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RE: [USAICO] More saturation points

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  • Alan Atwood
    We ve had that shitstorm here in NE too; the officials try to enforce 80% at a large race and the shit hit the fan; the next big event no one was pulled. I ve
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 3, 2010
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      We've had that shitstorm here in NE too; the officials try to enforce 80% at a large race and the shit hit the fan; the next big event no one was pulled.

      I've always taken the initiative to make sure my course was long enough so that riders would have less of a chance of getting lapped while keeping all the technical aspects that riders love from cyclocross.  And the course would be wide enough so that lapped riders could get out of the way safely with little to no hindrance of the leader(s). 

      With that said, I really try to get the best officials I can, so they can keep up with riders on different laps.  We're fortunate here in New England that we have a good core group of officials who not only work the big races but help mentor the up-in-coming officials so they can develop and be able to tackle the challenges that come with a large race.  But if that was not the case, I would not hesitate to budget extra funds to bring in top level scorers from out of the area so we can keep lapped riders in and be able to keep track of them without botching the results 3 or 4 times.

      One more thing to think of here:  While I'm not a proponent of chip timing, they do have their place.  They can do a very good job of keeping track of riders and allow the officials to concentrate on picking finishes when they have to (which a chip cannot do).  While New England doesn't use any chip timing, I know other areas of the country do and that might be a good avenue to help with allowing riders to participate more and keep them happy. 

      Thanks,
      Alan Atwood
      Green Mountain Cyclocross Weekend


      To: USAICO@yahoogroups.com
      From: mikeh@...
      Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:54:08 -0400
      Subject: Re: [USAICO] More saturation points

       
      I have to agree with several of Adam's points on saturation and "soft".  Our geography (unless California decides to drop off at some point) has a long way to before we hit a saturation point. The people across the big pond are relatively close to some iteration of a C* event each weekend vs Joe Midwest or Jane Down South in the U.S, etc. And as far as being "soft" the UCI officials should be making sure that these events are not "too soft" by enforcing the rules.

      Our series here in Ohio and Kentucky has benefited from having 5 UCI events as part of the series. The series promoters, including those who don't have a UCI rank are held to certain venue/event qualifications which prevents low quality events from being part of the  series.  By low quality I mean events that barely meet club level standards. When Mitch Graham (series director) decided to move in this direction the marginal event promoters opted out and the series became better for everybody that competes. Some of those who opted out now see the value and are stepping up their game with hopes to become a part of the series again.  

      My gripe is with scoring. And before anyone gets their shorts all bunched up, I am an official, been one for over 30 years and yes I have been in the box at more than one CX event. From the promoter's side cross is more expensive to put on than most road races with all the tape, stakes, etc. 150 Cat 4's paying $25.00 a pop goes a long way toward paying the expenses of the event. While they may not be the main show, they are paying customers and what they are paying essentially for is to race for 30 minutes and get a place they can claim or brag on as their own. Because the fields have become so large, scoring has become more of a challenge. The "fix" was to remove lapped riders from the field and give them a place, however in large fields if you are unlucky enough to get 80 as your starting position on the grid, let's face it you are a "contributor", especially if you get caught on a ride up that becomes a run up when you get there. Still you paid to race and getting yanked after 2 laps makes for a very bad day for the customer.  

      I like to see some discussion on keeping the paying customers happy.

      Michael Hewitt

      Handle every stressful situation like a dog... 

      Pee on it and walk away.

      m 502-930-1036
      SKYPE ME: mike2wheelsports

      Please consider the environment before printing this email.
      On Nov 3, 2010, at 9:16 AM, Adam Myerson wrote:

       
      To further make my point, take a look at last weekend's events.

      Lots of races, lots of choices, lots of points given out. Surely there were some "soft" races in there and not all points were equally earned. Should there only have been races in Belgium last weekend, since that was where the best riders were? Or is it ok that each geographical region (not nation, but region) had a UCI event?

      I hope the obvious answer by now is "of course not," unless you think the US riders should have to get on a plane every Friday and Monday in order to race bicycles.

