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Re: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Lights and Aquatic Turtles

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  • Joe Heinen DC
    ... That is a truly bold statement. And to answer I ll jump to the end of this post ... Robert I feel perhaps you don t understand blogs. But anyway If you
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 18, 2005
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      robert wrote:

      > What an extremely interesting subject. I just had to find time to
      > respond to this thread.
      >
      > First I would like to make the bold statement the vitamin D is not found
      > in nature unless it was developed through the irradiation of UVB
      > originally.


      That is a truly bold statement. And to answer I'll jump to the end of
      this post

      >
      > Am I turning this turning into a "blog" rather then a scientific
      > discussion? I hate blogs (boring log).
      >

      Robert
      I feel perhaps you don't understand blogs. But anyway

      If you wish to be "scientific" perhaps you should quote references or
      the parameters of your research that leads to this line of thought.
      Otherwise its just opinions...not science

      --
      Joe Heinen DC

      "An invasion of armies can be resisted. But not an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo


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    • Rob
      I was bothered that somehow my water transmission results were not reading true so today I managed to find another 2 larger containers (one about 6 pint size)
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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        I was bothered that somehow my water transmission results were not
        reading true so today I managed to find another 2 larger containers
        (one about 6 pint size) which allowed UVB through. Filled them up
        with water and the readings were the same. UVB does travel through
        water to depths of at least 8 inches.

        When we consider blue light travels very well through water and UVC
        is used in fish pond filters (so obviously UVC travels through water)
        is it so strange that the ranges in between also penetrate water?

        Without meaning to be rude either the meters used at the University
        are wrong or are reading a wavelength that the Solarmeter does not.

        The solarmeter 6.2 tests UVB in the range of 280-320 nm,
        microwatts/square cm peaking at 290-300 - right in the D UVB range.

        There is an interesting article on UVB here:
        http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?
        fromPage=online&aid=222545

        You can view the full pdf text.
        Summary is UVB has been recorded up to 20m below the surface of the
        Antarctic sea.

        Unrelated:
        There is also an interesting bit towards the end on how only a small
        change in nm increases skin damage.

        regards

        Rob
      • bobmac@reptileuv.com
        ... found ... Actually it wasn t. I wrote it that way for the dramatics, to drive a point home, to keep what could be a boring topic interesting. It s a
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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          > First I would like to make the bold statement the vitamin D is not
          found
          > in nature unless it was developed through the irradiation of UVB
          > originally.


          >>That is a truly bold statement.<<

          Actually it wasn't. I wrote it that way for the dramatics, to drive a
          point home, to keep what could be a boring topic interesting. It's a
          writing tool.

          Vitamin D3 and I believe even D2 (not really a vitamin but rather
          considered to be a steroid hormone precursor) is a product of
          photosynthesis when UVB in the proper wave length breaks the B ring of
          the pro vitamin D molecule and forms pre vitamin D3. This pre vitamin D
          then undergoes several chemical changes before it becomes the active
          form of vitamin D (1,25 dihydroxyvitamin D3).

          This is basically what thousands of studies on D3 state in one form or
          another. (I could reference many of them for you but I feel you would
          learn more if you did it yourself.) If you know other wise, I and many
          others would be extremely interested.

          >>If you wish to be "scientific" perhaps you should quote references or

          the parameters of your research that leads to this line of thought.
          Otherwise its just opinions...not science <<

          This could be considered your "opinion".

          I'm not sure what in this post you would like reference to. Just because
          a stated subject is not web directed makes the material opinion instead
          of scientific fact? I do most of my "off the cuff" writing from my
          memory of the works I have read. I had to search for these two studies
          *again* today (although you could have searched for them yourself and
          expanded your knowledge as you sifted through the selection on the
          subject mater as I do) that were part of my discussion. Is there
          anything else specific you want reference to or was it just a "general"
          complaint Joe?


          Vitamin D3 source for fish;
          http://ask.lub.lu.se/archive/00018228/01/bjorn_wang_Plant_Ecology_2001.p
          df
          UVB travels through water at 21cm;
          http://www.cerc.usgs.gov/pubs/center/pdfDocs/90870.pdf

          (Or were you pointing to the avian comment of how they get their D3?
          This is pretty common knowledge and easily found on the net.)

