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RE: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"

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  • Tom McDaniel
    Mitch When they refined and clarified the rules for using Planks as barriers they also rewrote 5.1.023. 5.1.023 Is a very flexible rule and leaves lots of room
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 21, 2004
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      Mitch

      When they refined and clarified the rules for using Planks as barriers they
      also rewrote 5.1.023.

      5.1.023 Is a very flexible rule and leaves lots of room to put in obstacles
      to force riders off their bike.

      At Granogue I am likely to add a few 4" to 6" logs here and there in a way
      "which is likely to require riders to dismount".

      I agree with Adam that American and Canadian women and Jrs can go over plank
      barriers.

      Tom McDaniel
      Wooden Wheels Racing
      Granogue Cyclo-Cross


      5.1.023
      The course may include no more than six obstacles. Obstacle shall mean any
      part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.
      The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres. The total length of
      obstacles
      may not exceed 10% of the course.
      Descents of flights of steps may not be used.
      (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).
      ========================================================
      Rule 5.1.024
      "The course may include a single section of planks. This obstacle
      must consist of two planks placed 4m apart....In races for Junior Men
      and Women, it is recommended that a parallel course avoiding this
      obstacle should be used."

      I'm curious as to the various promoters' philosophies on this rule,
      and the different ways of twisting and interpreting it's use. The
      rule speaks of a "single section of 2 planks on course," but I've
      heard recently that the UCI commmissaire on hand has some latitude on
      allowing for more than 1 section of artificial dismounts if the
      course might be "enhanced" by more than one set (i.e. course might
      suck with only one set). Personally, I find the most interesting and
      challenging sections of various courses to be the dismount areas, and
      would hate to see these marginalized. Those riders that hate getting
      off their bikes obviously like this rule and have no problem quoting
      it to me so that I'm aware of it for our UCI race. What are my
      choices? What about this parallel course thing? Is one of these a
      recommendation and one of them a rule? Are they both recommendations
      and guidelines - and the promoter is left to their best judgement on
      what would produce a quality course?

      Mitch Graham
      Cincinnati





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    • Adam Hodges Myerson
      But only if they have the right licenses... I think that was another e-mail list, Tom.
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 21, 2004
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        But only if they have the right licenses...

        I think that was another e-mail list, Tom.

        on 9/21/04 8:00 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:

        > I agree with Adam that American and Canadian women and Jrs can go over plank
        > barriers.
      • Adam Hodges Myerson
        Tom, The only change I saw here is that now you can have 6 obstacles rather than 4 from previous years. How do you interpret that to mean adding logs? Why
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 21, 2004
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          Tom,

          The only change I saw here is that now you can have 6 obstacles rather than
          4 from previous years.

          How do you interpret that to mean adding logs? Why wouldn't a log be an
          artificial barrier, if it wasn't already part of the landscape?

          I think if you actually built a set of stairs (even log stairs) that were
          "part of the landscape" you'd be be ok. But if you just dropped a few logs
          around the course?

          Rob from Tailwind had asked me the same question so I'm glad we're talking
          about it.

          Adam


          on 9/21/04 8:00 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:

          > 5.1.023 Is a very flexible rule and leaves lots of room to put in obstacles
          > to force riders off their bike.
          >
          > At Granogue I am likely to add a few 4" to 6" logs here and there in a way
          > "which is likely to require riders to dismount".
          >
          > I agree with Adam that American and Canadian women and Jrs can go over plank
          > barriers.
          >
          > Tom McDaniel
          > Wooden Wheels Racing
          > Granogue Cyclo-Cross
          >
          >
          > 5.1.023
          > The course may include no more than six obstacles. Obstacle shall mean any
          > part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.
          > The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres. The total length of
          > obstacles
          > may not exceed 10% of the course.
          > Descents of flights of steps may not be used.
          > (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).
        • myles romanow
          We have on our course currently 4 fallen trees, that have had extraneous boughs removed to render them in a log like fashion. One had to be removed as it was
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 21, 2004
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            We have on our course currently 4 fallen trees, that
            have had extraneous boughs removed to render them in a
            log like fashion. One had to be removed as it was on
            a small downhill, and thus deemed non uci compliant.
            One is currently mobile, and will be removed for the
            beginners, and replaced for the rest of the fields.
            The other 2 are remaining for all fields. During set
            up, I can bunny hop them at will, which, in my
            humblest of interpretations as a lowly cat 4 official,
            "obliges but does not require" a rider to dismount. We
            also have a plank section, of uci mandated barriers.
            My BIG question, in all seriousness, is

            Are natural obstacles governed by any height/size
            restrictions other than the boundaries of good common
            sense?????

            myles
            Myles



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          • Adam Hodges Myerson
            If it s moveable, how is it not artificial? Because it s a tree? I don t know who your official is, but you ll never get away with it! Guys, the point is that
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 21, 2004
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              If it's moveable, how is it not artificial? Because it's a tree?

