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RE: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Lamp distances with T5 tubes

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  • Robert MacCargar
    ... So once again we are back to advising big broad beams! This time, to spread the light rather than the UV! ;-)
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 25, 2013
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      >>True. But because the rest of the vivarium where the halide is, and the rest of the room where the vivarium is, are comparatively dark I think it's possible with halides to have too bright a basking area - dazzling - especially if the halide has a small beam and is close to the substrate. In fact, Bob, I'm sure you were the first person to point this out, some time ago.
      So once again we are back to advising big broad beams! This time, to spread the light rather than the UV! ;-)<<

      Yep, that was me because we found the first MH from the factory that makes the lucky Reptile MH seemed to have animals avoide them. Henry was the one out of the 3 of us that came up with the idea about it stressing the animals with just one bright small beam light in the viv. since then, the beam has widened considerably, specially when I worked with the Raptors factory (actually the same factory and i continue to work with them).

      It seems that the 4K MH have less LUX (about 25-30k) and still looks real good and I always advise #1, 6-8 hours only!! additional lighting coming on starting with the basking bulb (halogen or other) for 12 hours and the combined with the MH should get the basking temps correct so the basking area climbs to the needed temps with the combination of the 2 lights and 5K tubes the length for 4-6 hours during the middle of the day. all together they take the "shock" out of the MH and with 3 cheap timers, make sophisticated lighting system. How many customers follow my advice? My guess is that most of my MH friends do.

      I suggest the same thing with the MV bulbs. 8-10 hours most for the MV with combo lighting for all the same reasons.

      Yea, I'm sure that there are people on the forums saying how crazy I am saying these things and that their animal is just fine with a 5.0 and a CHE but hey, got to keep my rep as the nut case. :)

      Thanks again Fran for all your hard work and dedication to further the education that was only a dream 10 years ago!


      BobMac
      http://www.reptileuv.com
      http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

      If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
      Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
      The International Reptile Conservation Foundation
      works to conserve reptiles and the
      natural habitats and ecosystems that support
      them.





      To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
      From: lilacdragon@...
      Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 22:45:07 +0000
      Subject: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Lamp distances with T5 tubes




























      > I haven't see a lux reading of the new T5's yet (missed it?)



      It's buried deep in this report in the Files:

      http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/files/Arcadia D3+ 12% UVB T5 Reptile Lamp.pdf>



      but I know the last readings from the MR were about 10-1200 at the basking distance without the halogen. Still scanty compared to the sun, unlike the MH with 30-60K lux.



      True. But because the rest of the vivarium where the halide is, and the rest of the room where the vivarium is, are comparatively dark I think it's possible with halides to have too bright a basking area - dazzling - especially if the halide has a small beam and is close to the substrate. In fact, Bob, I'm sure you were the first person to point this out, some time ago.

      So once again we are back to advising big broad beams! This time, to spread the light rather than the UV! ;-)



      My friend Rom and I have been trying out some of those chunky outdoor halide "garden floodlight" things with an Rx7s twin-ended, 70W halide for lots of light (no UVB though). We're having fun looking at the different colour rendering for human eyes, with Rom's digital camera. The consequence is that my study is really BRIGHT right now!



      Frances





















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tortoise Trust
      ... I can totally confirm that they do not bask all day. Far from it. They spend a huge percentage of their time in really very shaded conditions. They emerge
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 25, 2013
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        On 25/02/2013 21:35, lilacdawndragon wrote:
        >> >while the iguana basks pretty much all day.
        > Is his ambient (air) temperature warm enough? I don't think they bask all day in the wild...
        >
        I can totally confirm that they do not bask all day. Far from it. They
        spend a huge percentage of their time in really very shaded conditions.
        They emerge periodically to bask and forage. Juveniles spend a lot of
        time in low growth bushes and shrubs, and tend to bask by climbing to
        higher branches. They then disappear back into full shade or dappled
        sunlight. Myself and Nadine spend several weeks some years ago following
        them around in the forest in Costa Rica and Nicaragua. Unfortunately,
        that was in the days before UVB meters were available, so we could not
        get any specific data on that. Key things to note is that "inside" the
        forest is very dark indeed... and very wet... very muddy (and full of
        venomous snakes, such as the delightful fer-de-lance and the carpet
        viper). The iguanas are highly arboreal, but do spend time on the ground
        on river banks - adults more than juveniles (see photo below). They are
        rarely in what I would call "full unadulterated" sunlight - there is so
        much moisture (steam, essentially) in the air that this must knock out a
        fair amount of UV, as well as visible light. It is also (thinking back)
        a great example of "water filtered" IR. We were mainly there to study
        the tropical wood turtles (Rhinoclemmys) but Nadine kept Green Iguanas
        for 21 year, so naturally, we also took quite an interest in their
        behaviour. This is a photo of a wild Green iguana in very typical
        habitat there:

        http://www.tortoisetrust.org/images/trophab.jpg

        Andy Highfield
        Tortoise Trust
        Almeria, Spain
      • Tortoise Trust
        ... Add a big, broad beam of IR to that requirement too.... highly focused, too-narrow beams of concentrated IR are if anything, even more dangerous than
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 25, 2013
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          On 26/02/2013 00:08, Robert MacCargar wrote:
          > So once again we are back to advising big broad beams! This time, to spread the light rather than the UV! ;-)<<
          Add a big, broad beam of IR to that requirement too.... highly focused,
          too-narrow beams of concentrated IR are if anything, even more dangerous
          than narrow beams of UBV-B.