          Now you have to read these. There is a huge amount of material on these
          subjects. When searching for topics, use multiple search engines and try
          switching the main subjects around, as an example; water UVB, to UVB
          water. This will suck more papers out of the same engine. Remember that
          the first page is not the only page. There can be 150 hits on a subject
          and you may have to skim 30 or so to find your hit.

          >>Robert
          I feel perhaps you don't understand blogs.<<

          This is absolutely true and it just may be that I'm a bit envious of
          those that have the time to read or write such things. I can't find the
          time to read (as in really study) so much reference work that is
          sub-related when I am looking for a specific subject, and I am
          constantly 3-5 articles behind in my writing.

          I was hopping for a little better rebuttal then this. It was a really
          exciting thread.

          Best regards,

          BobMacCargar
          http://www.reptileuv.com
          Visit and learn;
          http://www.uvguide.co.uk
          http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

          If you do nothing else today, visit and join the INTERNATIONAL REPTILE
          CONSERVATION FOUNDATION
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        • lilacdawndragon
          Joe, no need to be sarcastic; I think BobMac s statement is not an opinion. Just today (by coincidence maybe? lol) I read a paper which could quite easily be
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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            Joe, no need to be sarcastic; I think BobMac's statement is not an opinion.

            Just today (by coincidence maybe? lol) I read a paper which could quite easily be BobMac's reference.

            Is provitamin D a UV-B receptor in plants? Bjoern, LO; Wang, T Plant Ecology [Plant Ecol.]. Vol. 154, no. 1-2, pp. 1-8. Jun 2001.

            You can access the entire paper online at:
            http://ask.lub.lu.se/archive/00018228/01/bjorn_wang_Plant_Ecology_2001.pdf


            It is an article about the synthesis of D2 and D3 by plants. This struck me as weird, because we "all know" that plants "only" synthesise D2... well, that is apparently a myth (like the polar bear's fur soaking up the heat) so presumably, plants grown outdoors in natural UVB-containing sunlight are a better source of D3 than those grown behind glass... but I digress. (I don't write blogs, I just talk to myself in long boring emails that always digress...)

            Anyway. The pertinent extract from this paper regarding vit D synthesis is this bit:

            Recently Curino et al. (1998) made the startling discovery that Solanum glaucophyllum cells are able to synthesise vitamin D3 and its derivatives in darkness. This is the only documented case of vitamin D3 synthesis in the absence of UV-B. Solanum glaucophyllum is a very special plant which accumulates large amounts of dihydroxy vitamin D3 as a protection against grazing mammals.

            Sooo... Bob Mac's statement is true. Not in the sense of absolute truth, since there is one known exception. But true in the scientific sense, ie. the probability of his statement being incorrect is almost certainly less than 0.001 (p>0.001)

            Hope that helps!

            Frances


            --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, Joe Heinen DC <joeheinendc@b...> wrote:
            >
            > robert wrote:
            >
            > > What an extremely interesting subject. I just had to find time to
            > > respond to this thread.
            > >
            > > First I would like to make the bold statement the vitamin D is not found
            > > in nature unless it was developed through the irradiation of UVB
            > > originally.
            >
            >
            > That is a truly bold statement. And to answer I'll jump to the end of
            > this post
            >
            > >
            > > Am I turning this turning into a "blog" rather then a scientific
            > > discussion? I hate blogs (boring log).
            > >
            >
            > Robert
            > I feel perhaps you don't understand blogs. But anyway
            >
            > If you wish to be "scientific" perhaps you should quote references or
            > the parameters of your research that leads to this line of thought.
            > Otherwise its just opinions...not science
            >
            > --
            > Joe Heinen DC




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joe Heinen DC
            ... No Bob That won t be necessary. I have read hundreds of research papers on Vitamin D. My main interest is its role in inflammation. But in all I have read,
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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              bobmac@... wrote:

              >
              >
              > This is basically what thousands of studies on D3 state in one form or
              > another. (I could reference many of them for you but I feel you would
              > learn more if you did it yourself.) If you know other wise, I and many
              > others would be extremely interested.