              I don't know who your official is, but you'll never get away with it!

              Guys, the point is that it has to be a permanent part of the landscape to be
              a natural obstacle. Strewn logs and downed trees ain't it.

              Adam


              on 9/21/04 10:28 PM, myles romanow at hamptonvelo@... wrote:

              > We have on our course currently 4 fallen trees, that
              > have had extraneous boughs removed to render them in a
              > log like fashion. One had to be removed as it was on
              > a small downhill, and thus deemed non uci compliant.
              > One is currently mobile, and will be removed for the
              > beginners, and replaced for the rest of the fields.
              > The other 2 are remaining for all fields. During set
              > up, I can bunny hop them at will, which, in my
              > humblest of interpretations as a lowly cat 4 official,
              > "obliges but does not require" a rider to dismount. We
              > also have a plank section, of uci mandated barriers.
              > My BIG question, in all seriousness, is
              >
              > Are natural obstacles governed by any height/size
              > restrictions other than the boundaries of good common
              > sense?????
              >
              > myles
              > Myles
              >
              >
              >
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            • Tom McDaniel
              Adam I just read the new rules with out trying to figure out their intent. We had this messed up text From last years 5.1.023 the course can comprise on
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 21, 2004
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                Adam

                 

                I just read the new rules with out trying to figure out their intent.

                 

                We had this messed up text From last years 5.1.023  "the course can comprise on artificial obstacle..... blah blah" is gone.

                 

                So….. The rule reads:

                 

                5.1.023

                The course may include no more than six obstacles.

                Obstacle shall mean any part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.

                The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres.

                The total length of obstacles may not exceed 10% of the course.

                 

                Descents of flights of steps may not be used.

                (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).

                10185-05 cyclo-E 17/08/04 11:00

                 

                So the current Definition of an obstacle = “any part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount”

                 

                Now if you use planks for an obstacles then you consult 5.1.024 Which by my reading applies only to plank barriers.

                 

                Other parts of the current rules prohibit steel and barb wire and anything unsafe. Other then that you can play with hills, sand, logs, roots, curbs etc etc.

                 

                Just for fun check the date of your “new rules” mine were updated Aug 17th 2004.

                 

                Tom McD

                WWR

                GCX

                 

                 

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Adam Hodges Myerson [mailto:adam@...]
                Sent:
                Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:36 PM
                To: USAICO
                Subject: Re: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"

                 

                 

                Tom,

                 

                The only change I saw here is that now you can have 6 obstacles rather than

                4 from previous years.

                 

                How do you interpret that to mean adding logs? Why wouldn't a log be an

                artificial barrier, if it wasn't already part of the landscape?

                 

                I think if you actually built a set of stairs (even log stairs) that were

                "part of the landscape" you'd be be ok. But if you just dropped a few logs

                around the course?

                 

                Rob from Tailwind had asked me the same question so I'm glad we're talking

                about it.

                 

                Adam

                 

                 

                on 9/21/04 8:00 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:

                 

                > 5.1.023 Is a very flexible rule and leaves lots of room to put in obstacles

                > to force riders off their bike.

                >

                > At Granogue I am likely to add a few 4" to 6" logs here and there in a way

                > "which is likely to require riders to dismount".

                >

                > I agree with Adam that American and Canadian women and Jrs can go over plank

                > barriers.

                >

                > Tom McDaniel

                > Wooden Wheels Racing

                > Granogue Cyclo-Cross

                >

                >

                > 5.1.023

                > The course may include no more than six obstacles. Obstacle shall mean any

                > part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.

                > The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres. The total length of

                > obstacles

                > may not exceed 10% of the course.

                > Descents of flights of steps may not be used.

                > (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).

                 

                 

                 

                 

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              • Tom McDaniel
                Oh in addition to all of that they used logs at CX worlds in France last year. JD sent me proof on DVD. They spaced them about 2m apart..8 or ten 4 to 6
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 21, 2004
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                  Oh in addition to all of that they used logs at CX worlds in France last year.  JD sent me proof on DVD.

                   

                  They spaced them about 2m apart….8 or ten 4” to 6” logs about 20 Meters of running.  It was inherently rabbit unfriendly.

                   

                  Personally I like one obstacle that is hop friendly on a course… but set up so it doesn’t give a huge advantage.  Like maybe you could pick up one bike length on  a good runner.

                   

                   

                  Tom

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Tom McDaniel [mailto:ctmcdaniel@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:13 PM
                  To: USAICO@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"

                   

                  Adam

                   

                  I just read the new rules with out trying to figure out their intent.

