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Re: Too much UV light

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  • meimnot_76
    Thanks Guys! you have also answered was to be my first question here. I have an Arcadia D3 100W at one end of a 6ft table and was thinking about adding a T5
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 28, 2012
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      Thanks Guys! you have also answered was to be my first question here. I have an Arcadia D3 100W at one end of a 6ft table and was thinking about adding a T5 along the side of the table but while waiting for the T5s to be in stock here I added a ZooMed compact 5.0 in the middle of the table and a normal compact lamp at the other end for added light (there are plants and hides to provide shade at the non UV side of the table)...I guess I'll leave things as they are then.

      Thanks,
      Roderick


      --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "bob" <robertmaccargar@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi Elaine,
      >
      >
      > you actually hit on some of what i was going to answer Mike. the short version is YES!!, Way to much UV.
      >
      >
      > You are already bathing your animal in way to much UVB with the Arcadia specially if you are using the reflectors that they have. I said this during the development of this lamp that using more then a 24" is going to cause over exposure. and i was very clear that any compact using the same phosphors should not be used in a dome unless you have a UVI meter. I have asked before if anyone has done tests on compact Arcadia and domes with no response.
      >
      >
      > I have talked to way to many people that have had their animals come down with PKC since they started using the Arcadia. I have to explain that the Arcadia does not have any UVB below the 290 mark so they are simply using them to close nand over exposing them just like people that want more heat and put the Mega-Ray 6" away from their animal and generally they are using a tube that covers the length of the habitat so the poor animal can't get out of it. my recommendations include that they move the bulbs further back and cover at least 2/3's of the bulb with aluminum making sure that they have a basking bulb in both the UVB area and the none UVB area with plenty of hides.
      >
      >
      > The up side to this is that all the horticulturist that are begging me for my Zoo bulb, that is impossible to get from Westron, now has a good inexpensive source of wide spread high UVB for their plants. Its not easy to convince them of that, but its starting to catch on from what i read on the forums :)
      >
      >
      > I personally think that companies developing high UVB bulbs with untested spectrums should do serum D3 testing. I mean, dang!!! this is a no brainier and is not that expensive. its just plain out right irresponsible to sell high UVB bulbs that have not been tested if their spectrums do not match D3 tested spectrums!! my personal feeling is that these animals will have extremely high circulating D3 levels (Dr Baines feels differently but there is only one way to know). we have seen this in our own blood testing with "econo" Mega-Rays i was going to put on the market. they had great UVB and little decay. being a globe and not a reflector bulb, they had to be in a dome, so we were going to sell them as a kit with a dome and they were still going to cheaper then the original MR, and bulbs could be replaced in that same dome and the UVB could be kept consistent (just like i believe the compact fluorescents should be). Dr Baines tested them and they had no dangerous UV but the final test was blood. Yes real life blood work, not "inverto" test tube stuff. way to many studies (peer reviewed) are based on this very inaccurate testing to compare to real biological reactions such as the self limiting D3 process that takes place only in a live animal.
      >
      >
      > at the time we only had a D3 meter before Frances asked steve to make the conversion to UVI, so it appeared to be all go until the blood work came back. the D3 levels on all the adult I.iguanas that were under the classic Mega-Ray came back with excellent standards using Dr Gehrmann, Ferguson, and Holicks study http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/chuckwalla-ultraviolet-light-husbandry.pdf (I'll quote this study to comment on Mikes post as well) but the 2 animals under the Econo MR had very high D3 readings. I sent this to Dr Holick and asked why that might be. was the lab work distorted? His answer was that they had seen a lot of un natural D3 concentrations before. He had no answer at the time but did say that there were "likly" to have adverse effects over time but that no long term study had been done on naturally occurring high D3. Remember that many studies by these researchers were done with photo therapy bulbs and not reptile lamps. (if one has been done said study since then, I would love to have the link) Dr Brames and Frances suggested that the un natural UVB-UVI ratios may have obstructed the self limiting process. by then steve had re fitted my D3 meter to a UVI meter (gotta Love Steve) and we had a 10-1 UVB to UVI ratio and these guys were exposed to 150uW/cm2 of UVB to stay consistent with the Mega-Rays we were also testing. obviously the UVI readings were not the same.
      >
      >
      > so how do i feel about 10-1 UVB to UVI ratios?? well, we never marketed the econo bulb which certainly would have made us some money for a change and when Westron wouldn't work with us on fixing the "bad glass" problem even though the fix we came up with to filter the low level rads worked, we still had a 15-1 UVB to UVI bulb rather then our 30-1 Mega-Ray. We could have stayed with them and continued to sell Canada made bulbs but if they were no different then the other brands (with the exception that they would hold their UVB for 2 years), we had to go searching for 30-1 ratios. Actually in all fairness, the new Westron bulbs have a 30-1 UVB to UVI ratio but they are spot bulbs but i'll address that in Mikes answer.
      >
      >
      > I recommend (still) the ZooMed 5.0 or 10.0 with good bright lighting to complement it it and never expose the length on the habitat with secondary basking areas out of the UVB when there is no Mega-Ray to get right away. I only recommend the Arcadia for plants until they do some actual D3 work and i think all companies should do the D3 work.
      >
      >
      > Pro Exotics is a large breeder and one of the responsible ones from what i can tell (also tempgun.com) and Robin, the manager, breeds monitors without UVB. I am hoping that sometime in the future when we can recoup from the Raptor disaster, that he will allow us to do D3 testing with different bulbs on six juveniles' each. I would like to concentrate on having all the bulbs have the same UVI being the same rather then the UVB. this will allow us to get a glimpse of how the different spectrums effect the circulating D3 even if the UVI meter shows the same readings on all bulbs. I believe it will prove at least 3 things; first, Robin will see that his product (that's what breeders call their animals) will do better with UVB and second; that the closer we can get to natural %'s, the better the levels will be. and third, metal halide will be the best.
      >
      >
      > Now LED....... for Mike later
      >
      > Thanks, BM, RUV
      >
      >
      > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
      > >
      > > I have purchased an Arcadia strip 12% with D3 48" and am planning to run it as a background light along the length of my enclosure along with a Megaray 100w self ballasted.
      > > This is for Kleinmanni species which need high levels of good quality UV.
      > > Would this be too much? I can get the temps fine with this combination but just having a wobble about the levels.
      > >
      > > Many thanks,
      > > Elaine
      > >
      >
    • Robert MacCargar
      I believe that the new generation of UVB lamps are the metal halide but they have been around for a while. Florescent bulbs have now moved to the T8 and T5 but
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 1, 2012
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        I believe that the new generation of UVB lamps are the metal halide but they have been around for a while. Florescent bulbs have now moved to the T8 and T5 but they certainly not "new generation" as far as i'm concerned and will in time be banned just like the T12 has been in time. florescent is on its way out and the real next generation will be LED. the only reason that UVB LED has not been developed is $$$. unless the factories can see a big enough payoff for the research, they don't invest in it, just like drugs. Every LED factory i speak to i explain how much money can be made in the tanning and photo therapy field and we will, as reptile keepers, benefit as this becomes a reality.

        but, i guess we will have to wait and see what Fran posts on her site. I do know she has put just about every waking minute into this project. she then will be able to take the trip to Africa with her husband and get some real personal time. gotta love that woman! :)

        BobMac
        http://www.reptileuv.com
        http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

        If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
        Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
        The International Reptile Conservation Foundation works to conserve reptiles and the
        natural habitats and ecosystems that support them.








        To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
        From: elainepearman@...
        Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2012 19:07:41 +0000
        Subject: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Too much UV light





        Perhaps i have miss read this Bob.

        "Frances Baines, author of UV Guide UK, will be discussing some current theories of chelonian requirements, introducing the BIAZA Reptile and Amphibian Working Group's UV-Tool Project, and evaluating the `next generation' of UVB lamps now available."

        This is happening at the Cholchester Zoo (UK) 17 November.

        Hope this has cleared that up.
        Elaine

        PS there are still a few places left for the conference.