          Andy Highfield
          Tortoise Trust
          Almeria, Spain
        • anthonyngauction
          Thanks Frances Baines That was a very helpful response. With regards to the iguana basking all day, I have kept the iguana from the time it fit in my hand
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
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            Thanks Frances Baines

            That was a very helpful response.

            With regards to the iguana basking all day, I have kept the iguana from the time it fit in my hand until now that it is 6 feet long and he has been healthy. I also have all the temperatures correct. What I meant was to say that he stays in the basking platforms all day, I suspect because he wants to be "high up". The basking area of the old cage had two areas. One had a reptisun 10.0 and the other had a weaker bulb of 5.0 (which is also lower heat) and he goes between those two areas, but only comes off the platform to poo or eat etc. When he was younger he would dart all around the cage but as he got older (he is 8 years old now) he moves around less.

            So, in simple terms, if I were to use your recommendation of treating both these species as "zone 3" species, and use the "sunbeam" method since the iguana will now free roam and the tegu is in a room sized enclosure with no way of having mild UV all over, I am to provide a basking spot of between 3 - 7 UVI.

            So, Let's say I provide, 5 UVI for the tegu because he basks intermittently, and 3 - 4 for the iguana because he spends significantly more time under the lights:

            For the tegu, I would have the tube, with reflector, abot 30 - 35cm from his back? And the iguana about 40cm from his back? Does that seem about right? Keep in mind I am using the 39Watt for the tegu. Not sure what I will use for the iguana yet.

            You see this is an area of confusion for me. These are big lizards. When the tegu is in full resting position, he is 10cm thick. But if he props up, he is like 7 to 9 cm taller. And that's not even considering when he lifts his head up! The iguana can raise himself up even more. I would presume since when they are basking they are mostly laying down, that I should use the laying down measurement. But you mentioned not letting them get to a distance too close when they raise their heads, they sure can reach that high if they tried!

            I have already set up my tegu with the tube with reflector 47cm away from the floor. So it is 37cm away from his back when he is in laying down position. I was thinking of lowering it to 45cm before I read your response and knew to consider when the lizard raises their heads. I have put in temporarily the T8 zoomed 10.0 for the iguana and I will await your further response before tinkering with anything because I really want to get this right. Worst comes to worst I have to readjust things but I really value your input and expertise. These lights are only covering the basking areas. They have plenty of room to go away from it. What would you recommend that I use in specific distances for these two species for a 39W bulb for the tegu, and either 39W or 54W for the iguana, with a reflector?

            With regards to adding light and it being too bright, I find that the T5 HO UV tube alone was quite bright. I don't know if however it is good for reptile vision. I added a 39W HO 6500K white tube to the basking spot, in addition to the two 100W regular incadescents for heat, and it was WAY TO BRIGHT! My eyes hurt from across the room! I have since removed the white tube and am looking for better solutions. The regular heat lamp I use give off yellowish light, like our regular home lights. I was thinking if there are basking bulbs that give off white light? Perhaps then I can balance things out without having the brightness of UV tube + basking lights + white light?

            With regards to the old T8 tubes measuring more UV the longer the tube, you said because the UV meter was picking up "more tube". Isn't the reptile skin also going to be picking up "more tube"? i.e. if there is more UVB detected by the meter at that spot, isn't there also more UVB on the patch of reptile skin when he is laying there?

            Once again, thank you SO MUCH for your responses, and I await your further recommendations on specific distances and arrangements etc.