                   

                  We had this messed up text From last years 5.1.023  "the course can comprise on artificial obstacle..... blah blah" is gone.

                   

                  So….. The rule reads:

                   

                  5.1.023

                  The course may include no more than six obstacles.

                  Obstacle shall mean any part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.

                  The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres.

                  The total length of obstacles may not exceed 10% of the course.

                   

                  Descents of flights of steps may not be used.

                  (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).

                  10185-05 cyclo-E 17/08/04 11:00

                   

                  So the current Definition of an obstacle = “any part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount”

                   

                  Now if you use planks for an obstacles then you consult 5.1.024 Which by my reading applies only to plank barriers.

                   

                  Other parts of the current rules prohibit steel and barb wire and anything unsafe. Other then that you can play with hills, sand, logs, roots, curbs etc etc.

                   

                  Just for fun check the date of your “new rules” mine were updated Aug 17th 2004.

                   

                  Tom McD

                  WWR

                  GCX

                   

                   

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Adam Hodges Myerson [mailto:adam@...]
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:36 PM
                  To: USAICO
                  Subject: Re: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"

                   

                   

                  Tom,

                   

                  The only change I saw here is that now you can have 6 obstacles rather than

                  4 from previous years.

                   

                  How do you interpret that to mean adding logs? Why wouldn't a log be an

                  artificial barrier, if it wasn't already part of the landscape?

                   

                  I think if you actually built a set of stairs (even log stairs) that were

                  "part of the landscape" you'd be be ok. But if you just dropped a few logs

                  around the course?

                   

                  Rob from Tailwind had asked me the same question so I'm glad we're talking

                  about it.

                   

                  Adam

                   

                   

                  on 9/21/04 8:00 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:

                   

                  > 5.1.023 Is a very flexible rule and leaves lots of room to put in obstacles

                  > to force riders off their bike.

                  >

                  > At Granogue I am likely to add a few 4" to 6" logs here and there in a way

                  > "which is likely to require riders to dismount".

                  >

                  > I agree with Adam that American and Canadian women and Jrs can go over plank

                  > barriers.

                  >

                  > Tom McDaniel

                  > Wooden Wheels Racing

                  > Granogue Cyclo-Cross

                  >

                  >

                  > 5.1.023

                  > The course may include no more than six obstacles. Obstacle shall mean any

                  > part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.

                  > The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres. The total length of

                  > obstacles

                  > may not exceed 10% of the course.

                  > Descents of flights of steps may not be used.

                  > (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).

                   

                   

                   

                   

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                  --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

                   

                   

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                   

                  <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/USAICO/

                   

                  <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

                      USAICO-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                   

                  <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

                      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

                   

                   

                   

                   



                • Tom Stevens
                  In reference to the talk about course obstacles; I just now looked at the current UCI Cross regulations on the UCI web site. The language about a pair of
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 21, 2004
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                    In reference to the talk about course obstacles; I just now looked at the current UCI Cross regulations on the UCI web site. The language about a pair of planks is still there as well as the up to 6 obstacle language.
                    Tom Stevens

                     
                  • myles romanow
                    I can understand the statement as to how a tree differs from another such obstacle like a hill, sand, etc. But then are we sayin a tree to heavy to move is an
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
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                      I can understand the statement as to how a tree
                      differs from another such obstacle like a hill, sand,
                      etc. But then are we sayin a tree to heavy to move is
                      an obstacle? Are we also saying that trees are not
                      considered a natural material by the UCI? Do they
                      have hidden swiss factories to produce artifical
                      trees?? It would seem to me that the rule is writen
                      in such a way as to encompass trees, stairs, sand,
                      gravel, hills, etc.

                      They have given us a MAXIMUM length said obstacle can
                      be, and a maximum percentage of the course. In no
                      verbage have they given us a minimum distance, which
                      would seem to be an easy way to eliminate fallen
                      trees.. (eg Individual obstacles shall be no MORE than
                      80m in lenght, and greater than 5m in length. Verbage
                      like this would eliminate trees, unless of course they
                      ar greater that 5 metres wide.. which is one hell of a
                      bunny hop..) THey even go into details on which items
                      cannot be used, descents of steps. In no location
                      does it mention fallen trees.

                      Additionally, fallen trees/logs are not mentioned in
                      the really really really bad things your course cannot
                      have section. According to the UCI you can't use
                      stairs... Obstables are deemed "any part of the course
                      that is likely to require the riders to dismount."
                      Well 10 stairs going uphill are DEFINITELY going to
                      require someone to dismount. So those are out too.