      Internationales Radquer Steinmaur October 31, 2010, Steinmaur, SUI, Cyclo-cross - C2
      TOI TOI Cup #4 October 30, 2010, Lostice, CZE, Cyclo-cross - C2
      Cyclo-cross de Karrantza October 31, 2010, Karrantza, Spain, Cyclo-cross - C2
      Saverne - 1ère manche du Challenge La France Cycliste de Cyclo-cross October 31, 2010, Alsace, FRA, Cyclo-cross - C2
      British National Trophy Round 2 October 31, 2010, Ipswich, GBR, Cyclo-cross - C2
      Trofeo Ayuntamiento de Muskiz November 1, 2010, Muskiz, Spain, Cyclo-cross - C2
      Cyclo-cross International de Marle November 1, 2010, Marle, FRA, Cyclo-cross - C2
      Beacon Cross October 30, 2010, Bridgeton, NJ, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
      Colorado Cyclo-cross Classic October 30, 2010, Boulder, Colorado, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
      HPCX October 31, 2010, Jamesburg, New Jersey, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
      Boulder Cup Cyclo-cross October 31, 2010, Boulder, Colorado, USA, Cyclo-cross - C1
      Superprestige Zonhoven October 31, 2010, Zonhoven, BEL, Cyclo-cross - C1
      GVA Trofee - Koppenbergcross November 1, 2010, Melden - Oudenaarde, BEL, Cyclo-cross - C1

      Adam
      --
      Adam F. Myerson
      President, Cycle-Smart, Inc.: Solutions for Cycling
      Organizer, Cycle-Smart International Cyclo-Cross
      President, Verge New England Championship Cyclo-Cross Series
      Captain, Team Mountain Khakis

      32 Ditson St., #5
      Dorchester, MA 02122
      (413) 204-3202 Mobile
      (512) 681-7043 Fax
      adam@...
      http://cycle-smart.com
      http://twitter.com/adammyerson
      http://www.facebook.com/adammyerson
      http://teammountainkhakis.com/



      Michael Hewitt
      mikeh@...

      "To be Jedi is to face the truth, and choose. Give off light, or darkness...Be a candle, or the night...but choose!"
      -Yoda

      m 502-930-1036
      SKYPE ME: mike2wheelsports

      Please consider the environment before printing this email.




    • Mitch Graham
      Do juniors need an international license to compete in Junior UCI CX events, or is their standard USAC license sufficient? Mitch Graham - Bio Wheels Workshop
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 3, 2010
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        Do juniors need an international license to compete in Junior UCI CX events, or is their standard USAC license sufficient?
         

        Mitch Graham - Bio Wheels Workshop

        (513) 861-2453 Work

        (513) 476-6805 Mobile

        6810 Miami Ave

        Cincinnati, Ohio

        45243


      • Joan Hanscom
        They have always been allowed to race our uci races om usac license (per the uci). The one stipulation being that worlds team selection requires uci license.
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 3, 2010
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          They have always been allowed to race our uci races om usac license (per the uci). The one stipulation being that worlds team selection requires uci license.

          Joan

          Mitch Graham <mitch_biowheels@...> wrote:

          >Do juniors need an international license to compete in Junior UCI CX events, or
          >is their standard USAC license sufficient?
          >
          >
          >Mitch Graham - Bio Wheels Workshop
          >(513) 861-2453 Work
          >(513) 476-6805 Mobile
          >6810 Miami Ave
          >Cincinnati, Ohio
          >45243
          >
          >
          >
        • Michael Hewitt
          80% rule is a headache when used as the hammer of God . UCI Elites...yes. Joe and Jane Lunchbox...no We ve used chips in our series 4 times this year with
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 3, 2010
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            80% rule is a headache when used as the "hammer of God". UCI Elites...yes. Joe and Jane Lunchbox...no We've used chips in our series 4 times this year with excellent results, no riders were pulled even in a 180 rider 2/3 field. Results were posted quickly and Joe and Jane went home happy campers. They have their advantages, however promoters can't think that they are a substitute for a full complement of officials. Chips need to be regarded as a tool to achieve accurate results.  I own a MyLaps system which does a great job except you need chip wranglers to get them back at the end of each race. When I'm asked to work a CX  event I always ask how many officials will be there. I will not do a CX event that has less than 4 officials, when working with race my sheets go to the Chief Judge first for sign off, not to posting.