            --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "lilacdawndragon" <lilacdragon@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi, Anthony.
            >
            > I'll try to answer as best I can.
            >
            > All measurements need to be from the lamp surface to the lizard's skin. If the distance was measured from the substrate, then (as you point out), if a lamp had to be placed 30cm away, a large lizard could touch the lamp with his head. Clearly this would not be safe and his head would get far too much UVB.
            >
            > To explain why the distances I've mentioned in different posts seem to be "all over the place", and why the T5 lamps can be so much further away than the T8 lamps, I need to fill in some background info.
            >
            > Working with the UK zoos association BIAZA, I am developing a UV guide for zoos which simplifies UVB requirements for all species into 4 categories or "zones", and suggests suitable UV gradients within these zones.
            > Unfortunately none of the UK zoos involved in this project keep green iguanas, so I have not been sent any recommendations for these, yet. However, I am about to write to someone who has many years of expertise with this species to contribute some data.
            > No-one has yet sent any recommendations for tegus, either red or black-and-white, so I'm a bit in the dark about their basking needs, too.
            > In the meantime I am going to assume that green iguanas, at least, have lighting requirements somewhat similar to a Panther Chameleon - in other words, an arboreal, sub-tropical/tropical rainforest dweller which basks in full morning sunlight then moves into shade for the middle of the day.
            > This species has been classified as Zone 3 - an "open or partial sun-basker which actively thermoregulates".
            > I think tegus live in slightly more open, savanna-type habitat so I will guess that they are also Zone 3, but possibly experience even more sun during a typical day.
            >
            > Basking species can be offered UVB gradients in 2 ways; the "shade method", which is typically the use of long T8 or T12 UVB tubes stretching right across an enclosure - in which a low level of background UVB (like UVB in the shade on a sunny day) is provided across a large area; or the "sunbeam" method in which much higher UVB - like direct mid-morning sunlight - is provided, but restricted almost entirely to the basking area.
            > Therefore, we are suggesting (based on limited data for similar species, with UVB levels measured out in the wild) the following options for Zone 3 species:
            > Shade Method: UV Index range 1.0 - 2.6 in a large area of their enclosure, so they experience this for a large part of their day.
            > OR
            > Sunbeam Method: UV Index range 2.9 - 7.4 in just the basking area, with a gradient, likely down to zero, as they move away from the basking zone. So they experience higher UVB, but for a shorter time, each day.
            > The ranges are very vague. This is not a mistake. We simply have no data for what levels are optimum; or whether in terms of health and vitamin D production, a full day at lower UVB levels is as good as shorter periods of higher UVB. What we do know, however, is that species vary in the maximum levels which they tolerate, in the wild.
            > The ranges are considerably lower for "occasional baskers" like Chinese Water Dragons ("zone 2")and much, much lower for crepuscular and shade dwelling, non-basking species like leopard geckos("zone 1"). And higher for "mid-day baskers" like uromastyx ("Zone 4").
            > So what is really important is the GRADIENT - the reptile must be able to choose to move in and out of the UVB - and the MAXIMUM, which we have chosen as 7.4 for zone 3 species since that is the highest UV index in which a "open sun basker" was recorded exposing itself to, in full sunlight in the wild, in the study we used.
            > As a rough guide, the range UVI 3 - 7 is typical of full tropical sunlight from about 8:30am (UVI 3) to 10:00am (UVI 7)- which seems appropriate from anecdotal observations of the times reptiles are seen out and in sunlight, and measurements I've made myself, too.
            >
            > The traditional T8 tubes, even the best ZooMed ReptiSun 10.0 or Arcadia D3+ WITH a reflector fitted, are hard pressed to create UVI 2 at greater distances than about 25 - 30cm above the lizard's back. This is why they are really only suitable for the "Shade Method" and even so, must be very close to the lizard's back to provide that level.
            > But many generations of reptiles have lived good lives under T8 lamps with no reflectors, hung a lot further than 25-30cm away. So I'm not criticizing....
            > My point is, I suspect that natural sunlight as experienced by wild reptiles always provides a lot more than the bare minimum reptiles need, and if we imagine a reptile's vitamin D levels as fuel in a tank, in the wild it is almost always a full tank.
            > I also suspect that reptiles can run very well on half-full tanks for a long time, and may be perfectly healthy, although more susceptible to illness. And that this is probably the condition of many reptiles in captivity today (and humans too); perfectly healthy but more susceptible to illness than their outdoor wild cousins.
            >
            > If the "sunbeam" method is employed, there should be the opportunity for the much higher UVB to "fill up the tank" while the reptile basks, instead of the "trickle-feed" all day, with the "shade" method. How well this works has, sadly, never been satisfactorily tested to my knowledge.
            > But to do this, until the ZooMed and Arcadia T5s came out, you needed a good quality UVB mercury vapour lamp or UVB metal halide. Mercury vapour lamps such as the original MegaRay have been extremely successful used in this way, as BobMac says. The disadvantages are that the beam can be very narrow - so only a small part of a large lizard receives the "sun" level of UV - and the visible light is of poor quality, owing to a very spiky "mercury" spectrum with few colours in it.
            > When the T5 tubes came out, and I first tested one in an aluminium reflector, I was shocked by the amount of UVB (and visible light) this was producing. The UVB was easily as much as a good mercury vapour lamp! I am concerned when I see people replacing T8s with T5s at the same distance, and far more so if they fit the T5 with a reflector. We are so used to "tubes" being "weak" that we just don't get it....
            > The spectra of the T5 HO tubes from ZooMed and Arcadia are NO DIFFERENT to their T8 tubes. All that is different is the output. There is a lot more UVB; but it's all in the same proportions that have proven safe and reasonably sun-like for years. (I am only speaking of those two brands. Others may vary. Caveat emptor.) I will address BobMac's concerns regarding spectra in another post.
