross"
            <jawboney@...>; <Moneta-L@yahoogroups.com>;
            <uncleaned@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:08 AM
            Subject: [Uncleanedcoins] VICTORIAE LAETAE PRINC PERP, VOT PR in shield -
            Help needed! :-)


            >
            > Help! Stephen Knapp, Rasiel Suarez, anyone else? ;-)
            >
            > We're trying to ID a rather worn AE3 coin from Tom Ross which he thought
            might be a
            > barbarous issue (because of the difficult and possibly garbled obverse
            legend), but most
            > of us (including myself) think it is an official issue. Several people
            have had a crack at
            > it now and we're still not certain what emperor it is.
            >
            > Here's Tom's original image of the coin:
            >
            > http://tomross.ancients.info/images/Other%20Images/barbarious.jpg
            >
            > I have just made an enhanced version of Tom's image and uploaded it to my
            site at:
            >
            > http://www.chijanofuji.com/barbarious1.jpg
            >
            > The reverse is clearly of the "VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP, two victories
            placing shield
            > inscribed VOT PR on an altar" type but the obverse is another matter. We
            have a helmeted
            > bust right with an nearly illegible legend, but I still say that it's not
            barbarous and
            > that we can find the obverse legend as well!
            >
            > My initial thoughts (in fact I was convinced it was so) was that it was a
            Licinius II
            > issue with obverse legend DN VAL LICIN LICINIVS NOB C or LICINIVS IVN NOB
            C but I think my
            > enhanced image now clearly shows that I was imagining things as the legend
            clearly ends in
            > SAVG or at least AVG, so we can rule him out. I think it's now a toss up
            between Licinius
            > I or Constantine I. Looking at the obverse legend my gut feelings say it's
            more likely to
            > be Licinius I than Constantine II and I quickly looked through RIC, VOL
            VII, but all I
            > have been able to determine so far is that the helmeted bust right for
            this type seems to
            > be relatively rare...
            >
            > What we probably need is some very experienced eyes looking at this.
            Someone who at one
            > single glance will say, "oh, but his is clearly..." ;-)
            >
            > Kind regards,
            >
            > Jan de Veen
            >
            > http://www.chijanofuji.com/Roman_Coins.html
            >
            > Jan de Veen wrote:
            > > Yes, you're right. Now I see too that it is helmeted and not laureate.
            > > But Licinius II (the Caesar) appears helmeted on coins as well. I know
            this because I
            > > have one in my collection: http://www.chijanofuji.com/Licinius2a.html
            :-)
            > >
            > > I'm just not sure if the VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP also exists in a
            > > helmeted variety for
            > > LII. But I'll wade through RIC in a moment and will definitly find this
            > > out! :-)
            > > Browning wrote:
            > > > That's not a laureate head on his coin though. It is helmeted right.
            > > > Indicating one of the Augusti.
            > > >
            > > > Regards,
            > > > Ken Browning
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: Jan de Veen <mailto:chijanofuji@...>
            > > > To: Tom Ross <mailto:jawboney@...> ; Uncleaned
            > > > <mailto:Uncleanedcoins@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 7:31 PM
            > > > Subject: Re: [Uncleanedcoins] Re: Is this coin a barbariate
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Tom,
            > > >
            > > > I surprised myself too, but I'm pretty sure I have positively
            > > > identified your coin (using
            > > > Van Meter and Failmezger):
            > > >
            > > > It is an AE3 from Licinius II:
            > > >
            > > > Obverse:
            > > > DN VAL LICIN LICINIVS NOB C
            > > > Licinius II, his laureate head right
            > > >
            > > > Reverse:
            > > > VICTORIA LAETAE PRINC PERP
            > > > Two victories placing shield inscribed VOT PR on an altar
            > > >
            > > > Reference:
            > > > Van Meter, "Handbook of Roman Imperial Coins", p286, nr. 10, var.
            > > > with obverse legend ol/1
            > > > Failmezger, "Roman Bronze Coins From Paganism To Christianity
            > > > 294-364 A.D.", nr 316LII
            > > >
            > > > Sorry I can't give you the absolute ID nr in RIC as well, but for
            > > > that we would need to
            > > > identify the mint marks in the exergue first and I don't think
            we're
            > > > ever going to get
            > > > that far with this one unless you can somehow make them out with
            the
            > > > coin in hand! ;-)
            > > >
            > > > Kind regards,
            > > >
            > > > Jan de Veen
            > > >
            > > > http://www.chijanofuji.com/Roman_Coins.html
            > > >
            > > > Tom Ross wrote:
            > > > > Hannes,
            > > > >
            > > > > Thank you for your response. I just can't seem to put the
            legend
            > > > > together on this coin, the only thing that makes sence is the
            VOT
            > > > PR on
            > > > > the shield. I must have tunnel vision on this coin, do you
            > > have any
            > > > > idea what the legend says. I know the coin is rough.
            > > > > What I see as the legend must reside souly in my imagination.
            > > > > Obverse IJNLITT???JINO thats crazy.
            > > > >
            > > > > thanks
            > > > >
            > > > > Tom
            > > > >
            > > > > "Hannes Mayer www.ancientcoins.biz" <office@...>
            > > wrote:
            > > > > Tom Ross wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > > Hi List,
            > > > > >
            > > > > > The legend on this coin does not make any sense to me, does
            it
            > > > make
            > > > > sence to any of you or could it be a barbariate coin.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >
            > > http://tomross.ancients.info/images/Other%20Images/barbarious.jpg
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > Tom,
            > > > >
            > > > > well, the coin is rather rough, but since the lettering
            > > > > seems not to be that odd and the proportion of the
            > > > > figures are OK too, I would say it is a official issue.
            > > > > Just my opinion of course.
            > > > >
            > > > > Greetings,
            > > > > Hannes.
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > Uncleanedcoins-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
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