              No Bob
              That won't be necessary. I have read hundreds of research papers on
              Vitamin D. My main interest is its role in inflammation. But in all I
              have read, I have never seen it stated that " vitamin D is not found in
              nature unless it was developed through the irradiation of UVB originally."
              If you have direct references to that I would be interested


              > Is there
              > anything else specific you want reference to or was it just a "general"
              > complaint Joe?

              great articles but see above

              >
              > Now you have to read these. There is a huge amount of material on these
              > subjects. When searching for topics, use multiple search engines and try
              > switching the main subjects around, as an example; water UVB, to UVB
              > water. This will suck more papers out of the same engine. Remember that
              > the first page is not the only page. There can be 150 hits on a subject
              > and you may have to skim 30 or so to find your hit.


              Actually I prefer to read articles from peer reviewed journal listed in
              Pubmed rather than searching websites
              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed



              --
              Joe Heinen DC

              "An invasion of armies can be resisted. But not an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo


              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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              http://carolinapetsupply.com http://crswebhost.com/
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              http://www.russiantortoise.org
              http://aboxturtle.com
              http://africantortoise.com
              http://maturtlerescue.org
            • lilacdawndragon
              Whoops. Typo. p
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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                Whoops.
                Typo.
                p<0.01
                Sorry.
                F

                >But true in the scientific sense, ie. the probability of his
                >statement being incorrect is almost certainly less than 0.001 (p>0.001)
              • Joe Heinen DC
                ... No sarcasm intended ... So Bobs statement is false vitamin D is not found in nature unless it was developed through the irradiation of UVB originally.
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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                  lilacdawndragon wrote:

                  >
                  > Joe, no need to be sarcastic; I think BobMac's statement is not an
                  > opinion.

                  No sarcasm intended

                  >
                  >
                  > Recently Curino et al. (1998) made the startling discovery that
                  > Solanum glaucophyllum cells are able to synthesise vitamin D3 and its
                  > derivatives in darkness. This is the only documented case of vitamin
                  > D3 synthesis in the absence of UV-B.
                  >

                  So Bobs statement is false " vitamin D is not found in nature unless it
                  was developed through the irradiation of UVB originally."



                  --
                  Joe Heinen DC

                  "An invasion of armies can be resisted. But not an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo


                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  Carolina Pet Supply CRS Web Host
                  http://carolinapetsupply.com http://crswebhost.com/
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  http://www.russiantortoise.org
                  http://aboxturtle.com
                  http://africantortoise.com
                  http://maturtlerescue.org
                • bobmac@reptileuv.com
                  This once wonderful thread has now become a personal battle of the wits and is ended simply because it s counter productive at this point. Fran, thanks for
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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                    This once wonderful thread has now become a personal battle of the wits
                    and is ended simply because it's counter productive at this point.

                    Fran, thanks for showing some common sense. I knew you would enjoy that
                    paper. I also knew you would catch the D3 plant reference.


                    Everybody please have a nice day!


                    Best regards,

                    BobMacCargar
                    http://www.reptileuv.com
                    Visit and learn;
                    http://www.uvguide.co.uk
                    http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/

                    If you do nothing else today, visit and join the INTERNATIONAL REPTILE
                    CONSERVATION FOUNDATION
                    at http://www.ircf.org/



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Heinen DC
                    Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 7:49 PM
                    To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Lights and Aquatic Turtles

                    lilacdawndragon wrote:

                    >
                    > Joe, no need to be sarcastic; I think BobMac's statement is not an
                    > opinion.

                    No sarcasm intended

                    >
                    >
                    > Recently Curino et al. (1998) made the startling discovery that
                    > Solanum glaucophyllum cells are able to synthesise vitamin D3 and its
                    > derivatives in darkness. This is the only documented case of vitamin
                    > D3 synthesis in the absence of UV-B.
                    >

                    So Bobs statement is false " vitamin D is not found in nature unless it

                    was developed through the irradiation of UVB originally."