            The other company I work with uses RFID chips and they upside is that they are throw aways after the race, no chip wrangling required. Excellent results (linked into their system with my IPad and watched the race progress in registration) but they have the same philosophy. Must have a full complement of officials and results are given to the Chief Judge for sign off. One plus is that their system flags riders in the 80% hole if the officials want to be Captain Hook. 

            I think chips have their place in CX, especially when you have huge multiple category/ multiple talented fields (ie. Cat 4, Cat 4 35+, Cat 4 45+.)  But you still need eyes watching.

            Michael Hewitt
            mikeh@...

            "To the Force, look for guidance. Accept what fate has placed before us."
            -Yoda

            m 502-930-1036
            SKYPE ME: mike2wheelsports

            Please consider the environment before printing this email.



            On Nov 3, 2010, at 12:16 PM, Alan Atwood wrote:

             

            We've had that shitstorm here in NE too; the officials try to enforce 80% at a large race and the shit hit the fan; the next big event no one was pulled.

            I've always taken the initiative to make sure my course was long enough so that riders would have less of a chance of getting lapped while keeping all the technical aspects that riders love from cyclocross.  And the course would be wide enough so that lapped riders could get out of the way safely with little to no hindrance of the leader(s). 

            With that said, I really try to get the best officials I can, so they can keep up with riders on different laps.  We're fortunate here in New England that we have a good core group of officials who not only work the big races but help mentor the up-in-coming officials so they can develop and be able to tackle the challenges that come with a large race.  But if that was not the case, I would not hesitate to budget extra funds to bring in top level scorers from out of the area so we can keep lapped riders in and be able to keep track of them without botching the results 3 or 4 times.

            One more thing to think of here:  While I'm not a proponent of chip timing, they do have their place.  They can do a very good job of keeping track of riders and allow the officials to concentrate on picking finishes when they have to (which a chip cannot do).  While New England doesn't use any chip timing, I know other areas of the country do and that might be a good avenue to help with allowing riders to participate more and keep them happy. 

            Thanks,
            Alan Atwood
            Green Mountain Cyclocross Weekend


            To: USAICO@yahoogroups.com
            From: mikeh@...
            Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:54:08 -0400
            Subject: Re: [USAICO] More saturation points

             
            I have to agree with several of Adam's points on saturation and "soft".  Our geography (unless California decides to drop off at some point) has a long way to before we hit a saturation point. The people across the big pond are relatively close to some iteration of a C* event each weekend vs Joe Midwest or Jane Down South in the U.S, etc. And as far as being "soft" the UCI officials should be making sure that these events are not "too soft" by enforcing the rules.

            Our series here in Ohio and Kentucky has benefited from having 5 UCI events as part of the series. The series promoters, including those who don't have a UCI rank are held to certain venue/event qualifications which prevents low quality events from being part of the  series.  By low quality I mean events that barely meet club level standards. When Mitch Graham (series director) decided to move in this direction the marginal event promoters opted out and the series became better for everybody that competes. Some of those who opted out now see the value and are stepping up their game with hopes to become a part of the series again.  

            My gripe is with scoring. And before anyone gets their shorts all bunched up, I am an official, been one for over 30 years and yes I have been in the box at more than one CX event. From the promoter's side cross is more expensive to put on than most road races with all the tape, stakes, etc. 150 Cat 4's paying $25.00 a pop goes a long way toward paying the expenses of the event. While they may not be the main show, they are paying customers and what they are paying essentially for is to race for 30 minutes and get a place they can claim or brag on as their own. Because the fields have become so large, scoring has become more of a challenge. The "fix" was to remove lapped riders from the field and give them a place, however in large fields if you are unlucky enough to get 80 as your starting position on the grid, let's face it you are a "contributor", especially if you get caught on a ride up that becomes a run up when you get there. Still you paid to race and getting yanked after 2 laps makes for a very bad day for the customer.  