        --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, Robert MacCargar <robertmaccargar@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi Elaine,
        >
        > Remember, this is my opinion from my experience. I'm sure others have their own feelings on these subjects. I was not a aware of a "new UV tool". I do know that Dr Baines is working on a collaboration of research with people like Dr Ferguson for zoo use on how much UVB to supply different species. I am waiting myself to see what this about.
        >
        > best
        >
        > BobMac
        > http://www.reptileuv.com
        > http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/
        >
        > If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
        > Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
        > The International Reptile Conservation Foundation works to conserve reptiles and the
        > natural habitats and ecosystems that support them.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
        > From: elainepearman@...
        > Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2012 18:26:36 +0000
        > Subject: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Too much UV light
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Many thanks Bob.
        >
        > I haven't got the tortoises in there yet so am very pleased to have this informative feedback.
        >
        > I was hoping to wait until Francis revealed the new UV tool in November but think i really do need to invest in a reader asap.
        >
        > Huge thank you,
        > regards
        > Elaine
        >
        > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "bob" <robertmaccargar@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi Elaine,
        > >
        > >
        > > you actually hit on some of what i was going to answer Mike. the short version is YES!!, Way to much UV.
        > >
        > >
        > > You are already bathing your animal in way to much UVB with the Arcadia specially if you are using the reflectors that they have. I said this during the development of this lamp that using more then a 24" is going to cause over exposure. and i was very clear that any compact using the same phosphors should not be used in a dome unless you have a UVI meter. I have asked before if anyone has done tests on compact Arcadia and domes with no response.
        > >
        > >
        > > I have talked to way to many people that have had their animals come down with PKC since they started using the Arcadia. I have to explain that the Arcadia does not have any UVB below the 290 mark so they are simply using them to close nand over exposing them just like people that want more heat and put the Mega-Ray 6" away from their animal and generally they are using a tube that covers the length of the habitat so the poor animal can't get out of it. my recommendations include that they move the bulbs further back and cover at least 2/3's of the bulb with aluminum making sure that they have a basking bulb in both the UVB area and the none UVB area with plenty of hides.
        > >
        > >
        > > The up side to this is that all the horticulturist that are begging me for my Zoo bulb, that is impossible to get from Westron, now has a good inexpensive source of wide spread high UVB for their plants. Its not easy to convince them of that, but its starting to catch on from what i read on the forums :)
        > >
        > >
        > > I personally think that companies developing high UVB bulbs with untested spectrums should do serum D3 testing. I mean, dang!!! this is a no brainier and is not that expensive. its just plain out right irresponsible to sell high UVB bulbs that have not been tested if their spectrums do not match D3 tested spectrums!! my personal feeling is that these animals will have extremely high circulating D3 levels (Dr Baines feels differently but there is only one way to know). we have seen this in our own blood testing with "econo" Mega-Rays i was going to put on the market. they had great UVB and little decay. being a globe and not a reflector bulb, they had to be in a dome, so we were going to sell them as a kit with a dome and they were still going to cheaper then the original MR, and bulbs could be replaced in that same dome and the UVB could be kept consistent (just like i believe the compact fluorescents should be). Dr Baines tested them and they had no dangerous UV but the final test was blood. Yes real life blood work, not "inverto" test tube stuff. way to many studies (peer reviewed) are based on this very inaccurate testing to compare to real biological reactions such as the self limiting D3 process that takes place only in a live animal.
        > >
        > >
        > > at the time we only had a D3 meter before Frances asked steve to make the conversion to UVI, so it appeared to be all go until the blood work came back. the D3 levels on all the adult I.iguanas that were under the classic Mega-Ray came back with excellent standards using Dr Gehrmann, Ferguson, and Holicks study http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/chuckwalla-ultraviolet-light-husbandry.pdf (I'll quote this study to comment on Mikes post as well) but the 2 animals under the Econo MR had very high D3 readings. I sent this to Dr Holick and asked why that might be. was the lab work distorted? His answer was that they had seen a lot of un natural D3 concentrations before. He had no answer at the time but did say that there were "likly" to have adverse effects over time but that no long term study had been done on naturally occurring high D3. Remember that many studies by these researchers were done with photo therapy bulbs and not reptile lamps. (if one has been done said study since then, I would love to have the link) Dr Brames and Frances suggested that the un natural UVB-UVI ratios may have obstructed the self limiting process. by then steve had re fitted my D3 meter to a UVI meter (gotta Love Steve) and we had a 10-1 UVB to UVI ratio and these guys were exposed to 150uW/cm2 of UVB to stay consistent with the Mega-Rays we were also testing. obviously the UVI readings were not the same.
        > >
        > >
        > > so how do i feel about 10-1 UVB to UVI ratios?? well, we never marketed the econo bulb which certainly would have made us some money for a change and when Westron wouldn't work with us on fixing the "bad glass" problem even though the fix we came up with to filter the low level rads worked, we still had a 15-1 UVB to UVI bulb rather then our 30-1 Mega-Ray. We could have stayed with them and continued to sell Canada made bulbs but if they were no different then the other brands (with the exception that they would hold their UVB for 2 years), we had to go searching for 30-1 ratios. Actually in all fairness, the new Westron bulbs have a 30-1 UVB to UVI ratio but they are spot bulbs but i'll address that in Mikes answer.
        > >
        > >
        > > I recommend (still) the ZooMed 5.0 or 10.0 with good bright lighting to complement it it and never expose the length on the habitat with secondary basking areas out of the UVB when there is no Mega-Ray to get right away. I only recommend the Arcadia for plants until they do some actual D3 work and i think all companies should do the D3 work.
        > >
        > >
        > > Pro Exotics is a large breeder and one of the responsible ones from what i can tell (also tempgun.com) and Robin, the manager, breeds monitors without UVB. I am hoping that sometime in the future when we can recoup from the Raptor disaster, that he will allow us to do D3 testing with different bulbs on six juveniles' each. I would like to concentrate on having all the bulbs have the same UVI being the same rather then the UVB. this will allow us to get a glimpse of how the different spectrums effect the circulating D3 even if the UVI meter shows the same readings on all bulbs. I believe it will prove at least 3 things; first, Robin will see that his product (that's what breeders call their animals) will do better with UVB and second; that the closer we can get to natural %'s, the better the levels will be. and third, metal halide will be the best.
        > >
        > >
        > > Now LED....... for Mike later
        > >
        > > Thanks, BM, RUV
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I have purchased an Arcadia strip 12% with D3 48" and am planning to run it as a background light along the length of my enclosure along with a Megaray 100w self ballasted.
        > > > This is for Kleinmanni species which need high levels of good quality UV.
        > > > Would this be too much? I can get the temps fine with this combination but just having a wobble about the levels.
        > > >
        > > > Many thanks,
        > > > Elaine
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • lilacdawndragon
        Hi, Elaine and Bob. Sorry for the delay in replying to this.... I ve just written a few lines about the UV Tool in another thread, but to confirm - yes, I ll
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 9, 2012
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          Hi, Elaine and Bob.

          Sorry for the delay in replying to this....

          I've just written a few lines about the UV Tool in another thread, but to confirm - yes, I'll be describing the Tool in detail at the Tortoise Welfare Conference at Colchester Zoo (UK) next weekend. And hope to have an open-access, very similar thing on the UV Guide UK webside as soon as I can set it all up.

          I think maybe I need to clear up a few confusions that may be arising, owing to the very similar names that Arcadia are using for their various UVB lighting products.
          Slightly confusingly, they have called all their fluorescent tubes (both T8 and T5) AND their mercury vapour lamp, "D3".
          There are:
          T8 (Regular 1" diameter) fluorescent tubes called:
          Arcadia D3 6% UVB Reptile Lamp and
          Arcadia D3+ 12% UVB Reptile Lamp.
          There are also:
          T5 (slimline, High Output) fluorescent tubes called:
          Arcadia D3 6% UVB T5 Reptile Lamp and
          Arcadia D3+ 12% UVB T5 Reptile Lamp.
          There are also compact (energy-saving) lamps called:
          Arcadia D3 6% UVB Compact Reptile Lamp and
          Arcadia D3+ 10% UVB Compact Reptile Lamp
          and
          mercury vapour lamps (80W, 100W and 160W) called Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps.
          (They also have a new "economy" fluorescent tube range called the "Euro" range, in the T8 size only; Desert 10% and Forest 5%.)

          The phosphors used in ALL their fluorescent tubes and compact lamps are very similar; the higher percentage UVB ones simply have more of the UV-emitting phosphor. The spectrum from these phosphors appears very safe with absolutely no abnormally short-wavelength UVB and it also closely matches the tried and true ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 and 10.0.

          Bob quite rightly highlights the fact that the T5 High Output lamps, when fitted with a reflector, emit as much as most mercury vapour lamps; these are very different in output to the familiar T8 tubes and do indeed need using with respect, providing shade of course, and using minimum safe distances.
          But in my opinion, the UVB: UVI ratio from these is not of concern; it is around 30 - 40:1. There is plenty of long-wavelength UVB and short-wavelength UVA. I do not think these could create abnormally high levels of vitamin D3 in reptiles, in the way that lamps with abnormally short-wavelength UVB, or lamps with very low UVB:UVI ratios might possibly do. (That link is not decisively proven as yet, ... but definitely deserves further study)

          However, it is true that the Arcadia D3 Basking Lamp, their mercury vapour lamp, does have a lower UVB:UVI ratio. As Bob says, quite a few mercury vapour lamp brands do. It is certainly not as low as 10:1, however. The most recent samples I have tested give values between 14:1 and 17:1. These are the latest generation of Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps, by the way; both the 160W and 100W are new versions and have considerably lower total UV output than those sold earlier this year. I have only just received a sample of the new 80W and have not started testing it yet.

          Bob is right, serum 25(OH)D3 sampling is the only Gold Standard test of a lamp's ability to enable D3 synthesis. But blood tests are not everyday things and - at least here in the UK - sampling from groups of animals in a proper trial is "animal experimentation", against the law without a government license, not something that can be obtained under normal circumstances.

          Best wishes,

          Frances



          --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@...> wrote:
          >
          > Many thanks Bob.
          >
          > I haven't got the tortoises in there yet so am very pleased to have this informative feedback.
          >
          > I was hoping to wait until Francis revealed the new UV tool in November but think i really do need to invest in a reader asap.
          >
          > Huge thank you,
          > regards
          > Elaine
          >
          > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "bob" <robertmaccargar@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi Elaine,
          > >
          > >
          > > you actually hit on some of what i was going to answer Mike. the short version is YES!!, Way to much UV.
          > >
          > >
          > > You are already bathing your animal in way to much UVB with the Arcadia specially if you are using the reflectors that they have. I said this during the development of this lamp that using more then a 24" is going to cause over exposure. and i was very clear that any compact using the same phosphors should not be used in a dome unless you have a UVI meter. I have asked before if anyone has done tests on compact Arcadia and domes with no response.
          > >
          > >
          > > I have talked to way to many people that have had their animals come down with PKC since they started using the Arcadia. I have to explain that the Arcadia does not have any UVB below the 290 mark so they are simply using them to close nand over exposing them just like people that want more heat and put the Mega-Ray 6" away from their animal and generally they are using a tube that covers the length of the habitat so the poor animal can't get out of it. my recommendations include that they move the bulbs further back and cover at least 2/3's of the bulb with aluminum making sure that they have a basking bulb in both the UVB area and the none UVB area with plenty of hides.
          > >
          > >
          > > The up side to this is that all the horticulturist that are begging me for my Zoo bulb, that is impossible to get from Westron, now has a good inexpensive source of wide spread high UVB for their plants. Its not easy to convince them of that, but its starting to catch on from what i read on the forums :)
          > >
          > >
          > > I personally think that companies developing high UVB bulbs with untested spectrums should do serum D3 testing. I mean, dang!!! this is a no brainier and is not that expensive. its just plain out right irresponsible to sell high UVB bulbs that have not been tested if their spectrums do not match D3 tested spectrums!! my personal feeling is that these animals will have extremely high circulating D3 levels (Dr Baines feels differently but there is only one way to know). we have seen this in our own blood testing with "econo" Mega-Rays i was going to put on the market. they had great UVB and little decay. being a globe and not a reflector bulb, they had to be in a dome, so we were going to sell them as a kit with a dome and they were still going to cheaper then the original MR, and bulbs could be replaced in that same dome and the UVB could be kept consistent (just like i believe the compact fluorescents should be). Dr Baines tested them and they had no dangerous UV but the final test was blood. Yes real life blood work, not "inverto" test tube stuff. way to many studies (peer reviewed) are based on this very inaccurate testing to compare to real biological reactions such as the self limiting D3 process that takes place only in a live animal.
          > >
          > >
          > > at the time we only had a D3 meter before Frances asked steve to make the conversion to UVI, so it appeared to be all go until the blood work came back. the D3 levels on all the adult I.iguanas that were under the classic Mega-Ray came back with excellent standards using Dr Gehrmann, Ferguson, and Holicks study http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/chuckwalla-ultraviolet-light-husbandry.pdf (I'll quote this study to comment on Mikes post as well) but the 2 animals under the Econo MR had very high D3 readings. I sent this to Dr Holick and asked why that might be. was the lab work distorted? His answer was that they had seen a lot of un natural D3 concentrations before. He had no answer at the time but did say that there were "likly" to have adverse effects over time but that no long term study had been done on naturally occurring high D3. Remember that many studies by these researchers were done with photo therapy bulbs and not reptile lamps. (if one has been done said study since then, I would love to have the link) Dr Brames and Frances suggested that the un natural UVB-UVI ratios may have obstructed the self limiting process. by then steve had re fitted my D3 meter to a UVI meter (gotta Love Steve) and we had a 10-1 UVB to UVI ratio and these guys were exposed to 150uW/cm2 of UVB to stay consistent with the Mega-Rays we were also testing. obviously the UVI readings were not the same.
          > >
          > >
          > > so how do i feel about 10-1 UVB to UVI ratios?? well, we never marketed the econo bulb which certainly would have made us some money for a change and when Westron wouldn't work with us on fixing the "bad glass" problem even though the fix we came up with to filter the low level rads worked, we still had a 15-1 UVB to UVI bulb rather then our 30-1 Mega-Ray. We could have stayed with them and continued to sell Canada made bulbs but if they were no different then the other brands (with the exception that they would hold their UVB for 2 years), we had to go searching for 30-1 ratios. Actually in all fairness, the new Westron bulbs have a 30-1 UVB to UVI ratio but they are spot bulbs but i'll address that in Mikes answer.
        • Robert MacCargar
          ... Nobody respects Dr Baines work more then i do and i don t think anyone has put as much of their life into this kind of research for no financial
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 12, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            >>However, it is true that the Arcadia D3 Basking Lamp, their mercury vapour lamp, does have a lower UVB:UVI ratio. As Bob says, quite a few mercury vapour lamp brands do. It is certainly not as low as 10:1, however. The most recent samples I have tested give values between 14:1 and 17:1. These are the latest generation of Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps, by the way; both the 160W and 100W are new versions and have considerably lower total UV output than those sold earlier this year. I have only just received a sample of the new 80W and have not started testing it yet.<<
            Nobody respects Dr Baines work more then i do and i don't think anyone has put as much of their life into this kind of research for no financial compensation then her (actually someone crazier than me and a thousand times brighter), and I feel a bit responsible for helping create her interest in testing and experimentation but if this is the new standard that we are shooting for, my job just became a 1000 times easier. I have dozens of sample lamps that look beautiful. acid etched r115 and r95 bulbs with the halide base and reading 15-19 UBV to UVI ratios. they are plentiful and inexpensive.
            I will no longer have to send product back because it doesn't pass my current standard and stop pissing people off because we get back logged because i won't send out this type % of UVB-UVI. as stated earlier, i could have stayed with Westron and kept a Canadian made product. Dr Baines and i will have to agree to disagree on this point as with the whole animal having to be bathed in UVB to produce excellent wild normal D3 levels. and while UVB to UVI ratios are important to me, this is concerning HID lighting. when florescent are concerned, UVA becomes a very important factor as well specially with this new HO phosphors. there are just to many things we took for granted before real animal testing was done for me to just say, hey UVB-UVI looks good, it must be good just like we used to say the UVB looks good, so it must be good. it reminds me of the whole oral D3 replacements.
            Yes, there is no doubt that the ZooMed 5.0 tube saved thousands of animals when they came out (and still are!) and they are still my recommendation when the Mega-Ray is not available but i had thousands of debates about using the 5.0 with a CHE and saying that was all that was needed to keep your animal in excellent health both physical and emotionally. adding halogen and 5000k lamps were absolutely necessary to come close to completing that task.
            What i see in the future is metal halide and LED. adequate is just not acceptable to me when more is there to be had even if it cuts into the profit.
            But, i will admit, the number of animals dying from MBD is extremely low today compared to the 80's and 90's so some will just think i'm splitting hairs.
            OH, and D3 testing? It almost looks to me like you could use some of those human home D3 testing kits if your country makes it that difficult to do on reptiles