                    --
                    Joe Heinen DC

                    "An invasion of armies can be resisted. But not an idea whose time has
                    come." Victor Hugo


                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    Carolina Pet Supply CRS Web Host
                    http://carolinapetsupply.com http://crswebhost.com/
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    http://www.russiantortoise.org
                    http://aboxturtle.com
                    http://africantortoise.com
                    http://maturtlerescue.org






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                  • Joe Heinen DC
                    A personal battle? Not on my side. The point of it is, bold statements are not science. They are opinions. Just like my opinion gathered from the article that
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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                      A personal battle? Not on my side.

                      The point of it is, bold statements are not science. They are opinions.

                      Just like my opinion gathered from the article that animals can obtain
                      D3 from plants and this may be why feeding a wide variety of food may
                      be a key in preventing MBD...especially if the the diet closely mimics
                      what they feed on in nature. And my opinion that There are sources of
                      vitamin D that don't require D3

                      As vitamin D and its analogs becomes more important in health
                      care...particularly in pain management and cancer treatment , I'm sure
                      more research will be funded and will show that perhaps my opinion has
                      merit.

                      Remember what was thought to be the gospel truth in science 10 years ago
                      has often been proven wrong. There are no absolutes in science.

                      And Bob you seem to have missed the point that the article shows that
                      there is at least 1 instance where UVB is not needed. I am sure there
                      are more...just my opinion.



                      bobmac@... wrote:

                      > This once wonderful thread has now become a personal battle of the wits
                      > and is ended simply because it's counter productive at this point.
                      >
                      > Fran, thanks for showing some common sense. I knew you would enjoy that
                      > paper. I also knew you would catch the D3 plant reference.
                      >
                      >
                      > Everybody please have a nice day!
                      >
                      >
                      > Best regards,
                      >
                      > BobMacCargar
                      > http://www.reptileuv.com
                      > Visit and learn;
                      > http://www.uvguide.co.uk
                      > http://www.reptileuvinfo.com
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UVB_Meter_Owners/
                      >
                      > If you do nothing else today, visit and join the INTERNATIONAL REPTILE
                      > CONSERVATION FOUNDATION
                      > at http://www.ircf.org/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Heinen DC
                      > Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 7:49 PM
                      > To: UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [UVB_Meter_Owners] Re: Lights and Aquatic Turtles
                      >
                      > lilacdawndragon wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Joe, no need to be sarcastic; I think BobMac's statement is not an
                      > > opinion.
                      >
                      > No sarcasm intended
                      >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Recently Curino et al. (1998) made the startling discovery that
                      > > Solanum glaucophyllum cells are able to synthesise vitamin D3 and its
                      > > derivatives in darkness. This is the only documented case of vitamin
                      > > D3 synthesis in the absence of UV-B.
                      > >
                      >
                      > So Bobs statement is false " vitamin D is not found in nature unless it
                      >
                      > was developed through the irradiation of UVB originally."
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > Joe Heinen DC
                      >
                      > "An invasion of armies can be resisted. But not an idea whose time has
                      > come." Victor Hugo
                      >
                      >
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                      --
                      Joe Heinen DC

                      "An invasion of armies can be resisted. But not an idea whose time has come." Victor Hugo


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                    • Bob MacCargar
                      ... Hello Rob, Thank you for the research and personally confirming the transmission of UVR through water. The study on trout I posted showed the same
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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                        --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, "Rob" <mantistyke@a...>
                        wrote:
                        >> There is an interesting article on UVB here:
                        > http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?
                        > fromPage=online&aid=222545
                        >
                        > You can view the full pdf text.
                        > Summary is UVB has been recorded up to 20m below the surface of the
                        > Antarctic sea.

                        Hello Rob,

                        Thank you for the research and personally confirming the transmission
                        of UVR through water. The study on trout I posted showed the same
                        distance. Pretty cool (in very un scientific terms)!

                        I didn't know you had submarine experience as well as the electronic
                        engineering you do. Very exciting!