            >
            > But what either a ZooMed ReptiSun 10.0 or Arcadia D3+ 12% T5, fitted with a reflector, can do, is provide either the "shade method" at a greater distance above the reptile - and I'm talking about approximately 50 - 60 cm above the reptile's back for about UVI 2.0, - or they can provide the "sunbeam method" at closer distances, for example, at 40cm, one lamp I tested in one reflector gave me UVI 3.5 at 40cm and UVI 7.0 at 25cm.
            > (These distances are very approximate. Every set-up will give slightly different results. Just compare the same tube in 4 different reflectors, in the report in the Files!... and individual tubes vary, too..)
            >
            > So if I had a species like a bearded dragon, near the top of zone 3 in terms of sun-loving, I'd set up the T5 for the "sunbeam" method; I'd make sure he couldn't get nearer to that lamp than about 25cm if he really stood up tall; and had a gradient from that maximum downwards, across his basking zone - the tube would be as close as possible to the basking lamp without risking damaging the fixture from the heat.
            >
            > If I was setting up a large enclosure and I wanted the T5 tubes screwed firmly to the ceiling, at some distance from the reptile, then I would use the T5s in the "shade method" and seek to cover as large a part of the enclosure as possible with a UV Index of between 1 and 2.5. If the lizard could occasionally stretch up and get a bit closer then I would not be concerned, unless he got closer than 25cm; because I know that the UV Index of 7.0 is still perfectly safe for a Zone 3 species; it's as if he got into a sunbeam. I just haven't chosen to offer his UVB mainly in that way.
            >
            > But if the T5s screwed to the ceiling would be within the basking zone, and the lizard would only be within range when basking, well... he isn't going to be there for very long, each day. So "shade method" won't work. You'd need "sunbeam method", and that requires stronger UVB.... but the tube on the ceiling may be too far away to get the level you need. One solution would be to add a second tube. That's what I was trying to suggest in the post you mentioned. A diagram would help, but not easy to create or add to a list like this.
            > What I actually said in that post was:
            > "If Cyan only spends a short amount of time in the top basking zone, i.e., only when he's actually basking, you could consider buying a double fixture, i.e., twin tubes mounted close together, to double the UV to about UVI 3 - 4 at 40-50cm. That would be like "morning sunlight" for basking in. But he wouldn't want that much, all day long."
            > When I actually looked at the results from the tubes I realised I misjudged the effect. I corrected this in my next post; I put "you'd expect a UVI of 4 - 5 in the zone about 50cm beneath the two tubes."
            >
            > Does any of this make sense?
            >
            > You know, I reckon we all way over-think this UV thing; we try to make the measurements far too precise. If a lizard stands in a morning sunbeam, maybe his back gets UVI 6. If he moves three inches to the side, a branch provides a little dappled shade and the UVI is maybe only 4. If he turns round, that part of his back comes right out of the sun into his own shadow and maybe gets only UVI 1. All of this happens in a few seconds. Then a cloud goes across the sun and the UV drops all around, to 1.5.....
            > Likewise there is a UV gradient beneath a reptile lamp. If a lizard stands in the middle of the beam, maybe his back gets UVI 6. If he moves three inches to the side.... (you get my drift?)
            >
            > As long as the spectrum is safe, there's an adequate gradient, the lizard can't get too close and can move into shade, then if the temperatures are right (so he doesn't have to hog the basking zone (too cool) or avoid it (too hot)) then that lizard should be able to regulate his UVB exposure to suit his needs.
            > You've got a very lucky iguana and tegu, that their owner goes to so much trouble to care for them properly!
            > Good luck with your new build!
            >
            > To address a couple of your other points:
            > > 4) Do the longer, higher wattage lights give off more UVB over greater distances? Or are they just longer?
            >
            > In general, the longer tubes do give higher readings than the shorter ones, I have to say this is my experience comparing T8 18watt 24" tubes with T8 25watt 30" tubes. I think most of the difference is probably due to the meter sensor "seeing" more tube, since the thickness of the phosphor and glass seems the same, so you'd expect the output per inch to be the same. I haven't compared different lengths of T5s as I have not been donated any except for 24watt, 22-inch ones.
            > Maybe someone who's tested T5s of different lengths, could post some readings? Todd Goode? :)
            >
            > >while the iguana basks pretty much all day.
            >
            > Is his ambient (air) temperature warm enough? I don't think they bask all day in the wild...
            >
            > > 5) I plan on putting an extra white light for visibility. I was planning on buying the "double" tube controllers from Arcadia as well, but they are HO t5 controllers and thus the white light tube would also be high wattage HO type, such as the 6500K Zoo med "Ultra sun". I am worried that this may be FAR too bright?
            >
            > Not at all. Even the brightest daylight T5-HO tubes are dismally gloomy compared to real sunlight.
            > I tested a nice daylight hydroponics 6500K T5-HO recently. As close as 30cm with reflector fitted, I got 5,100 lux; at 50cm I only got 2,270 lux. I haven't tested a T5 ZooMed UltraSun but I expect it will be similar.
            > Compared to sunlight (around 100,000 lux) that's not very bright at all. But indoors I think the combination will look very nice, both you and the lizards will probably like it!
            >
            > Best wishes,
            >
            > Frances
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "anthonyngauction" <anthonyngauction@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I am wondering if Frances or anyone else who has tested these lights can give me some recommendations about this. I have been extensively researching this for a while and am still left confused.
            >
          • anthonyngauction
            Please forgive me for asking so much, but I neglected to ask the following in the last message. Obviously the tube is not exactly at where the basking light,
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
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              Please forgive me for asking so much, but I neglected to ask the following in the last message.