            BobMac
            http://www.reptileuv.com
            http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

            If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
            Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
            The International Reptile Conservation Foundation
            works to conserve reptiles and the
            natural habitats and ecosystems that support
            them.





            To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
            From: lilacdragon@...
            Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:34:30 +0000
            Subject: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Too much UV light


























            Hi, Elaine and Bob.



            Sorry for the delay in replying to this....



            I've just written a few lines about the UV Tool in another thread, but to confirm - yes, I'll be describing the Tool in detail at the Tortoise Welfare Conference at Colchester Zoo (UK) next weekend. And hope to have an open-access, very similar thing on the UV Guide UK webside as soon as I can set it all up.



            I think maybe I need to clear up a few confusions that may be arising, owing to the very similar names that Arcadia are using for their various UVB lighting products.

            Slightly confusingly, they have called all their fluorescent tubes (both T8 and T5) AND their mercury vapour lamp, "D3".

            There are:

            T8 (Regular 1" diameter) fluorescent tubes called:

            Arcadia D3 6% UVB Reptile Lamp and

            Arcadia D3+ 12% UVB Reptile Lamp.

            There are also:

            T5 (slimline, High Output) fluorescent tubes called:

            Arcadia D3 6% UVB T5 Reptile Lamp and

            Arcadia D3+ 12% UVB T5 Reptile Lamp.

            There are also compact (energy-saving) lamps called:

            Arcadia D3 6% UVB Compact Reptile Lamp and

            Arcadia D3+ 10% UVB Compact Reptile Lamp

            and

            mercury vapour lamps (80W, 100W and 160W) called Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps.

            (They also have a new "economy" fluorescent tube range called the "Euro" range, in the T8 size only; Desert 10% and Forest 5%.)



            The phosphors used in ALL their fluorescent tubes and compact lamps are very similar; the higher percentage UVB ones simply have more of the UV-emitting phosphor. The spectrum from these phosphors appears very safe with absolutely no abnormally short-wavelength UVB and it also closely matches the tried and true ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 and 10.0.



            Bob quite rightly highlights the fact that the T5 High Output lamps, when fitted with a reflector, emit as much as most mercury vapour lamps; these are very different in output to the familiar T8 tubes and do indeed need using with respect, providing shade of course, and using minimum safe distances.

            But in my opinion, the UVB: UVI ratio from these is not of concern; it is around 30 - 40:1. There is plenty of long-wavelength UVB and short-wavelength UVA. I do not think these could create abnormally high levels of vitamin D3 in reptiles, in the way that lamps with abnormally short-wavelength UVB, or lamps with very low UVB:UVI ratios might possibly do. (That link is not decisively proven as yet, ... but definitely deserves further study)



            However, it is true that the Arcadia D3 Basking Lamp, their mercury vapour lamp, does have a lower UVB:UVI ratio. As Bob says, quite a few mercury vapour lamp brands do. It is certainly not as low as 10:1, however. The most recent samples I have tested give values between 14:1 and 17:1. These are the latest generation of Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps, by the way; both the 160W and 100W are new versions and have considerably lower total UV output than those sold earlier this year. I have only just received a sample of the new 80W and have not started testing it yet.



            Bob is right, serum 25(OH)D3 sampling is the only Gold Standard test of a lamp's ability to enable D3 synthesis. But blood tests are not everyday things and - at least here in the UK - sampling from groups of animals in a proper trial is "animal experimentation", against the law without a government license, not something that can be obtained under normal circumstances.



            Best wishes,



            Frances



            --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@...> wrote:

            >

            > Many thanks Bob.

            >

            > I haven't got the tortoises in there yet so am very pleased to have this informative feedback.

            >

            > I was hoping to wait until Francis revealed the new UV tool in November but think i really do need to invest in a reader asap.

            >

            > Huge thank you,

            > regards

            > Elaine

            >

            > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "bob" <robertmaccargar@> wrote:

            > >

            > >

            > > Hi Elaine,

            > >

            > >

            > > you actually hit on some of what i was going to answer Mike. the short version is YES!!, Way to much UV.

            > >

            > >

            > > You are already bathing your animal in way to much UVB with the Arcadia specially if you are using the reflectors that they have. I said this during the development of this lamp that using more then a 24" is going to cause over exposure. and i was very clear that any compact using the same phosphors should not be used in a dome unless you have a UVI meter. I have asked before if anyone has done tests on compact Arcadia and domes with no response.

            > >

            > >

            > > I have talked to way to many people that have had their animals come down with PKC since they started using the Arcadia. I have to explain that the Arcadia does not have any UVB below the 290 mark so they are simply using them to close nand over exposing them just like people that want more heat and put the Mega-Ray 6" away from their animal and generally they are using a tube that covers the length of the habitat so the poor animal can't get out of it. my recommendations include that they move the bulbs further back and cover at least 2/3's of the bulb with aluminum making sure that they have a basking bulb in both the UVB area and the none UVB area with plenty of hides.

            > >

            > >

            > > The up side to this is that all the horticulturist that are begging me for my Zoo bulb, that is impossible to get from Westron, now has a good inexpensive source of wide spread high UVB for their plants. Its not easy to convince them of that, but its starting to catch on from what i read on the forums :)

            > >

            > >

            > > I personally think that companies developing high UVB bulbs with untested spectrums should do serum D3 testing. I mean, dang!!! this is a no brainier and is not that expensive. its just plain out right irresponsible to sell high UVB bulbs that have not been tested if their spectrums do not match D3 tested spectrums!! my personal feeling is that these animals will have extremely high circulating D3 levels (Dr Baines feels differently but there is only one way to know). we have seen this in our own blood testing with "econo" Mega-Rays i was going to put on the market. they had great UVB and little decay. being a globe and not a reflector bulb, they had to be in a dome, so we were going to sell them as a kit with a dome and they were still going to cheaper then the original MR, and bulbs could be replaced in that same dome and the UVB could be kept consistent (just like i believe the compact fluorescents should be). Dr Baines tested them and they had no dangerous UV but the final test was blood. Yes real life blood work, not "inverto" test tube stuff. way to many studies (peer reviewed) are based on this very inaccurate testing to compare to real biological reactions such as the self limiting D3 process that takes place only in a live animal.

            > >

            > >

            > > at the time we only had a D3 meter before Frances asked steve to make the conversion to UVI, so it appeared to be all go until the blood work came back. the D3 levels on all the adult I.iguanas that were under the classic Mega-Ray came back with excellent standards using Dr Gehrmann, Ferguson, and Holicks study http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/chuckwalla-ultraviolet-light-husbandry.pdf (I'll quote this study to comment on Mikes post as well) but the 2 animals under the Econo MR had very high D3 readings. I sent this to Dr Holick and asked why that might be. was the lab work distorted? His answer was that they had seen a lot of un natural D3 concentrations before. He had no answer at the time but did say that there were "likly" to have adverse effects over time but that no long term study had been done on naturally occurring high D3. Remember that many studies by these researchers were done with photo therapy bulbs and not reptile lamps. (if one has been done said study since then, I would love to have the link) Dr Brames and Frances suggested that the un natural UVB-UVI ratios may have obstructed the self limiting process. by then steve had re fitted my D3 meter to a UVI meter (gotta Love Steve) and we had a 10-1 UVB to UVI ratio and these guys were exposed to 150uW/cm2 of UVB to stay consistent with the Mega-Rays we were also testing. obviously the UVI readings were not the same.

            > >

            > >

            > > so how do i feel about 10-1 UVB to UVI ratios?? well, we never marketed the econo bulb which certainly would have made us some money for a change and when Westron wouldn't work with us on fixing the "bad glass" problem even though the fix we came up with to filter the low level rads worked, we still had a 15-1 UVB to UVI bulb rather then our 30-1 Mega-Ray. We could have stayed with them and continued to sell Canada made bulbs but if they were no different then the other brands (with the exception that they would hold their UVB for 2 years), we had to go searching for 30-1 ratios. Actually in all fairness, the new Westron bulbs have a 30-1 UVB to UVI ratio but they are spot bulbs but i'll address that in Mikes answer.


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Actiondisplay
            Hi Frances and Bob, Frances, thank you for listing the variety of Arcadia UV lamps. I am sure this is very helpful to folks. One thing that I have been trying
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Frances and Bob,

              Frances, thank you for listing the variety of Arcadia UV lamps.
              I am sure this is very helpful to folks.

              One thing that I have been trying to educate people on is that the percentage "%" ratings on the Arcadia (and other bulbs) is describing the Percentage of light energy out-put from the flo. tube that is in the UVB Range.

              And one thing that I try and make people aware of is that an HO t5 tube puts out more *over-all* light energy than a standard t8... about 60% +/- more.
              so....
              the stated 6% out-put from an Arcadia HO t5 can actually wind up being greater (ie: more UV per square centimeter) than say 10% from a tube with lesser overall light energy out-put. :).
              Even though "10%" sounds like it would be more than 6%.
              That one can sure confuse people.