                        Best,

                        BM
                      • Joe Heinen DC
                        ... Typo should be UVB instead of D3
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 19, 2005
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                          Joe Heinen DC wrote:

                          >
                          > And my opinion that There are sources of
                          > vitamin D that don't require D3
                          >
                          > A

                          Typo should be UVB instead of D3
                        • lilacdawndragon
                          Thank goodness I m not the only person who does typos and makes mistakes. :) Ok, that paper specifically says This is the only documented case of vitamin D3
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 20, 2005
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                            Thank goodness I'm not the only person who does typos and makes mistakes. :)

                            Ok, that paper specifically says
                            "This is the only documented case of vitamin D3 synthesis in the
                            absence of UV-B."
                            The plant has apparently evolved a method of poisoning animals which eat it, by creating toxic levels of a vitamin D analogue. Intriguing...but it is surely one of those "exceptions that proves the rule".

                            If, as is beautifully written in one of Holick's papers, namely-
                            Vitamin D: importance in the prevention of cancers, type 1 diabetes, heart disease, and osteoporosis
                            Michael F Holick American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 79, No. 3, 362-371, March 2004:

                            Quote:
                            ..some of the earliest phytoplankton and diatom life forms, including Emiliania huxlei, which has existed in the oceans for > 750 million years and which has used calcium for its structural support (it is a coccolithophore), produced ergosterol (provitamin D2)...

                            and...

                            Quote:
                            Ergosterol, previtamin D2, vitamin D2, and their photoproducts efficiently absorb the ultraviolet radiation that is damaging to DNA, RNA, and protein—ie, 230-330 nm. Thus, before the ozone layer (which now efficiently absorbs all ultraviolet radiation < 290 nm) evolved, the ergosterol-vitamin D2 system may have played a critical role in protecting organisms from the high-energy ultraviolet radiation that could have damaged their ultraviolet-sensitive proteins, RNA, and DNA.

                            end quote

                            ..then it seems likely that all vitamin D and its derivatives *initially* came from the action of sunlight on early biochemical systems, for a very good reason. What could be neater than a system in which the substance that protects, is generated by the very thing that it protects against?

                            Yes. I'm sure that there may be sources of vitamin D that have not required UVB for their original synthesis... but -in my opinion- these will be rare and probably insignificant in the scheme of things, simply because UVB is such an immensely ubiquitous and powerful resource to make vitamin D with.
                            If you live in a village surrounded by fresh clean springs, why go to the trouble of travelling to the sea, fetching back sea water and distilling it?

                            It is only since the invention of the glass window, about 600 years ago, that any species has become able to escape UVB. Now humans are so used to living in UVB-free enclosures that we think it is normal. Worse - we have convinced ourselves that countless species, including ourselves, can -or even, should - do without this natural component of light as long as we manufacture vitamin D in purified form, buy it, and stir it into our food. Go figure.

                            But back to the "bold statement". I realised on reflection, that I hadn't expressed what I meant to say at all well.
                            Please let me have one more go...

                            Even if we have to acknowledge that the bold statement "vitamin D is not found
                            in nature unless it was developed through the irradiation of UVB
                            originally." is not absolutely true...it *is* still true to say that for any given living organism, the probability that any vitamin D within its body was not originally developed through the irradiation of UVB is likely to be less than 0.001; ie. p < 0.001.

                            So you are both correct, really...

                            If anyone's interested in looking up research papers on the web, by the way, Joe's link to the PubMed Search Engine is indeed excellent:

                            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

                            but if, like me, you can't afford a subscription to a scientific library like that, then often, only the abstracts are available. A nice alternative Search Engine that sometimes comes up with other places to find that reference, that aren't locked behind a credit card, is:
                            http://scholar.google.com/

                            For more general info Wikipedia is often a gold mine, with scientists vying to contribute their "statements" and "opinions" lol...
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page.

                            Please keep debating, I think we are all gaining a lot from the challenge of keeping our dialogue sharp, I know I am.

                            Frances

                            --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, Joe Heinen DC <joeheinendc@b...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Joe Heinen DC wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > And my opinion that There are sources of
                            > > vitamin D that don't require D3
                            > >
                            > > A
                            >
                            > Typo should be UVB instead of D3
                            >




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Maria Pesce
                            I agree that we should keep this thread going. I have nothing to add, but have thoroughly enjoyed the debate. lilacdawndragon wrote:
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 20, 2005
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                              I agree that we should keep this thread going. I have nothing to add, but have
                              thoroughly enjoyed the debate.