              Obviously the tube is not exactly at where the basking light, but slightly next to it, granted not much, just several inches away. Is it ok if I mount the reflector so that it is not directly down, but say a 15 to 20 degree angle or something so that it shines the light to the spot exactly where the basking lamps are hitting? Yes I know, I am a perfectionist! :)

              Secondly, I currently do not have any mesh between any of the lights and the lizards. However, if I find the lizards trying to jump at the tube (the iguana specifically, the more mischevious of the two), I would have to add a mesh. I can get mesh that has full 1X1 inch holes. How much would this affect the distances? They have not shown such behaviour in their old habitats, but you never know how a move can affect them, and the thinner T5 tubes just seems easier to break than the T8. Yes, I do tend to think too much, I admit.
            • anthonyngauction
              While I m at it. I was told by someone that using a bright white light next to a UVB lamp would somehow spoil the UVB? Perhaps I understood him incorrectly,
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
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                While I'm at it. I was told by someone that using a bright white light next to a UVB lamp would somehow "spoil" the UVB? Perhaps I understood him incorrectly, but something about color rendering index? I have a feeling this is incorrect information but just want to check before I go tinker with stuff.
              • vitd295nm
                Don t believe everything you are told ... or for that matter read on the internet. Easy to prove: Take a UVB reading with Model 6.2 meter while visible
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 28, 2013
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                  Don't believe everything you are "told"... or for that matter "read" on the internet. Easy to prove: Take a UVB reading with Model 6.2 meter while visible bright light is off. Then take a reading with it on.

                  UVB will not be "spoiled". You do have a 6.2 meter.... no?

                  If not... you can never prove anything. Kinda like someone "telling" you that your car mph (or kph) will be spoiled if you turn on your radio. If you have no speedometer then you might believe it!

                  --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "anthonyngauction" <anthonyngauction@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > While I'm at it. I was told by someone that using a bright white light next to a UVB lamp would somehow "spoil" the UVB? Perhaps I understood him incorrectly, but something about color rendering index? I have a feeling this is incorrect information but just want to check before I go tinker with stuff.
                  >
                • lilacdawndragon
                  Hi, Anthony. Please forgive me, for a rather short response this time.... ... The light should not be directly in the animals line of sight. So if they are
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 1, 2013
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                    Hi, Anthony.
                    Please forgive me, for a rather short response this time....

                    >Is it ok if I mount the reflector so that it is not directly down, but say a 15 to 20 degree angle or something so that it shines the light to the spot exactly where the basking lamps are hitting?

                    The light should not be directly in the animals' line of sight. So if they are acting normally, walking around and basking, etc., they aren't getting the light glaring in their eyes, because it's "overhead". In other words, they should have to deliberately tip up their heads (which they'll hardly ever do) to look right at the tubes or bulbs.
                    Any position that achieves this, is fine.

                    > I can get mesh that has full 1X1 inch holes. How much would this affect the distances?

                    Mesh is just a physical block; imagine putting a sheet of thick card in front of a lamp then cutting square holes in it. The bigger the holes, the greater percentage of light gets through.... imagine the holes getting so big, the card between the holes is as thin as wire.... and that's the effect of mesh.
                    Dense mesh where 50% of it is wire, 50% is "hole", reduces the output to 50%. Widely spaced mesh where only 10 - 15% of it is wire and 85 - 90% is "hole", reduces the output to 85 - 90%...
                    So basically... if the mesh has reasonably thin wire and large 1" gaps between wires, it doesn't really affect the distances much at all.

                    Frances
                  • lilacdawndragon
                    Hi, Anthony. You re a perfectionist. You d really benefit from buying yourself a Solarmeter 6.5 UV Index meter. It would give you a great deal of confidence, I
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 1, 2013
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                      Hi, Anthony.