              The beauty of it all is that Arcadia has done a fantastic job presenting this information, as well as a species by species UV guide here on their new Reptile Web-site:
              http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/lighting-guide/

              The Arcadia-Reptile.com site also gives great, easy to understand diagrams of different *species specific* cage set-ups.
              Showing suggested UV levels, basking distances and general ambient background UV recommendations.
              Correct me if I am wrong... but I think they are the first to address the whole ambient background UV issue!
              And it is very user friendly.
              Many of my LighytYourReptiles.com customers have remarked that it is THE MOST informative site out there as far as the application of UV light is concerned.
              It is not just another glossy *simplistic* product showcase web-site, but it is also a site that gives REAL easy to digest scientific information to help and educate us all take better care of our reptiles.

              Since they were mentioned below, I am now also stocking the Arcadia Mercury vapor bulbs now in 230v for the US and Canadian market.
              They are in a kit I created in that the bulbs come mated up with a step-up converters to take the North American 110v household current and juice it up to 220v to match the European voltage run these MV bulbs.
              Plug and Play.

              On these D3 basking's... The first thing I noted was that their UV out-put does seem to be better "in tune" with the heat out-put than some other bulbs!
              As we know, in some MV bulbs that have a quite high UV out-put, you end up having to put the bulb so darn far away... it actually starts to NEGATE the usefulness as a basking lamp because it will not create high enough temps. at the optimal heat basking distance.... and that sort of subverts the whole idea.

              OH yea...
              the other thing I noted is that the Arcadia D3 Mercury Vapor seem real TOUGH!
              The first time to screwed one in....
              I klutz-ed out and dropped the LIT bulb in the dome light some 6 feet onto the concrete floor as I was hanging it up.
              It kept running and stayed lit even after bouncing off the table and onto the concrete. (!)

              The filament took the shocks and kept on "ticking" just like a Timex watch or the Energizer Bunny. Ha!

              BTW, You said all you had so far was the 80 watt to test, so I would be more than happy to send you the other wattages... if no one has done so yet. :)

              Anyway, gotta' run and pack orders to ship out to stay caught up, but I just wanted to do a quick post.

              Cheers!
              Thank you.

              Todd
              www.lightyourreptiles.com
              lightyourreptiles@...

              PS.

              and please visit Arcdias lighting guide web page if anyone out there needs to review the Arcadia UV Bulb product line-ups UV out-put levels.
              They present the data with many distances given to help us all fine tune our reptile and amphibian set-ups.
              http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/lighting-guide/



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Robert MacCargar <robertmaccargar@...>
              To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com <uvb_meter_owners@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, Nov 12, 2012 3:58 pm
              Subject: RE: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Too much UV light



              >>However, it is true that the Arcadia D3 Basking Lamp, their mercury vapour
              lamp, does have a lower UVB:UVI ratio. As Bob says, quite a few mercury vapour
              lamp brands do. It is certainly not as low as 10:1, however. The most recent
              samples I have tested give values between 14:1 and 17:1. These are the latest
              generation of Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps, by the way; both the 160W and 100W are
              new versions and have considerably lower total UV output than those sold earlier
              this year. I have only just received a sample of the new 80W and have not
              started testing it yet.<<
              Nobody respects Dr Baines work more then i do and i don't think anyone has put
              as much of their life into this kind of research for no financial compensation
              then her (actually someone crazier than me and a thousand times brighter), and I
              feel a bit responsible for helping create her interest in testing and
              experimentation but if this is the new standard that we are shooting for, my
              job just became a 1000 times easier. I have dozens of sample lamps that look
              beautiful. acid etched r115 and r95 bulbs with the halide base and reading 15-19
              UBV to UVI ratios. they are plentiful and inexpensive.
              I will no longer have to send product back because it doesn't pass my current
              standard and stop pissing people off because we get back logged because i won't
              send out this type % of UVB-UVI. as stated earlier, i could have stayed with
              Westron and kept a Canadian made product. Dr Baines and i will have to agree to
              disagree on this point as with the whole animal having to be bathed in UVB to
              produce excellent wild normal D3 levels. and while UVB to UVI ratios are
              important to me, this is concerning HID lighting. when florescent are concerned,
              UVA becomes a very important factor as well specially with this new HO
              phosphors. there are just to many things we took for granted before real animal
              testing was done for me to just say, hey UVB-UVI looks good, it must be good
              just like we used to say the UVB looks good, so it must be good. it reminds me
              of the whole oral D3 replacements.
              Yes, there is no doubt that the ZooMed 5.0 tube saved thousands of animals when
              they came out (and still are!) and they are still my recommendation when the
              Mega-Ray is not available but i had thousands of debates about using the 5.0
              with a CHE and saying that was all that was needed to keep your animal in
              excellent health both physical and emotionally. adding halogen and 5000k lamps
              were absolutely necessary to come close to completing that task.
              What i see in the future is metal halide and LED. adequate is just not
              acceptable to me when more is there to be had even if it cuts into the profit.
              But, i will admit, the number of animals dying from MBD is extremely low today
              compared to the 80's and 90's so some will just think i'm splitting hairs.
              OH, and D3 testing? It almost looks to me like you could use some of those human
              home D3 testing kits if your country makes it that difficult to do on reptiles

              BobMac
              http://www.reptileuv.com
              http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

              If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
              Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
              The International Reptile Conservation Foundation
              works to conserve reptiles and the
              natural habitats and ecosystems that support
              them.





              To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
              From: lilacdragon@...
              Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2012 23:34:30 +0000
              Subject: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Too much UV light


























              Hi, Elaine and Bob.



              Sorry for the delay in replying to this....



              I've just written a few lines about the UV Tool in another thread, but to
              confirm - yes, I'll be describing the Tool in detail at the Tortoise Welfare
              Conference at Colchester Zoo (UK) next weekend. And hope to have an
              open-access, very similar thing on the UV Guide UK webside as soon as I can set
              it all up.



              I think maybe I need to clear up a few confusions that may be arising, owing to
              the very similar names that Arcadia are using for their various UVB lighting
              products.

              Slightly confusingly, they have called all their fluorescent tubes (both T8 and
              T5) AND their mercury vapour lamp, "D3".

              There are:

              T8 (Regular 1" diameter) fluorescent tubes called:

              Arcadia D3 6% UVB Reptile Lamp and

              Arcadia D3+ 12% UVB Reptile Lamp.

              There are also:

              T5 (slimline, High Output) fluorescent tubes called:

              Arcadia D3 6% UVB T5 Reptile Lamp and

              Arcadia D3+ 12% UVB T5 Reptile Lamp.

              There are also compact (energy-saving) lamps called:

              Arcadia D3 6% UVB Compact Reptile Lamp and

              Arcadia D3+ 10% UVB Compact Reptile Lamp

              and

              mercury vapour lamps (80W, 100W and 160W) called Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps.

              (They also have a new "economy" fluorescent tube range called the "Euro" range,
              in the T8 size only; Desert 10% and Forest 5%.)



              The phosphors used in ALL their fluorescent tubes and compact lamps are very
              similar; the higher percentage UVB ones simply have more of the UV-emitting
              phosphor. The spectrum from these phosphors appears very safe with absolutely no
              abnormally short-wavelength UVB and it also closely matches the tried and true
              ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 and 10.0.



              Bob quite rightly highlights the fact that the T5 High Output lamps, when fitted
              with a reflector, emit as much as most mercury vapour lamps; these are very
              different in output to the familiar T8 tubes and do indeed need using with
              respect, providing shade of course, and using minimum safe distances.

              But in my opinion, the UVB: UVI ratio from these is not of concern; it is around
              30 - 40:1. There is plenty of long-wavelength UVB and short-wavelength UVA. I do
              not think these could create abnormally high levels of vitamin D3 in reptiles,
              in the way that lamps with abnormally short-wavelength UVB, or lamps with very
              low UVB:UVI ratios might possibly do. (That link is not decisively proven as
              yet, ... but definitely deserves further study)



              However, it is true that the Arcadia D3 Basking Lamp, their mercury vapour lamp,
              does have a lower UVB:UVI ratio. As Bob says, quite a few mercury vapour lamp
              brands do. It is certainly not as low as 10:1, however. The most recent samples
              I have tested give values between 14:1 and 17:1. These are the latest generation
              of Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps, by the way; both the 160W and 100W are new versions
              and have considerably lower total UV output than those sold earlier this year. I
              have only just received a sample of the new 80W and have not started testing it
              yet.



              Bob is right, serum 25(OH)D3 sampling is the only Gold Standard test of a lamp's
              ability to enable D3 synthesis. But blood tests are not everyday things and - at
              least here in the UK - sampling from groups of animals in a proper trial is
              "animal experimentation", against the law without a government license, not
              something that can be obtained under normal circumstances.



              Best wishes,



              Frances



              --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@...>
              wrote:

              >

              > Many thanks Bob.

              >

              > I haven't got the tortoises in there yet so am very pleased to have this
              informative feedback.

              >

              > I was hoping to wait until Francis revealed the new UV tool in November but
              think i really do need to invest in a reader asap.

              >

              > Huge thank you,

              > regards

              > Elaine

              >

              > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "bob" <robertmaccargar@> wrote:

              > >

              > >

              > > Hi Elaine,

              > >

              > >

              > > you actually hit on some of what i was going to answer Mike. the short
              version is YES!!, Way to much UV.

              > >

              > >

              > > You are already bathing your animal in way to much UVB with the Arcadia
              specially if you are using the reflectors that they have. I said this during the
              development of this lamp that using more then a 24" is going to cause over
              exposure. and i was very clear that any compact using the same phosphors should
              not be used in a dome unless you have a UVI meter. I have asked before if anyone
              has done tests on compact Arcadia and domes with no response.

              > >

              > >

              > > I have talked to way to many people that have had their animals come down
              with PKC since they started using the Arcadia. I have to explain that the
              Arcadia does not have any UVB below the 290 mark so they are simply using them
              to close nand over exposing them just like people that want more heat and put
              the Mega-Ray 6" away from their animal and generally they are using a tube that
              covers the length of the habitat so the poor animal can't get out of it. my
              recommendations include that they move the bulbs further back and cover at least
              2/3's of the bulb with aluminum making sure that they have a basking bulb in
              both the UVB area and the none UVB area with plenty of hides.

              > >

              > >

              > > The up side to this is that all the horticulturist that are begging me for
              my Zoo bulb, that is impossible to get from Westron, now has a good inexpensive
              source of wide spread high UVB for their plants. Its not easy to convince them
              of that, but its starting to catch on from what i read on the forums :)

              > >

              > >

              > > I personally think that companies developing high UVB bulbs with untested
              spectrums should do serum D3 testing. I mean, dang!!! this is a no brainier and
              is not that expensive. its just plain out right irresponsible to sell high UVB
              bulbs that have not been tested if their spectrums do not match D3 tested
              spectrums!! my personal feeling is that these animals will have extremely high
              circulating D3 levels (Dr Baines feels differently but there is only one way to
              know). we have seen this in our own blood testing with "econo" Mega-Rays i was
              going to put on the market. they had great UVB and little decay. being a globe
              and not a reflector bulb, they had to be in a dome, so we were going to sell
              them as a kit with a dome and they were still going to cheaper then the original
              MR, and bulbs could be replaced in that same dome and the UVB could be kept
              consistent (just like i believe the compact fluorescents should be). Dr Baines
              tested them and they had no dangerous UV but the
              final test was blood. Yes real life blood work, not "inverto" test tube stuff.
              way to many studies (peer reviewed) are based on this very inaccurate testing to
              compare to real biological reactions such as the self limiting D3 process that
              takes place only in a live animal.