                              lilacdawndragon <lilacdragon@...> wrote:

                              Thank goodness I'm not the only person who does typos and makes mistakes. :)

                              Ok, that paper specifically says
                              "This is the only documented case of vitamin D3 synthesis in the
                              absence of UV-B."
                              The plant has apparently evolved a method of poisoning animals which eat it, by creating toxic levels of a vitamin D analogue. Intriguing...but it is surely one of those "exceptions that proves the rule".

                              If, as is beautifully written in one of Holick's papers, namely-
                              Vitamin D: importance in the prevention of cancers, type 1 diabetes, heart disease, and osteoporosis
                              Michael F Holick American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 79, No. 3, 362-371, March 2004:

                              Quote:
                              ..some of the earliest phytoplankton and diatom life forms, including Emiliania huxlei, which has existed in the oceans for > 750 million years and which has used calcium for its structural support (it is a coccolithophore), produced ergosterol (provitamin D2)...

                              and...

                              Quote:
                              Ergosterol, previtamin D2, vitamin D2, and their photoproducts efficiently absorb the ultraviolet radiation that is damaging to DNA, RNA, and protein—ie, 230-330 nm. Thus, before the ozone layer (which now efficiently absorbs all ultraviolet radiation < 290 nm) evolved, the ergosterol-vitamin D2 system may have played a critical role in protecting organisms from the high-energy ultraviolet radiation that could have damaged their ultraviolet-sensitive proteins, RNA, and DNA.

                              end quote

                              ..then it seems likely that all vitamin D and its derivatives *initially* came from the action of sunlight on early biochemical systems, for a very good reason. What could be neater than a system in which the substance that protects, is generated by the very thing that it protects against?

                              Yes. I'm sure that there may be sources of vitamin D that have not required UVB for their original synthesis... but -in my opinion- these will be rare and probably insignificant in the scheme of things, simply because UVB is such an immensely ubiquitous and powerful resource to make vitamin D with.
                              If you live in a village surrounded by fresh clean springs, why go to the trouble of travelling to the sea, fetching back sea water and distilling it?

                              It is only since the invention of the glass window, about 600 years ago, that any species has become able to escape UVB. Now humans are so used to living in UVB-free enclosures that we think it is normal. Worse - we have convinced ourselves that countless species, including ourselves, can -or even, should - do without this natural component of light as long as we manufacture vitamin D in purified form, buy it, and stir it into our food. Go figure.

                              But back to the "bold statement". I realised on reflection, that I hadn't expressed what I meant to say at all well.
                              Please let me have one more go...

                              Even if we have to acknowledge that the bold statement "vitamin D is not found
                              in nature unless it was developed through the irradiation of UVB
                              originally." is not absolutely true...it *is* still true to say that for any given living organism, the probability that any vitamin D within its body was not originally developed through the irradiation of UVB is likely to be less than 0.001; ie. p < 0.001.

                              So you are both correct, really...

                              If anyone's interested in looking up research papers on the web, by the way, Joe's link to the PubMed Search Engine is indeed excellent:

                              http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

                              but if, like me, you can't afford a subscription to a scientific library like that, then often, only the abstracts are available. A nice alternative Search Engine that sometimes comes up with other places to find that reference, that aren't locked behind a credit card, is:
                              http://scholar.google.com/

                              For more general info Wikipedia is often a gold mine, with scientists vying to contribute their "statements" and "opinions" lol...
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page.

                              Please keep debating, I think we are all gaining a lot from the challenge of keeping our dialogue sharp, I know I am.

                              Frances

                              --- In UVB_Meter_Owners@yahoogroups.com, Joe Heinen DC <joeheinendc@b...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Joe Heinen DC wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > And my opinion that There are sources of
                              > > vitamin D that don't require D3
                              > >
                              > > A
                              >
                              > Typo should be UVB instead of D3
                              >




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