                      You're a perfectionist. You'd really benefit from buying yourself a Solarmeter 6.5 UV Index meter. It would give you a great deal of confidence, I think you'd also find it very interesting to see what your lamps actually provide. (And so would we! I'd be very interested to see what you actually get, as opposed to my guesswork..)

                      To answer your questions:

                      >>What would you recommend that I use in specific distances

                      You just can't be that precise...
                      Because your lamps will vary individually, in their output and this will also change as they age.
                      And without testing your reflectors, their angles, etc, it's just NOT possible to do more than guess at the exact output your tegu and iguana will get.
                      But don't despair... you don't need to be very precise at all. In nature, there are so many gloomy and overcast days, that I'm sure we don't need to provide "perfect sunshine" all the time. So if we err on the side of caution - just make sure we don't give too much UVB - then that's likely to be the best way to do things.

                      > So, Let's say I provide, 5 UVI for the tegu because he basks intermittently, and 3 - 4 for the iguana because he spends significantly more time under the lights:
                      > For the tegu, I would have the tube, with reflector, abot 30 - 35cm from his back? And the iguana about 40cm from his back? Does that seem about right?

                      If your reflector is similar to those I tested, and if the 39W tube has a similar output at 30-35cm as a 24W tube, then that's in the range of UVI 3.5 - 6.5.
                      I'd suggest that you set it up so that if he walks into the basking zone with his head and shoulders in a normal walking position, (i.e. not looking up or reaching up) that his shoulders are about 30cm away. OK, his head will be a bit closer, briefly - but few lizards stand upright under their basking lamp for very long. And that is probably going to give a maximum UVI of around 5 or 6 as he walks in and around 3 or 4 once he lies down. I think that should be safe enough, and yet strong enough. But obviously - watch him and see what he does...

                      Likewise with your iguana. 40cm would give you a range somewhere in the region of UVI 3 - 4.5. For a species that (as BobMac and Andy Highfield say) does not bask for long periods in full sun, I'd say that'd be fine if - as for your tegu - you make the 40cm the approximate distance to his shoulders when he's standing up or sitting up with his front legs straight, the way they do... The "safety" aspect is that his head and shoulders won't get much closer than about 30cm - like the tegu - for very long at all, even when he's standing upright.
                      As you say, these are big animals. When he sits right down flat with his front legs outstretched, the UVI will be less, maybe only around 2, but that might well be what he'd get in the wild, in the light shade of trees where he'd spend most of the day.

                      >either 39W or 54W for the iguana, with a reflector?

                      If as you say, your iguana spends most of his time on his basking platform then personally, if I was setting up a UVB tube I would only extend it over one end of the platform. This would give him the option of whether he basks in UVB or not.
                      Would the 39W be a better length, to allow him some "non-UVB" space up there?
                      Again - see what he does. My Ctenosaur only sits in his UVB zone for a small part of the day; the rest of the time he's in his tree-house shelter or sitting in his non-UVB warm zone.

                      >WAY TOO BRIGHT! My eyes hurt from across the room!
                      This is puzzling to me. Do you mean you could see the naked bulbs? This is a bad idea.
                      I use 150watt metal halides with several of my lizards and these are as bright as the sun, at close range... but they are overhead and in domes, so can't be seen by the lizards or me, from the side... I can gaze into the vivs with no problem at all...

                      >Isn't the reptile skin also going to be picking up "more tube"? i.e. if there is more UVB detected by the meter at that spot, isn't there also more UVB on the patch of reptile skin when he is laying there?

                      Yes. To some extent, yes.
                      But there isn't a lot I can do about testing for that. I can't possibly buy every lamp in every size... and since every brand and every reflector and every set-up is different.... the only way to be sure is for every keeper to own a UVI meter.

                      Having said that.... a reptile body has contours and angles, it moves constantly, it casts shadows on itself and parts of it block the "view" of other parts, to a long tube. It's as if you held a meter under the tube and moved it around, tipped it at different angles... no one part of the body will get the same UVI as the next part. It's not like we are supplying UV to a large brown or green wooden rectangle...!

                      Best wishes

                      Frances

                      --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "anthonyngauction" <anthonyngauction@...> wrote:
                    • Robert MacCargar
                      Actualy Andy, that was Fran that said that, but I did mention that it was more important to focus on more even thermal conditions for your animal than complete
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                        Actualy Andy, that was Fran that said that, but I did mention that it was more important to focus on more even thermal conditions for your animal than complete coverage of UVB which of coarse would mean wide flood type IR's :)

                        BobMac
                        http://www.reptileuv.com
                        http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

                        If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
                        Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
                        The International Reptile Conservation Foundation
                        works to conserve reptiles and the
                        natural habitats and ecosystems that support
                        them.