              > >

              > >

              > > at the time we only had a D3 meter before Frances asked steve to make the
              conversion to UVI, so it appeared to be all go until the blood work came back.
              the D3 levels on all the adult I.iguanas that were under the classic Mega-Ray
              came back with excellent standards using Dr Gehrmann, Ferguson, and Holicks
              study http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/chuckwalla-ultraviolet-light-husbandry.pdf
              (I'll quote this study to comment on Mikes post as well) but the 2 animals under
              the Econo MR had very high D3 readings. I sent this to Dr Holick and asked why
              that might be. was the lab work distorted? His answer was that they had seen a
              lot of un natural D3 concentrations before. He had no answer at the time but did
              say that there were "likly" to have adverse effects over time but that no long
              term study had been done on naturally occurring high D3. Remember that many
              studies by these researchers were done with photo therapy bulbs and not reptile
              lamps. (if one has been done said study
              since then, I would love to have the link) Dr Brames and Frances suggested
              that the un natural UVB-UVI ratios may have obstructed the self limiting
              process. by then steve had re fitted my D3 meter to a UVI meter (gotta Love
              Steve) and we had a 10-1 UVB to UVI ratio and these guys were exposed to
              150uW/cm2 of UVB to stay consistent with the Mega-Rays we were also testing.
              obviously the UVI readings were not the same.

              > >

              > >

              > > so how do i feel about 10-1 UVB to UVI ratios?? well, we never marketed the
              econo bulb which certainly would have made us some money for a change and when
              Westron wouldn't work with us on fixing the "bad glass" problem even though the
              fix we came up with to filter the low level rads worked, we still had a 15-1 UVB
              to UVI bulb rather then our 30-1 Mega-Ray. We could have stayed with them and
              continued to sell Canada made bulbs but if they were no different then the other
              brands (with the exception that they would hold their UVB for 2 years), we had
              to go searching for 30-1 ratios. Actually in all fairness, the new Westron bulbs
              have a 30-1 UVB to UVI ratio but they are spot bulbs but i'll address that in
              Mikes answer.


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              Yahoo! Groups Links







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • lilacdawndragon
              Hi, Bob. I appreciate your sarcasm, and I think we should all be very grateful that you DO screen all your lamps, you refuse to accept anything with low
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi, Bob.

                I appreciate your sarcasm, and I think we should all be very grateful that you DO screen all your lamps, you refuse to accept anything with low UVB:UVI ratios, and you aim to sell only the best.
                But we are not disagreeing, on this point.

                I did not say - and I will never say - that the values I have recorded from these Arcadia lamps - or any other lamp - are "a new standard that we are shooting for". As a matter of fact I do not like these ratios at all. I would much prefer to see ratios of at least 20:1 and preferably 30:1. When you see the reports I have written for any lamp with low UVB:UVI ratio, you will see that I always say, "we do not know what the long-term effects of an abnormally high percentage of shorter-wavelength UVB will be", or words to this effect. I intend this to convey a sense of caution.

                However, the fact remains that I am not receiving any reports of eye problems (the classic sign of over-exposure to very short-wavelength UVB) at present, from the use of these lamps or any other brands. Interestingly, I have not seen any reports for a long time; since, in fact, your very good work in helping rid the marketplace of lamps made in inferior cheap quartz glass. This let through very short wavelength UVB and definitely caused some serious eye and skin problems. Your example was followed by several other companies, and I believe many others took note when requisitioning new lamps. Hence, new products over the last few years do indeed seem a lot safer...

                Yet some (like the Arcadia) do have low ratios of UVB:UVI despite spectra showing nothing below 295nm. The low ratio is because some inner coatings (? or glass) seem to be absorbing slightly higher UVB wavelengths, depressing these spikes, while leaving the shorter wavelengths untouched. This of course skews the ratio.
                This does not seem to cause eye problems. I do not know what it does to normal control of D3 synthesis, which is why I am wary of these lamps. But without clear evidence of harm, I do not have any right to say negative things about any of these products.

                As I said (in the quote below, Arcadia have recently changed the specs on their D3 mercury vapour lamps and they now emit considerably less UVB than before. However, I have been using their older, more powerful 160W version in several of my vivaria for a couple of years now, with no problems at all. These had a UVB:UVI ratio of around 20:1.

                Home D3 testing?
                I wish.
                The only home part, is the finger-pricking and putting drops of (human) blood on the test card. Even this requires a consent form to be signed by the participant. Then it's sent to the lab.
                If I sent lizard blood instead, I could be prosecuted for unlicensed animal experimentation. It is illegal to take blood samples (except as part of a specific veterinary diagnostic procedure) from any animal without a UK government license.

                Best wishes,

                Frances

                > -----Original Message-----

                I wrote:

                > >>However, it is true that the Arcadia D3 Basking Lamp, their mercury vapour lamp, does have a lower UVB:UVI ratio. As Bob says, quite a few mercury vapour lamp brands do. It is certainly not as low as 10:1, however. The most recent samples I have tested give values between 14:1 and 17:1. These are the latest generation of Arcadia D3 Basking Lamps, by the way; both the 160W and 100W are new versions and have considerably lower total UV output than those sold earlier
                this year.

                Bob wrote:
                ....but if this is the new standard that we are shooting for, my
                job just became a 1000 times easier. I have dozens of sample lamps that look beautiful. acid etched r115 and r95 bulbs with the halide base and reading 15-19 UBV to UVI ratios. they are plentiful and inexpensive. I will no longer have to send product back because it doesn't pass my current standard and stop pissing people off because we get back logged because i won't send out this type % of UVB-UVI. as stated earlier, i could have stayed with Westron and kept a Canadian made product. Dr Baines and i will have to agree to
                > disagree on this point


                > OH, and D3 testing? It almost looks to me like you could use some of those human
                > home D3 testing kits if your country makes it that difficult to do on reptiles
                >
                > BobMac
              • Robert MacCargar
                ... I wish. The only home part, is the finger-pricking and putting drops of (human) blood on the test card. Even this requires a consent form to be signed by
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 13, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  >>Home D3 testing?
                  I wish.
                  The only home part, is the finger-pricking and putting drops of (human) blood on the test card. Even this requires a consent form to be signed by the participant. Then it's sent to the lab.
                  If I sent lizard blood instead, I could be prosecuted for unlicensed animal experimentation. It is illegal to take blood samples (except as part of a specific veterinary diagnostic procedure) from any animal without a UK government license.<<

                  Sorry about the sarcasm that i really didn't mean to come across with, as hard as i try, its still in my "blood". But as you are aware, there are things that can happen over time when the natural stream of things is screwed with (for lack of scientific terms) such as with the komoto's we once spoke about. some animals will adjust to changes in the environment, many wont and may not show it for years.

                  actually Fran, you wouldn't be the one to have to do that testing, its not your job, the people making the bulbs would, and since you sent me the info on home testing i have followed it quite closely and know the difference between the different brands here in the US, and which give you a true "medical view" on the levels. My point was that there are ways to get these values. I didn't do a legal animal testing study, i took my animals to the vets for check ups and asked for the D3 testing to be done with the rest of the panels. I guess that when i actually want to be sarcastic, it goes over most heads, maybe for the best :). but the truth be known, the pirate in me would do just what you explained if there was no other way to test a new type of bulb


                  I based all of my studies and work on what God (or dumb luck depending on your views) provided on the earth and trying to follow them as closely as we can and most of them have over time become peer reviewed studies that backed up what i found. Yes, people can point to the fact that Juliette prefers to lay on a pillow (instead of a rock) in front of my glass door in the sun with at least 2 of the 5 cats and 2 dogs all starring out waiting for me to come home, is not natural. but she gets all organic food from my garden, has rotating hibiscus plants next to her basking spot (it takes 3 of them to keep her from just devouring one off) and this allows her to eat the mulch from the pot for her B vitamins and extra trace minerals, a metal halide, halogen, and and a Mega-Ray for lighting and heat, besides the widow she has which she uses to judge her wake and sleep times (she ignores the artificial light to regulate her routine).

                  Thank you for not running me through a meat grinder and as you know, i have nothing but the greatest respect for your work and what you have done to make people aware of the products available. you are the guiding light. ;)

                  Best to you

                  BobMac
                  http://www.reptileuv.com
                  http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

                  If you do nothing else today, visit and join the International Reptile
                  Conservation Foundation (IRCF) at www.IRCF.org
                  The International Reptile Conservation Foundation works to conserve reptiles and the
                  natural habitats and ecosystems that support them.








                  To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                  From: lilacdragon@...
                  Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:33:45 +0000
                  Subject: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Too much UV light





                  Hi, Bob.

                  I appreciate your sarcasm, and I think we should all be very grateful that you DO screen all your lamps, you refuse to accept anything with low UVB:UVI ratios, and you aim to sell only the best.
                  But we are not disagreeing, on this point.

                  I did not say - and I will never say - that the values I have recorded from these Arcadia lamps - or any other lamp - are "a new standard that we are shooting for". As a matter of fact I do not like these ratios at all. I would much prefer to see ratios of at least 20:1 and preferably 30:1. When you see the reports I have written for any lamp with low UVB:UVI ratio, you will see that I always say, "we do not know what the long-term effects of an abnormally high percentage of shorter-wavelength UVB will be", or words to this effect. I intend this to convey a sense of caution.

                  However, the fact remains that I am not receiving any reports of eye problems (the classic sign of over-exposure to very short-wavelength UVB) at present, from the use of these lamps or any other brands. Interestingly, I have not seen any reports for a long time; since, in fact, your very good work in helping rid the marketplace of lamps made in inferior cheap quartz glass. This let through very short wavelength UVB and definitely caused some serious eye and skin problems. Your example was followed by several other companies, and I believe many others took note when requisitioning new lamps. Hence, new products over the last few years do indeed seem a lot safer...

                  Yet some (like the Arcadia) do have low ratios of UVB:UVI despite spectra showing nothing below 295nm. The low ratio is because some inner coatings (? or glass) seem to be absorbing slightly higher UVB wavelengths, depressing these spikes, while leaving the shorter wavelengths untouched. This of course skews the ratio.
                  This does not seem to cause eye problems. I do not know what it does to normal control of D3 synthesis, which is why I am wary of these lamps. But without clear evidence of harm, I do not have any right to say negative things about any of these products.

                  As I said (in the quote below, Arcadia have recently changed the specs on their D3 mercury vapour lamps and they now emit considerably less UVB than before. However, I have been using their older, more powerful 160W version in several of my vivaria for a couple of years now, with no problems at all. These had a UVB:UVI ratio of around 20:1.

                  Home D3 testing?
                  I wish.
                  The only home part, is the finger-pricking and putting drops of (human) blood on the test card. Even this requires a consent form to be signed by the participant. Then it's sent to the lab.
                  If I sent lizard blood instead, I could be prosecuted for unlicensed animal experimentation. It is illegal to take blood samples (except as part of a specific veterinary diagnostic procedure) from any animal without a UK government license.