            I like to see some discussion on keeping the paying customers happy.

            Michael Hewitt

            Handle every stressful situation like a dog... 

            Pee on it and walk away.

            m 502-930-1036
            SKYPE ME: mike2wheelsports

            Please consider the environment before printing this email.
            On Nov 3, 2010, at 9:16 AM, Adam Myerson wrote:

             
            To further make my point, take a look at last weekend's events.

            Lots of races, lots of choices, lots of points given out. Surely there were some "soft" races in there and not all points were equally earned. Should there only have been races in Belgium last weekend, since that was where the best riders were? Or is it ok that each geographical region (not nation, but region) had a UCI event?

            I hope the obvious answer by now is "of course not," unless you think the US riders should have to get on a plane every Friday and Monday in order to race bicycles.

            Internationales Radquer Steinmaur October 31, 2010, Steinmaur, SUI, Cyclo-cross - C2
            TOI TOI Cup #4 October 30, 2010, Lostice, CZE, Cyclo-cross - C2
            Cyclo-cross de Karrantza October 31, 2010, Karrantza, Spain, Cyclo-cross - C2
            Saverne - 1ère manche du Challenge La France Cycliste de Cyclo-cross October 31, 2010, Alsace, FRA, Cyclo-cross - C2
            British National Trophy Round 2 October 31, 2010, Ipswich, GBR, Cyclo-cross - C2
            Trofeo Ayuntamiento de Muskiz November 1, 2010, Muskiz, Spain, Cyclo-cross - C2
            Cyclo-cross International de Marle November 1, 2010, Marle, FRA, Cyclo-cross - C2
            Beacon Cross October 30, 2010, Bridgeton, NJ, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
            Colorado Cyclo-cross Classic October 30, 2010, Boulder, Colorado, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
            HPCX October 31, 2010, Jamesburg, New Jersey, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
            Boulder Cup Cyclo-cross October 31, 2010, Boulder, Colorado, USA, Cyclo-cross - C1
            Superprestige Zonhoven October 31, 2010, Zonhoven, BEL, Cyclo-cross - C1
            GVA Trofee - Koppenbergcross November 1, 2010, Melden - Oudenaarde, BEL, Cyclo-cross - C1

            Adam
            --
            Adam F. Myerson
            President, Cycle-Smart, Inc.: Solutions for Cycling
            Organizer, Cycle-Smart International Cyclo-Cross
            President, Verge New England Championship Cyclo-Cross Series
            Captain, Team Mountain Khakis

            32 Ditson St., #5
            Dorchester, MA 02122
            (413) 204-3202 Mobile
            (512) 681-7043 Fax
            adam@...
            http://cycle-smart.com
            http://twitter.com/adammyerson
            http://www.facebook.com/adammyerson
            http://teammountainkhakis.com/



            Michael Hewitt
            mikeh@...

            "To be Jedi is to face the truth, and choose. Give off light, or darkness...Be a candle, or the night...but choose!"
            -Yoda

            m 502-930-1036
            SKYPE ME: mike2wheelsports

            Please consider the environment before printing this email.