                        To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                        From: tortoisetrust@...
                        Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 05:17:51 +0100
                        Subject: Re: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Lamp distances with T5 tubes


























                        On 26/02/2013 00:08, Robert MacCargar wrote:

                        > So once again we are back to advising big broad beams! This time, to spread the light rather than the UV! ;-)<<

                        Add a big, broad beam of IR to that requirement too.... highly focused,

                        too-narrow beams of concentrated IR are if anything, even more dangerous

                        than narrow beams of UBV-B.



                        Andy Highfield

                        Tortoise Trust

                        Almeria, Spain



















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Robert MacCargar
                        I can agree with that statement Andy. Most captive igs need to bask to keep their thermal requirements up in captivity because of the smaller spaces and
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                          I can agree with that statement Andy. Most captive igs need to "bask" to keep their thermal requirements up in captivity because of the smaller spaces and incorrect lighting/heating. but at the same time, these are an extremely diverse creature, more so than most captive lizards.

                          I would suggest (for the zillinth time) "Iguanas of the World" for some really fascinating reading. It is the first time (that i know of) that researchers gathered field information in "iguanas" in general. you can still get it here http://by163w.bay163.mail.live.com/default.aspx#!/mail/InboxLight.aspx?mid=4a10115b-8040-11e2-88c9-002264c17d7c&n=337595888!n=10872028&view=1&cmid=15c20605-7fcb-11e2-a0f3-00237de49966&csem=tortoisetrust%40aol.com&cdid=&cfid=66666666666666666666666666666666&cau=1&cmad=3914%7C0%7C8CFE1EEFC0B6300%7C00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001%7C0%7C1%7C0%7C0%7C4%7C5%2C67&cacc=1 (I still cant do the "tiny" thing so cut and paste). I wrote a short review on this book 10 or so years ago. Dr Burghardt and DR Rand "compiled" this work but both have sections that they wrote in this publication. Its to long a story how i found this by a friend that bought the publishing rights and asked me if it was worth while to put back in print and was shocked by the information that "us" igsperts didn't even know existed, so YES!!! please print it!. who knew that moving to a small town in Up State NY would open my eyes and give me such a wonderful privilege.

                          Not as much a privilege as being able to travel to Costa Rica although the friend that bought me my first UVB 6.2 meter for research has a condo there (Diane will remember her as she was in on the first meter buy from Steve that helped create this group) and was invited to visited but have never gotten any closer then a few trips to S Florida to study them and the UV they do bask in, although, not a natural environment for them, yet they thrive.

                          back to the point of the book (again, well worth reading), the type of climates and humidity that these creatures inhabit is quite diverse, as i said in the beginning. I am amazed that you had the ability to observe these crafty creatures in their natural environment as even the best hunters have a tough time getting them (which much to the thanks of education from environmental groups such as the IRCF and so many more has almost stopped). many I.iguana groups were studied and documented in rather arid and much more sparse areas in areas all over the middle and south Americas and islands.

                          I've had many wonderful conversations with Dr Burghardt (Dr rand has passed away and a super article about his life was published in "Iguana" magazine before it was the IRCF) about that part of his life (he has since passed on to so many different subjects and still teaches) with Rand in the field.

                          A friend ( Bob Fariee) of many (maybe not to many now) passed along publications of a BBC educational program "Living like Dinosaurs" A MUST SEE!!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LEj1yMUf1M) before it was ever aired here in the UAS because they used his ig eggs to make this production. Dr Burghardt said this was the island hide that he and Dr Rand used in the 60's to do most of their work! Just wonderful how things come together :)

                          Way off subject here: 40 years on and off of keeping different iguana species, and with the help of many years of experienced observers (even John Binns) will say that in general, 80-300uW/cm2 (natural sun) for 4-6 hours aday is a pretty good guesstament on how much they will in general require when allowed. I once wrote an article on the UV requirements of these wonderful animals but as Fran will tell you, as time goes by, we learn more, was based on animals that were D3 deficient and i adjusted my recommendations as time passed (such as 6-8 hours a day of UVB for any reptile as far as how long the UVB should be on).

                          sorry to have gotten so far off subject but these guys are my first love.

                          Never knew your wife loved igs!!

                          BobMac
                          http://www.reptileuv.com
                          http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

                          If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
                          Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
                          The International Reptile Conservation Foundation
                          works to conserve reptiles and the
                          natural habitats and ecosystems that support
                          them.





                          To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                          From: tortoisetrust@...
                          Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2013 05:12:38 +0100
                          Subject: Re: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Lamp distances with T5 tubes


























                          On 25/02/2013 21:35, lilacdawndragon wrote:

                          >> >while the iguana basks pretty much all day.

                          > Is his ambient (air) temperature warm enough? I don't think they bask all day in the wild...

                          >

                          I can totally confirm that they do not bask all day. Far from it. They

                          spend a huge percentage of their time in really very shaded conditions.