                  Best wishes,

                  Frances







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • sarina.wunderlich
                  Hello, ... For those who can read German or are willing to struggle through google s translation, here is a phd thesis on vitamin d, vitamin a and vitamin e
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 26, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hello,

                    --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, Robert MacCargar <robertmaccargar@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > OH, and D3 testing? It almost looks to me like you could use some of those human home D3 testing kits if your country makes it that difficult to do on reptiles

                    For those who can read German or are willing to struggle through google's translation, here is a phd thesis on vitamin d, vitamin a and vitamin e blood tests for reptiles: http://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/11703/
                    Relevant sections are 3.2.5, 5.1.3 and 5.2.3.

                    I do not fully understand the chemical explanations, but it seems, that vitamin d blood tests are extremely complicated and that the tests for humans do NOT work, at least for some reptile species, including tortoises.
                  • emeraldcoast
                    Hi Everyone,     I had someone translate the report from German to English for me. What do you think?   Summary Investigations on the determination of
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 26, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Everyone,
                       
                       
                      I had someone translate the report from German to English for me.


                      What do you think?


                       
                      Summary




                      Investigations on the determination of vitamin A, D3 and E in reptilian plasma.
                       
                      The present study is concerned with the determination of plasma concentrations of vitamin A (retinol, retinyl esters), vitamin D (25-OH-D3, 25-OH-D3-like immunoreactivity "25-OH-D3-lIR“) and vitamin E (α-tocopherol), as well as lutein and β-carotene.
                       
                      Samples were obtained from snakes, lizards, turtles and tortoises.  162 reptiles, including 33 lizards, 30 snakes, 58 tortoise and 41 turtles, were examined over a period of about 20 months. The animals lived under different conditions and were fed various diets.
                       
                      Due to the lack of substantiated research data in this field, the aim of this study is the
                      evaluation of reference ranges for vitamin A, D and E.
                       
                      Preliminary reference levels were defined as 95% percentile.
                       
                      The levels of vitamin A, D and E were examined for differences with respect to species,
                      diet, sex and exposure to UVB-light. The concentrations of vitamin A (retinol) and vitamin E
                      (α-tocopherol) are shown in Table  39.  The significantly lower levels of retinol in carnivorous
                      reptiles is remarkable.
                       
                      Lutein plasma concentrations of lizards varied between 2.0 µg/ml and 5.6 µg/ml. Turtles
                      showed mean levels of 1.5 µg/ml and tortoises showed mean levels of 0.7 µg/ml. Snakes seemed to have no lutein at all (only one individual had 0.009 µg/ml).
                       
                      A correlation between UVB-exposure and 25-OH-D3-lIR levels was observed. Levels of
                      25-OH-D3-lIR  were significantly higher in animals exposed to UVB-light. 58% of the plasma samples from animals exposed to UVB-light had 25-OH-D3-lIR levels above 100 nmol/l, whereas 86% of the plasma samples from animals not exposed to UVB-light had 25-OH-D3-lIR levels under 100 nmol/l.
                       
                      This correlation was also present in each of the groups of reptiles (i.e. turtles, tortoises, snakes and lizards). Remarkably, significantly lower levels of 25-OH-D3-lIR were found in tortoises (80% showed levels below 25 nmol/l). Only a group of free-ranging tortoises showed levels higher than 100 nmol/l.
                       
                      The α-tocopherol concentrations were significantly higher in free-ranging animals than in
                      animals kept in captivity (2.8 µg/ml, respectively 4.5 µg/ml).
                       
                      Retinyl esters and β-carotene were not detected in a significant scale in any of the plasma
                      samples.
                       
                      Table 39: Preliminary reference plasma levels of vitamin A and E, by groups:
                      Reptile Group Vitamin A (µg/ml) Vitamin E (µg/ml)
                      Turtles 0.030-0.364 3.0-20.9
                      Tortoises 0.034-0.415 0.3-6.8
                      Snakes 0.012-0.049 0.2-14.6
                      Lizards 0.049-0.372 1.6-16.1
                       
                      Ann    





                       
                      TOTALLY OWNED BY MY AMAZING ZOO CREW: 
                      2 Fire Breathing Dragons: Ms.  Bubba Rose, 4 yrs; Sir Darwin, 5y., Miss Sydney, (RIP:6-27-10), 2.5y.; Miss Precious, 18m,(RIP:1-18-09);Baby, 5y., (RIP:12-30-09); Rusty, 7y.(RIP:5-12-2012);Bubba, 7y. (RIP:2-23-12);  My Canine Crew:Romeo, RN-APBT, 9y., (RIP:12-30-08); Madison, 14y.; Sable, 13y.; Bailey, APBT Rescue, 4y. (RIP:7-1-12);Marley, BN-APBT, 5y.; Miss Sophia, 2y.,Albino Mouse, (RIP:11-18-10); 3 (12) day old Bunnies:  Honey, (RIP:7-4-10), Crystal and Magic, (RIP:7-5-10);Angel, Regal Horned Lizard, @ 16m, (RIP:5-23-10); My Avian Crew: (Cockatiels)  Prince Caesar, 6y., (Gray), Prince Kaiser, 4y., (Gray), (RIP:9-17-10), Riley Bird, 2y old, (Cinnamon Pearl);  20 Hearts of Love.  (6/3/12) 
                      "Quality of life is about treating each other well in every situation. We are the trustee's of each other's happiness & well-being in life".
                       
                       PETS ARE NOT PRODUCTS!
                      Stop Blaming The Dog.  Blame The Owner.  There is no valid reason to deprive animal lovers of their well-behaved pets.  Please vote NO on ALL BSL  (Breed Specific Legislation) .


                      --- On Mon, 11/26/12, sarina.wunderlich <Sarina_Wunderlich@...> wrote:


                      From: sarina.wunderlich <Sarina_Wunderlich@...>
                      Subject: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Too much UV light
                      To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, November 26, 2012, 3:41 AM



                       



                      Hello,

                      --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, Robert MacCargar <robertmaccargar@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > OH, and D3 testing? It almost looks to me like you could use some of those human home D3 testing kits if your country makes it that difficult to do on reptiles

                      For those who can read German or are willing to struggle through google's translation, here is a phd thesis on vitamin d, vitamin a and vitamin e blood tests for reptiles: http://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/11703/
                      Relevant sections are 3.2.5, 5.1.3 and 5.2.3.

                      I do not fully understand the chemical explanations, but it seems, that vitamin d blood tests are extremely complicated and that the tests for humans do NOT work, at least for some reptile species, including tortoises.








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • lilacdawndragon
                      Hi, everyone. Thanks, Ann, for the useful translation of the Summary of the very detailed thesis (by Dr Astrid Wiedemann.) It s good confirmation of what we
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 27, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi, everyone.

                        Thanks, Ann, for the useful translation of the Summary of the very detailed thesis (by Dr Astrid Wiedemann.)
                        It's good confirmation of what we have often hypothesised - that animals offered UVB will benefit by it, using it to raise their vitamin D3 levels.

                        However, in her Summary, Dr. Wiedemann doesn't explain the problems they encountered with the vitamin D tests (as mentioned by Sarina).
                        So to find out more, I just finished "translating" this thesis using the Google translator.
                        Since we are very much hoping that we WILL be able to use some of the human 25(OH)D3 tests on reptile blood, I just spent most of this afternoon wading through it and then also trying to understand a plethora of abstracts and papers that can be accessed via Google Scholar, on the thorny subject of the accuracy, or lack of it, of various methods for measuring 25(OH)D3 levels in human blood.

                        I'm not a biochemist so I'm not on firm ground here. But what I think I've understood, is that until recently, there were no "reference materials" available and a range of different testing methods existed. These included:
                        high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC),
                        radioimmunoassay (RIA),
                        enzyme immunoassay (IDS-EIA),
                        automated protein-binding assay,
                        and
                        liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry (LC-MS/MS).

                        Different laboratories used different methods, and even those which used the same method could vary in their results if they were sent identical samples.
                        However, the introduction in 2009 of NIST Standard Reference Materials (SRM 972 and SRM 2972) and the acceptance of the NIST and University of Ghent LC-MS/MS assays as reference measurement procedures has apparently improved things considerably. But most authors still seem to claim that there are quite wide variations between methods.

                        It is interesting to find out what type of assays have been used for the very small number of studies done on reptile blood.
                        Dr. Wiedemann says that Laing & Fraser, Ferguson, and Eatwell used a similar test to the one she used - an enzyme immunoassay.
                        However, she says Acierno, Gillespie, and Bernard used radio-immunoassays and Allen used HPLC.
                        All of these tests require deep-frozen serum, and also, comparatively large samples of blood must be taken to get enough serum to do these tests.
                        However, this makes it very difficult to do fieldwork, or to take samples from small animals.

                        A recent development, however, is the introduction of LC-MS/MS tests conducted on single, dried blood spots. Not only do these tests require only one drop of blood (although labs prefer 2 or 3 drops, as a backup) they don't require any separation of serum, or freezing, and dry blood spots on little sample cards can even be sent in the post!
                        Better still, LC-MS/MS assays are now the type used for reference measurements!
                        Results from this type of "blood spot" LC-MS/MS test have been compared favourably with traditional LC-MS/MS tests using blood and serum.
                        So as long as the chosen lab operates high standards, results should be quite acceptable.... IF... reptile blood CAN give reasonable results with this type of assay.

                        To date, I haven't seen any published results for reptile blood from a blood spot test; but two labs have claimed that they will take reptile samples, and see no reason why they shouldn't work... so... I'm still very hopeful about this.

                        Best wishes,
                        Frances

                        ps. Here are links to some of the abstracts (for all you nerdy folk out there!:-))
                        <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22141317>
                        <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21248072>
                        <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22230812>
                        <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20381436>
                        <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22265352>
                        <http://www.clinchem.org/content/58/3/486.long>
                        <http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016602>
                        <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18325178>

                        ..............................................................

                        > For those who can read German or are willing to struggle through google's translation, here is a phd thesis on vitamin d, vitamin a and vitamin e blood tests for reptiles: http://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/11703/

                        > I do not fully understand the chemical explanations, but it seems, that vitamin d blood tests are extremely complicated and that the tests for humans do NOT work, at least for some reptile species, including tortoises.
                        >
                      • elainepearman
                        I received a 6.5 solar meter for Christmas. I purchased two Arcadia 12% with D3, starters and reflectors for my new shed. ONE of these got switched on 25-11-12
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 28, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I received a 6.5 solar meter for Christmas.

                          I purchased two Arcadia 12% with D3, starters and reflectors for my new shed.

                          ONE of these got switched on 25-11-12 the readings at 28cm are 1.3
                          Second which was only switched on to ensure it worked reads 2.4 at same distance.

                          This has shocked me because it states "min" on meter which is NOT what i need for T. Klenmanni.

                          Some thing is not right here please advice.