          • Dwayne Letterman
            I ll chime in hear from the south. First on saturation. Cross in the southeast: TN, SC, GA, etc, is relatively new (NC has been doing CX for 13 years), and
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 3, 2010
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              I'll chime in hear from the south. First on saturation. Cross in the southeast: TN, SC, GA, etc, is relatively new (NC has been doing CX for 13 years), and there is plenty of room to grow at the USAC level, as well as  the UCI level. My series, Mud, Sweat and Gears, in Tennessee, is in it's seventh season and our race totals for all categories is on average 130 unique individuals. When we started in 2004 we had only 40 total per race. Most other races in Tennessee are only now starting and are only seeing entries in the 50-70 range per day. The level of production for most Tennessee races is not there yet. Many races only stake and tape the turns and using survey flags in the straights. A lot of the courses don't meet the standards for start/finish and pits. As for UCI races, the only one in the south east has been Tim Hopkin's two day event in November in Hendersonville, NC. Those races have only been going on, I believe, for 5 years. My race, which will be held on January 15th in Kingsport, TN, is only the second UCI CX race that I know of  ever in the south. So, I think there is plenty of room for growth for UCI events here, especially further south. I'm actually a little worried about our event. Even though I'm in the south, we are located in the valley of the Appalachian Mountains and winter weather is very unpredictable, ask Adam about the Tennessee CX Championship last year. The week prior we did a 50 mile road ride through the mountains with temps in the 50's. One week later we were racing in 5 inches of snow! We made a $16.00 profit on two days of racing.

              As for large fields, we don't have that problem yet. Officials should be able to score fields of up to 75 riders without pulling lapped riders, we do it all the time in crits. Our largest field is usually the Cat 4's, which has on average 40-50 riders in it. As you know, the 4's are a diverse group, ranging from beginners to experienced racers. As a result, we end up with a lot of lapped riders, but we still score everyone and let them finish the race. I had the unfortunate experience with the "80%" rule in Louisville.  Lining up on the back row both days at USGP in the masters field, I was pulled after 3 laps on Saturday and 4 on Sunday. I was also scored as a DNF on Saturday and scored 3 laps down on Sunday, when I should have been down 2. The field size was only in the 50's, no one should have been pulled either day. In Elite races, when a lot of money is at stake, I can see a little more the logic of pulling lapped riders. Still, I think it should be the exception, rather than the rule.

              Dwayne

              On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Alan Atwood <Alan_Atwood@...> wrote:
               

              We've had that shitstorm here in NE too; the officials try to enforce 80% at a large race and the shit hit the fan; the next big event no one was pulled.

              I've always taken the initiative to make sure my course was long enough so that riders would have less of a chance of getting lapped while keeping all the technical aspects that riders love from cyclocross.  And the course would be wide enough so that lapped riders could get out of the way safely with little to no hindrance of the leader(s). 

              With that said, I really try to get the best officials I can, so they can keep up with riders on different laps.  We're fortunate here in New England that we have a good core group of officials who not only work the big races but help mentor the up-in-coming officials so they can develop and be able to tackle the challenges that come with a large race.  But if that was not the case, I would not hesitate to budget extra funds to bring in top level scorers from out of the area so we can keep lapped riders in and be able to keep track of them without botching the results 3 or 4 times.

              One more thing to think of here:  While I'm not a proponent of chip timing, they do have their place.  They can do a very good job of keeping track of riders and allow the officials to concentrate on picking finishes when they have to (which a chip cannot do).  While New England doesn't use any chip timing, I know other areas of the country do and that might be a good avenue to help with allowing riders to participate more and keep them happy. 

              Thanks,
              Alan Atwood
              Green Mountain Cyclocross Weekend


              To: USAICO@yahoogroups.com
              From: mikeh@...
              Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 11:54:08 -0400
              Subject: Re: [USAICO] More saturation points


               
              I have to agree with several of Adam's points on saturation and "soft".  Our geography (unless California decides to drop off at some point) has a long way to before we hit a saturation point. The people across the big pond are relatively close to some iteration of a C* event each weekend vs Joe Midwest or Jane Down South in the U.S, etc. And as far as being "soft" the UCI officials should be making sure that these events are not "too soft" by enforcing the rules.

              Our series here in Ohio and Kentucky has benefited from having 5 UCI events as part of the series. The series promoters, including those who don't have a UCI rank are held to certain venue/event qualifications which prevents low quality events from being part of the  series.  By low quality I mean events that barely meet club level standards. When Mitch Graham (series director) decided to move in this direction the marginal event promoters opted out and the series became better for everybody that competes. Some of those who opted out now see the value and are stepping up their game with hopes to become a part of the series again.  