                          They emerge periodically to bask and forage. Juveniles spend a lot of

                          time in low growth bushes and shrubs, and tend to bask by climbing to

                          higher branches. They then disappear back into full shade or dappled

                          sunlight. Myself and Nadine spend several weeks some years ago following

                          them around in the forest in Costa Rica and Nicaragua. Unfortunately,

                          that was in the days before UVB meters were available, so we could not

                          get any specific data on that. Key things to note is that "inside" the

                          forest is very dark indeed... and very wet... very muddy (and full of

                          venomous snakes, such as the delightful fer-de-lance and the carpet

                          viper). The iguanas are highly arboreal, but do spend time on the ground

                          on river banks - adults more than juveniles (see photo below). They are

                          rarely in what I would call "full unadulterated" sunlight - there is so

                          much moisture (steam, essentially) in the air that this must knock out a

                          fair amount of UV, as well as visible light. It is also (thinking back)

                          a great example of "water filtered" IR. We were mainly there to study

                          the tropical wood turtles (Rhinoclemmys) but Nadine kept Green Iguanas

                          for 21 year, so naturally, we also took quite an interest in their

                          behaviour. This is a photo of a wild Green iguana in very typical

                          habitat there:



                          http://www.tortoisetrust.org/images/trophab.jpg



                          Andy Highfield

                          Tortoise Trust

                          Almeria, Spain

















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Tortoise Trust
                          Hi Bob, Yes - we kept rescued igs for many years. The oldest only died last year. He was 21. We were in Costa Rica primarily to study Rhinoclemmys and to film
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 4, 2013
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                            Hi Bob,

                            Yes - we kept rescued igs for many years. The oldest only died last
                            year. He was 21.

                            We were in Costa Rica primarily to study Rhinoclemmys and to film the
                            Poison dart frogs for a TV program. However, we also did as much with
                            Iguanas as time allowed. Visited some of the breeding 'ranches' there,
                            and tracked them through the forest, which was SERIOUSLY difficult and
                            hard work. However, we saw some incredible things. Two really stick in
                            my mind. One was this bright green bush, with bright green new leaves,
                            covered in very small juvenile iguanas. Dozens of them. You had to look
                            really hard as they blended in almost perfectly. The other was when we
                            crossed this old bridge over a river, and suddenly, there were splashes
                            to each side... large adults throwing themselves of branches 15-20 feet
                            high and into the water, where they swam to the sides and made off into
                            the forest. Incredible. It is an amazing habitat. We also saw Ctenosaura
                            similis, and basilisks... all very fascinating, and very different from
                            the environment we have here...

                            Andy Highfield
                            Tortoise Trust
                            Almeria, Spain
                          • Robert MacCargar
                            Well that s is really something Andy. The oldest ig we kept reached 18 before i had to put him down because of renal disease. Most reached that i kept (a
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 5, 2013
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                              Well that's is really something Andy. The oldest ig we kept reached 18 before i had to put him down because of renal disease. Most reached that i kept (a hundred or so went through our doors) up to 14. but even Doc Mader says that reptiles that have had their renal system compromised will have significantly reduced lives specially chams, so I feel we did pretty good considering the condition they came in. I did not take "drop off" animals, only dyeing ones. way to many didn't make it past their first soak.

                              My first real adoption is Juliette, our Brac from John Binns.

                              thanks again Andy!

                              BobMac
                              http://www.reptileuv.com
                              http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

                              If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
                              Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
                              The International Reptile Conservation Foundation
                              works to conserve reptiles and the
                              natural habitats and ecosystems that support
                              them.





                              To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                              From: tortoisetrust@...
                              Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2013 07:28:40 +0100
                              Subject: Re: I.iguana RE: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Lamp distances with T5 tubes


























                              Hi Bob,



                              Yes - we kept rescued igs for many years. The oldest only died last

                              year. He was 21.



                              We were in Costa Rica primarily to study Rhinoclemmys and to film the

                              Poison dart frogs for a TV program. However, we also did as much with

                              Iguanas as time allowed. Visited some of the breeding 'ranches' there,

                              and tracked them through the forest, which was SERIOUSLY difficult and

                              hard work. However, we saw some incredible things. Two really stick in

                              my mind. One was this bright green bush, with bright green new leaves,

                              covered in very small juvenile iguanas. Dozens of them. You had to look

                              really hard as they blended in almost perfectly. The other was when we

                              crossed this old bridge over a river, and suddenly, there were splashes

                              to each side... large adults throwing themselves of branches 15-20 feet

                              high and into the water, where they swam to the sides and made off into

                              the forest. Incredible. It is an amazing habitat. We also saw Ctenosaura

                              similis, and basilisks... all very fascinating, and very different from

                              the environment we have here...



                              Andy Highfield

                              Tortoise Trust

                              Almeria, Spain



















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