                          Many thanks Elaine

                          --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "bob" <robertmaccargar@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Elaine,
                          >
                          >
                          > you actually hit on some of what i was going to answer Mike. the short version is YES!!, Way to much UV.
                          >
                          >
                          > You are already bathing your animal in way to much UVB with the Arcadia specially if you are using the reflectors that they have. I said this during the development of this lamp that using more then a 24" is going to cause over exposure. and i was very clear that any compact using the same phosphors should not be used in a dome unless you have a UVI meter. I have asked before if anyone has done tests on compact Arcadia and domes with no response.
                          >
                          >
                          > I have talked to way to many people that have had their animals come down with PKC since they started using the Arcadia. I have to explain that the Arcadia does not have any UVB below the 290 mark so they are simply using them to close nand over exposing them just like people that want more heat and put the Mega-Ray 6" away from their animal and generally they are using a tube that covers the length of the habitat so the poor animal can't get out of it. my recommendations include that they move the bulbs further back and cover at least 2/3's of the bulb with aluminum making sure that they have a basking bulb in both the UVB area and the none UVB area with plenty of hides.
                          >
                          >
                          > The up side to this is that all the horticulturist that are begging me for my Zoo bulb, that is impossible to get from Westron, now has a good inexpensive source of wide spread high UVB for their plants. Its not easy to convince them of that, but its starting to catch on from what i read on the forums :)
                          >
                          >
                          > I personally think that companies developing high UVB bulbs with untested spectrums should do serum D3 testing. I mean, dang!!! this is a no brainier and is not that expensive. its just plain out right irresponsible to sell high UVB bulbs that have not been tested if their spectrums do not match D3 tested spectrums!! my personal feeling is that these animals will have extremely high circulating D3 levels (Dr Baines feels differently but there is only one way to know). we have seen this in our own blood testing with "econo" Mega-Rays i was going to put on the market. they had great UVB and little decay. being a globe and not a reflector bulb, they had to be in a dome, so we were going to sell them as a kit with a dome and they were still going to cheaper then the original MR, and bulbs could be replaced in that same dome and the UVB could be kept consistent (just like i believe the compact fluorescents should be). Dr Baines tested them and they had no dangerous UV but the final test was blood. Yes real life blood work, not "inverto" test tube stuff. way to many studies (peer reviewed) are based on this very inaccurate testing to compare to real biological reactions such as the self limiting D3 process that takes place only in a live animal.
                          >
                          >
                          > at the time we only had a D3 meter before Frances asked steve to make the conversion to UVI, so it appeared to be all go until the blood work came back. the D3 levels on all the adult I.iguanas that were under the classic Mega-Ray came back with excellent standards using Dr Gehrmann, Ferguson, and Holicks study http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/chuckwalla-ultraviolet-light-husbandry.pdf (I'll quote this study to comment on Mikes post as well) but the 2 animals under the Econo MR had very high D3 readings. I sent this to Dr Holick and asked why that might be. was the lab work distorted? His answer was that they had seen a lot of un natural D3 concentrations before. He had no answer at the time but did say that there were "likly" to have adverse effects over time but that no long term study had been done on naturally occurring high D3. Remember that many studies by these researchers were done with photo therapy bulbs and not reptile lamps. (if one has been done said study since then, I would love to have the link) Dr Brames and Frances suggested that the un natural UVB-UVI ratios may have obstructed the self limiting process. by then steve had re fitted my D3 meter to a UVI meter (gotta Love Steve) and we had a 10-1 UVB to UVI ratio and these guys were exposed to 150uW/cm2 of UVB to stay consistent with the Mega-Rays we were also testing. obviously the UVI readings were not the same.
                          >
                          >
                          > so how do i feel about 10-1 UVB to UVI ratios?? well, we never marketed the econo bulb which certainly would have made us some money for a change and when Westron wouldn't work with us on fixing the "bad glass" problem even though the fix we came up with to filter the low level rads worked, we still had a 15-1 UVB to UVI bulb rather then our 30-1 Mega-Ray. We could have stayed with them and continued to sell Canada made bulbs but if they were no different then the other brands (with the exception that they would hold their UVB for 2 years), we had to go searching for 30-1 ratios. Actually in all fairness, the new Westron bulbs have a 30-1 UVB to UVI ratio but they are spot bulbs but i'll address that in Mikes answer.
                          >
                          >
                          > I recommend (still) the ZooMed 5.0 or 10.0 with good bright lighting to complement it it and never expose the length on the habitat with secondary basking areas out of the UVB when there is no Mega-Ray to get right away. I only recommend the Arcadia for plants until they do some actual D3 work and i think all companies should do the D3 work.
                          >
                          >
                          > Pro Exotics is a large breeder and one of the responsible ones from what i can tell (also tempgun.com) and Robin, the manager, breeds monitors without UVB. I am hoping that sometime in the future when we can recoup from the Raptor disaster, that he will allow us to do D3 testing with different bulbs on six juveniles' each. I would like to concentrate on having all the bulbs have the same UVI being the same rather then the UVB. this will allow us to get a glimpse of how the different spectrums effect the circulating D3 even if the UVI meter shows the same readings on all bulbs. I believe it will prove at least 3 things; first, Robin will see that his product (that's what breeders call their animals) will do better with UVB and second; that the closer we can get to natural %'s, the better the levels will be. and third, metal halide will be the best.
                          >
                          >
                          > Now LED....... for Mike later
                          >
                          > Thanks, BM, RUV
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I have purchased an Arcadia strip 12% with D3 48" and am planning to run it as a background light along the length of my enclosure along with a Megaray 100w self ballasted.
                          > > This is for Kleinmanni species which need high levels of good quality UV.
                          > > Would this be too much? I can get the temps fine with this combination but just having a wobble about the levels.
                          > >
                          > > Many thanks,
                          > > Elaine
                          > >
                          >
                        • lilacdawndragon
                          Hi, Elaine. Just to confirm (to make sure we are comparing similar sets of readings): These are regular T8 (1-inch diameter) Arcadia D3+ 12% tubes, 48 long,
                          Message 12 of 23 , Dec 28, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi, Elaine.

                            Just to confirm (to make sure we are comparing similar sets of readings):
                            These are regular T8 (1-inch diameter) Arcadia D3+ 12% tubes, 48" long, fitted with a regular clip-on T8 Arcadia reflector?
                            And when you took the measurements, you had swivelled the reflector to get the maximum reading at the place where you took the measurement, and this was about half-way down the tube's length, at a distance of 28cm?

                            (Or are we talking about the new slim T5 High-Output Arcadia D3+ 12%UVB tubes? The max length for one of these is 46", diameter is only 16mm, and they run on different, electronic ballasts.)

                            Best wishes,
                            Frances


                            --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I received a 6.5 solar meter for Christmas.
                            >
                            > I purchased two Arcadia 12% with D3, starters and reflectors for my new shed.
                            >
                            > ONE of these got switched on 25-11-12 the readings at 28cm are 1.3
                            > Second which was only switched on to ensure it worked reads 2.4 at same distance.
                            >
                            > This has shocked me because it states "min" on meter which is NOT what i need for T. Klenmanni.
                            >
                            > Some thing is not right here please advice.
                            >
                            > Many thanks Elaine
                          • elainepearman
                            Hi Frances, Yes the older Arcadia with all Arcadia fittings and fixtures. OK on 48 tube that has been running from 25 Nov 12 start = 1.3, then at 12 = 2.6,
                            Message 13 of 23 , Dec 28, 2012
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                              Hi Frances, Yes the older Arcadia with all Arcadia fittings and fixtures.

                              OK on 48" tube that has been running from 25 Nov 12

                              start = 1.3, then at 12"= 2.6, then at 36" 1.6 and finally at 48" 1.2

                              I had a ruler strapped to the back of meter pouch hence the 28 " distance.

                              What reading should i be aiming for with Kleimanni? I would have thought very much higher.

                              Many thanks Elaine

                              --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "lilacdawndragon" <lilacdragon@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi, Elaine.
                              >
                              > Just to confirm (to make sure we are comparing similar sets of readings):
                              > These are regular T8 (1-inch diameter) Arcadia D3+ 12% tubes, 48" long, fitted with a regular clip-on T8 Arcadia reflector?
                              > And when you took the measurements, you had swivelled the reflector to get the maximum reading at the place where you took the measurement, and this was about half-way down the tube's length, at a distance of 28cm?
                              >
                              > (Or are we talking about the new slim T5 High-Output Arcadia D3+ 12%UVB tubes? The max length for one of these is 46", diameter is only 16mm, and they run on different, electronic ballasts.)
                              >
                              > Best wishes,
                              > Frances
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I received a 6.5 solar meter for Christmas.
                              > >
                              > > I purchased two Arcadia 12% with D3, starters and reflectors for my new shed.
                              > >
                              > > ONE of these got switched on 25-11-12 the readings at 28cm are 1.3
                              > > Second which was only switched on to ensure it worked reads 2.4 at same distance.
                              > >
                              > > This has shocked me because it states "min" on meter which is NOT what i need for T. Klenmanni.
                              > >
                              > > Some thing is not right here please advice.
                              > >
                              > > Many thanks Elaine
                              >
                            • elainepearman
                              OOps, it is a 48 inch but the other measurements are in cm.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Dec 28, 2012
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                                OOps, it is a 48 inch but the other measurements are in cm.

                                --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Frances, Yes the older Arcadia with all Arcadia fittings and fixtures.
                                >
                                > OK on 48" tube that has been running from 25 Nov 12
                                >
                                > start = 1.3, then at 12"= 2.6, then at 36" 1.6 and finally at 48" 1.2
                                >
                                > I had a ruler strapped to the back of meter pouch hence the 28 " distance.
                                >
                                > What reading should i be aiming for with Kleimanni? I would have thought very much higher.
                                >
                                > Many thanks Elaine
                                >
                                > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "lilacdawndragon" <lilacdragon@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi, Elaine.
                                > >
                                > > Just to confirm (to make sure we are comparing similar sets of readings):
                                > > These are regular T8 (1-inch diameter) Arcadia D3+ 12% tubes, 48" long, fitted with a regular clip-on T8 Arcadia reflector?
                                > > And when you took the measurements, you had swivelled the reflector to get the maximum reading at the place where you took the measurement, and this was about half-way down the tube's length, at a distance of 28cm?
                                > >
                                > > (Or are we talking about the new slim T5 High-Output Arcadia D3+ 12%UVB tubes? The max length for one of these is 46", diameter is only 16mm, and they run on different, electronic ballasts.)
                                > >
                                > > Best wishes,
                                > > Frances
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > I received a 6.5 solar meter for Christmas.
                                > > >
                                > > > I purchased two Arcadia 12% with D3, starters and reflectors for my new shed.
                                > > >
                                > > > ONE of these got switched on 25-11-12 the readings at 28cm are 1.3
                                > > > Second which was only switched on to ensure it worked reads 2.4 at same distance.
                                > > >
                                > > > This has shocked me because it states "min" on meter which is NOT what i need for T. Klenmanni.
                                > > >
                                > > > Some thing is not right here please advice.
                                > > >
                                > > > Many thanks Elaine
                                > >
                                >
                              • vitd295nm
                                Don t attach a ruler to the meter. It will block about 20-30% of angled UV light from entering the sensor on top of meter. Use a thin rod (like a coathanger
                                Message 15 of 23 , Dec 28, 2012
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                                  Don't attach a ruler to the meter. It will block about 20-30% of angled UV light from entering the sensor on top of meter.

                                  Use a thin rod (like a coathanger bent straight) and mark various distances on it. That will not block enough UV to make any difference.