              My gripe is with scoring. And before anyone gets their shorts all bunched up, I am an official, been one for over 30 years and yes I have been in the box at more than one CX event. From the promoter's side cross is more expensive to put on than most road races with all the tape, stakes, etc. 150 Cat 4's paying $25.00 a pop goes a long way toward paying the expenses of the event. While they may not be the main show, they are paying customers and what they are paying essentially for is to race for 30 minutes and get a place they can claim or brag on as their own. Because the fields have become so large, scoring has become more of a challenge. The "fix" was to remove lapped riders from the field and give them a place, however in large fields if you are unlucky enough to get 80 as your starting position on the grid, let's face it you are a "contributor", especially if you get caught on a ride up that becomes a run up when you get there. Still you paid to race and getting yanked after 2 laps makes for a very bad day for the customer.  

              I like to see some discussion on keeping the paying customers happy.

              Michael Hewitt

              Handle every stressful situation like a dog... 

              Pee on it and walk away.

              m 502-930-1036
              SKYPE ME: mike2wheelsports

              Please consider the environment before printing this email.
              On Nov 3, 2010, at 9:16 AM, Adam Myerson wrote:

               
              To further make my point, take a look at last weekend's events.

              Lots of races, lots of choices, lots of points given out. Surely there were some "soft" races in there and not all points were equally earned. Should there only have been races in Belgium last weekend, since that was where the best riders were? Or is it ok that each geographical region (not nation, but region) had a UCI event?

              I hope the obvious answer by now is "of course not," unless you think the US riders should have to get on a plane every Friday and Monday in order to race bicycles.

              Internationales Radquer Steinmaur October 31, 2010, Steinmaur, SUI, Cyclo-cross - C2
              TOI TOI Cup #4 October 30, 2010, Lostice, CZE, Cyclo-cross - C2
              Cyclo-cross de Karrantza October 31, 2010, Karrantza, Spain, Cyclo-cross - C2
              Saverne - 1ère manche du Challenge La France Cycliste de Cyclo-cross October 31, 2010, Alsace, FRA, Cyclo-cross - C2
              British National Trophy Round 2 October 31, 2010, Ipswich, GBR, Cyclo-cross - C2
              Trofeo Ayuntamiento de Muskiz November 1, 2010, Muskiz, Spain, Cyclo-cross - C2
              Cyclo-cross International de Marle November 1, 2010, Marle, FRA, Cyclo-cross - C2
              Beacon Cross October 30, 2010, Bridgeton, NJ, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
              Colorado Cyclo-cross Classic October 30, 2010, Boulder, Colorado, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
              HPCX October 31, 2010, Jamesburg, New Jersey, USA, Cyclo-cross - C2
              Boulder Cup Cyclo-cross October 31, 2010, Boulder, Colorado, USA, Cyclo-cross - C1
              Superprestige Zonhoven October 31, 2010, Zonhoven, BEL, Cyclo-cross - C1
              GVA Trofee - Koppenbergcross November 1, 2010, Melden - Oudenaarde, BEL, Cyclo-cross - C1

              Adam
              --
              Adam F. Myerson
              President, Cycle-Smart, Inc.: Solutions for Cycling
              Organizer, Cycle-Smart International Cyclo-Cross
              President, Verge New England Championship Cyclo-Cross Series
              Captain, Team Mountain Khakis

              32 Ditson St., #5
              Dorchester, MA 02122
              (413) 204-3202 Mobile
              (512) 681-7043 Fax
              adam@...
              http://cycle-smart.com
              http://twitter.com/adammyerson
              http://www.facebook.com/adammyerson
              http://teammountainkhakis.com/



              Michael Hewitt
              mikeh@...

              "To be Jedi is to face the truth, and choose. Give off light, or darkness...Be a candle, or the night...but choose!"
              -Yoda

              m 502-930-1036
              SKYPE ME: mike2wheelsports

              Please consider the environment before printing this email.







              --
              Tri Cities Road Club:
              http://www.tricitiesroadclub.org
              Mud, Sweat and Gears Cyclo-cross:
              http://www.msgcross.com
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