                                  --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > OOps, it is a 48 inch but the other measurements are in cm.
                                  >
                                  > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Frances, Yes the older Arcadia with all Arcadia fittings and fixtures.
                                  > >
                                  > > OK on 48" tube that has been running from 25 Nov 12
                                  > >
                                  > > start = 1.3, then at 12"= 2.6, then at 36" 1.6 and finally at 48" 1.2
                                  > >
                                  > > I had a ruler strapped to the back of meter pouch hence the 28 " distance.
                                  > >
                                  > > What reading should i be aiming for with Kleimanni? I would have thought very much higher.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many thanks Elaine
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "lilacdawndragon" <lilacdragon@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi, Elaine.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Just to confirm (to make sure we are comparing similar sets of readings):
                                  > > > These are regular T8 (1-inch diameter) Arcadia D3+ 12% tubes, 48" long, fitted with a regular clip-on T8 Arcadia reflector?
                                  > > > And when you took the measurements, you had swivelled the reflector to get the maximum reading at the place where you took the measurement, and this was about half-way down the tube's length, at a distance of 28cm?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > (Or are we talking about the new slim T5 High-Output Arcadia D3+ 12%UVB tubes? The max length for one of these is 46", diameter is only 16mm, and they run on different, electronic ballasts.)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Best wishes,
                                  > > > Frances
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I received a 6.5 solar meter for Christmas.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I purchased two Arcadia 12% with D3, starters and reflectors for my new shed.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ONE of these got switched on 25-11-12 the readings at 28cm are 1.3
                                  > > > > Second which was only switched on to ensure it worked reads 2.4 at same distance.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > This has shocked me because it states "min" on meter which is NOT what i need for T. Klenmanni.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Some thing is not right here please advice.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Many thanks Elaine
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • elainepearman
                                  Thank you. I had measured, then dropped the ruler but to be honest it could have been more accurate, i was just eager to have a go with my new present. Today
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Dec 29, 2012
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                                    Thank you.
                                    I had measured, then dropped the ruler but to be honest it could have been more accurate, i was just eager to have a go with my new present.

                                    Today at 30 cm away from strip and on a stable floor this is what i got:

                                    48" Arcadia D3 strip with reflector used since 25-11-12
                                    start 1.4
                                    12cm in 2.2
                                    24cm in 1.7
                                    36 cm in 1.7
                                    48cm 0.9
                                    This is being used for T.Kleinmanni who need high UV levels. Again any input would be useful.

                                    Many thanks Elaine
                                    --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "vitd295nm" <information@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Don't attach a ruler to the meter. It will block about 20-30% of angled UV light from entering the sensor on top of meter.
                                    >
                                    > Use a thin rod (like a coathanger bent straight) and mark various distances on it. That will not block enough UV to make any difference.
                                    >
                                    > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > OOps, it is a 48 inch but the other measurements are in cm.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi Frances, Yes the older Arcadia with all Arcadia fittings and fixtures.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > OK on 48" tube that has been running from 25 Nov 12
                                    > > >
                                    > > > start = 1.3, then at 12"= 2.6, then at 36" 1.6 and finally at 48" 1.2
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I had a ruler strapped to the back of meter pouch hence the 28 " distance.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > What reading should i be aiming for with Kleimanni? I would have thought very much higher.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Many thanks Elaine
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "lilacdawndragon" <lilacdragon@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hi, Elaine.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Just to confirm (to make sure we are comparing similar sets of readings):
                                    > > > > These are regular T8 (1-inch diameter) Arcadia D3+ 12% tubes, 48" long, fitted with a regular clip-on T8 Arcadia reflector?
                                    > > > > And when you took the measurements, you had swivelled the reflector to get the maximum reading at the place where you took the measurement, and this was about half-way down the tube's length, at a distance of 28cm?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > (Or are we talking about the new slim T5 High-Output Arcadia D3+ 12%UVB tubes? The max length for one of these is 46", diameter is only 16mm, and they run on different, electronic ballasts.)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Best wishes,
                                    > > > > Frances
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "elainepearman" <elainepearman@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I received a 6.5 solar meter for Christmas.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I purchased two Arcadia 12% with D3, starters and reflectors for my new shed.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > ONE of these got switched on 25-11-12 the readings at 28cm are 1.3
                                    > > > > > Second which was only switched on to ensure it worked reads 2.4 at same distance.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > This has shocked me because it states "min" on meter which is NOT what i need for T. Klenmanni.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Some thing is not right here please advice.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Many thanks Elaine
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Tortoise Trust
                                    ... They are very, very, rarely active at high UV-B levels. They are active very early morning, and typically, again late in the afternoon or early evening.
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 29, 2012
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                                      On 29/12/2012 17:14, elainepearman wrote:
                                      > This is being used for T.Kleinmanni who need high UV levels.
                                      They are very, very, rarely active at high UV-B levels. They are active
                                      very early morning, and typically, again late in the afternoon or early
                                      evening. You absolutely never find them out when levels are really high,
                                      because that also coincides with extreme temperatures. I measured
                                      surface temperatures of 87C at noon in the Sinai, which would rapidly
                                      bake any tortoise in contact with it. They spend many months of the year
                                      estivating, completely buried, and they are also only partly active in
                                      December-Jan-Feb through to March, when their peak activity cycle begins
                                      (March-April-May). By early June or even late May, they are usually
                                      estivating again, right through to late September/October. Note that
                                      they get zero UV-B in these periods. Even during activity periods, they
                                      spend a lot of time in dappled shade, partly buried, where levels are
                                      typically only around 30 micro-watts per sq/cm or even less. Usually,
                                      UV-B levels when they are actively grazing, are in the range of 120-160
                                      micro-watts per sq/cm. This is well within the capacity of most lamps,
                                      or even tubes to supply. They do not require 'blasting' with very high
                                      levels. Because your captive examples are active for many more days a
                                      year than wild ones, it is arguable that even lower gross levels than
                                      typical in the wild would be more than adequate as the cumulative
                                      exposure will be far greater.

                                      Andy Highfield
                                      Tortoise Trust
                                      Almeria, Spain.
                                    • lilacdawndragon
                                      Hi, Elaine. As you know, I ve been working with the UK zoo community to develop a guide based upon work by Dr.Gary Ferguson. The Ferguson Zones are a way of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 30, 2012
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                                        Hi, Elaine.

                                        As you know, I've been working with the UK zoo community to develop a guide based upon work by Dr.Gary Ferguson. The "Ferguson Zones" are a way of estimating, from the animal's basking behaviour, suitable levels of UVB to be offered in captivity.
                                        We have put Testudo kleinmanni into Ferguson Zone 3 - "open or partial sun baskers, thermoregulators" and as Andy points out, these typically bask in the morning before the sun gets very high, then shelter till late afternoon when again, the sun is quite low in the sky. As a result, they don't expose themselves to nearly as much UVB as you might think.
                                        We have described two ways of providing UVB to a reptile, based upon two sets of data from Dr. Ferguson's work. They recorded the UV Index at the reptile's location, for 15 different reptiles (none of them were tortoises - but they were looking for trends based on basking behaviour) and their results included (1) maximum readings - the highest reading recorded for that species and (2) average readings - they took ALL the readings for that species, i.e., when it was in sun or shade, and calculated the average exposure. This is of course a very great deal lower than the maximum!

                                        In captivity, indoors, in most set-ups the UVB lamp comes on at the beginning of the day and stays on all day. Unlike the sun, the UV Index does not change in intensity at all.
                                        But like the sun, there IS a UV gradient. Outdoors in sunlight, this gradient is from the middle of a patch of full sunlight, into the darkness under a rock. Indoors, this is from the closest point directly underneath the lamp, into the darkness under a rock.
                                        So we need to use this gradient - in the same way we use a heat gradient - to mimic the situation found in the wild.

                                        The first way to do this, I call the "Sunbeam Method". This places a high-intensity UV source as close as possible to the main heat and light source. "All-in-one" bulbs like mercury vapour lamps and metal halides are ideal for this, you can also use the new High-Output T5 UVB tubes in this way. Incandescent bulbs - non-UV "basking lamps" - can be used to produce additional heat and light as necessary. The idea is to produce, in the very centre of the basking zone, an area corresponding to the highest UVB level that the species would choose to bask in, in the wild. For Zone 3 species, based on Ferguson's study, we suggest this should be somewhere between UVI 3 - 7. (His data came up with the range UVI 2.9 - 7.4) Species seen regularly out in hot sun, like Red-eared Sliders, could probably be offered the higher end of the range; those that retreat into shade early (maybe from what Andy says, T. kleinmanni would be in this group?) could be offered around UVI 3 or 4 in the centre of the basking zone.
                                        However, these high-output lamps only produce these high levels of UVB in the basking zone itself. Outside of this zone, the gradient falls rapidly to close to zero, in the shady cool part of the vivarium. So using the "sunbeam" set-up, the animal gets quite high UV when he basks, (equivalent to what he might get towards the end of his morning basking time in real sunlight, when the sun is getting reasonably high) but very little when he is walking around the rest of the vivarium.

                                        The second way of supplying UVB to a reptile is the "Shade" method, and in my opinion, it is the only practical way of supplying sufficient UVB by traditional T8 fluorescent tube. The idea is to use the "average" values as suggested by those in Ferguson's study, and to offer that as a "low-level, all day" exposure. The range of "average over a whole day" exposures for Ferguson's Zone 3 species is between UVI 1.0 and 2.6.
                                        So the theory is that a long UVB fluorescent tube is set up so that it not only illuminates the basking zone, but also at least a half to two-thirds of the rest of the vivarium. The maximum UVI under this tube, for Zone 3 species, is therefore to be between 1.0 - 2.6. The tube is spreading this low-level UVI over a wide area. Apart from a shady retreat (always essential), the reptile will spend most of its day receiving the equivalent of UV "typical of full sun very early in the day, and of shade in the middle of the day".
                                        Hopefully, this will add up to a decent amount of UVB over a whole day, and match the amount provided by the "Sunbeam Method" where the reptile is under a higher UVI, but for a shorter period.

                                        One of the most vital things we could learn from an observational study of tortoises in different types of vivaria and also outdoors - currently being launched under the umbrella of the UK Tortoise Welfare Group - would be whether this does in fact hold true..

                                        PS. For all meter enthusiasts:
                                        I just looked up the readings quoted by Andy in his post below.
                                        For those of us still using the Solarmeter 6.2....
                                        A reading of 30 uW/cm2 of sunlight (with a 6.2 meter)is about UVI 0.4 (with a 6.5 meter)
                                        A reading of 120 - 160 uW/cm2 of sunlight is about UVI 1.9 - 2.7

                                        However,
                                        the range UVI 1.9 - 2.7, which Andy recorded in sunlight with grazing T. kleinmanni, would be provided by an Arcadia D3+ 12% UVB tube giving Solarmeter 6.2 readings of between about 60 - 85 uW/cm2.
                                        And his "shade" reading of UVI 0.4 would be provided by the Arcadia tube reading about 12 uW/cm2 on a Solarmeter 6.2.
                                        This is because the proportion of longer-wavelength UVB is higher in sunlight than in the light from the Arcadia tube. So the Arcadia tube is "stronger" in terms of its vitamin D3-producing ability.

                                        Best wishes,

                                        Frances



                                        --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, Tortoise Trust <tortoisetrust@...> wrote:
                                        They are very, very, rarely active at high UV-B levels. They are active very early morning, and typically, again late in the afternoon or early evening. You absolutely never find them out when levels are really high, because that also coincides with extreme temperatures. I measured surface temperatures of 87C at noon in the Sinai
                                        ..... Even during activity periods, they spend a lot of time in dappled shade, partly buried, where levels are typically only around 30 micro-watts per sq/cm or even less. Usually, UV-B levels when they are actively grazing, are in the range of 120-160 micro-watts per sq/cm.
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