                      I think the lack of trees/fallen logs is bullshit.
                      Sure our course may actually be too hard with them in,
                      but we do have the facilities to remove them on race
                      day. With a course description of "A Cyclo-cross
                      course shall include road, country and forest paths
                      and meadowland ..." the possibility of encountering
                      such an obstacle is very very high.. I think if they
                      wished to eliminate such obstacles, they should have
                      mentioned specific verbage. Our trees, are less than
                      80m long, are only likely to require a dismount, and
                      stretch the width of the course...


                      myles




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                    • myles romanow
                      Also, in no part of MY uci rules does it state that an obstacle must be a permanent part of the landscape.. However, given the deterioration rate for 18 thick
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
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                        Also, in no part of MY uci rules does it state that an
                        obstacle must be a permanent part of the landscape..
                        However, given the deterioration rate for 18" thick
                        non rotted peice of wood with respectable tree cover,
                        it would likely naturally degrade in 130-160 years or
                        so...

                        Also regarding stairs, or log stairs... I'm saying
                        there out. "likely to require" is the key.. NOT
                        definitely require... Personally, my criteria is the
                        wacky UCI guidelines.. Then I give Feinberg a six pack
                        to see if he can ride it without crashing at race
                        pace.. If he can pull it off, then I'm saying it's
                        only LIKELY to require dismounting..


                        myles



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                      • Burgess Brian
                        You re reading to much into likely . Something that occurs 100% of the time is likely , as is something that occurs 51% of the time. myles romanow
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
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                          You're reading to much into 'likely'. Something that occurs 100% of the time is 'likely', as is something that occurs 51% of the time.

                          myles romanow <hamptonvelo@...> wrote:
                          Also, in no part of MY uci rules does it state that an
                          obstacle must be a permanent part of the landscape..
                          However, given the deterioration rate for 18" thick
                          non rotted peice of wood with respectable tree cover,
                          it would likely naturally degrade in 130-160 years or
                          so...

                          Also regarding stairs, or log stairs... I'm saying
                          there out.  "likely to require" is the key.. NOT
                          definitely require... Personally, my criteria is the
                          wacky UCI guidelines.. Then I give Feinberg a six pack
                          to see if he can ride it without crashing at race
                          pace.. If he can pull it off, then I'm saying it's
                          only LIKELY to require dismounting..


                          myles


                                     
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                        • myles romanow
                          Hey, what can I say.. I did have to study a lot of statistics at school... 100% of the time is DEFINITE.. Past UCI rules seemed to be written up to remove
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
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                            Hey, what can I say.. I did have to study a lot of
                            statistics at school... 100% of the time is DEFINITE..
                            Past UCI rules seemed to be written up to remove
                            Definite from the vocabulary. (51%-99% is likely,
                            although much more is one than the other..)

                            Personally I don't care one way or another what the
                            courses are made up with. Logs, sure.. Stairs, sure,
                            windy twisty forest paths of exactly 3m width? sure..
                            What do I care... It's cross. Part of the whole thing
                            is making the best possible course out of what you got
                            in your particular scenario.. I think the UCI rules
                            are merely trying to bring some uniformity to the
                            races that bear their name to insure

                            1-consistency of courses
                            2-safety
                            3-quality of race course
                            4-ease of access for media et all

                            I dont' know if something in the laws was lost in
                            translation, or not. But in my interpretation there
                            is nothign that states the logs are out, provided they
                            are part of the count of obstacles.. If someone else
                            has a different interpretation, provided they can
                            justify and defend their opinions, so be it. If there
                            is in fact supposed to be ONE other SOLITARY
                            interpretation, then I would venture it should be
                            adopted as a RULE and written out clearly as such.


                            Myles





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                          • Adam Hodges Myerson
                            Those logs were steps built into the ground, though. They were packed in with dirt. I have proof because I WAS THERE! So was JD. That s my point. They were
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
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                              Those "logs" were steps built into the ground, though. They were packed in
                              with dirt. I have proof because I WAS THERE! So was JD. That's my point.
                              They were permanent (or at least semi-permanent) parts of the landscape.
                              That's how they got around the rule. They weren't just moving phone poles
                              around on race day.

                              Adam


                              on 9/21/04 11:26 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:

                              > Oh in addition to all of that they used logs at CX worlds in France last
                              > year. JD sent me proof on DVD.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > They spaced them about 2m apart..8 or ten 4" to 6" logs about 20 Meters of
                              > running. It was inherently rabbit unfriendly.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Personally I like one obstacle that is hop friendly on a course. but set up
                              > so it doesn't give a huge advantage. Like maybe you could pick up one bike
                              > length on a good runner.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tom
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Tom McDaniel [mailto:ctmcdaniel@...]
                              > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:13 PM
                              > To: USAICO@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: RE: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Adam
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I just read the new rules with out trying to figure out their intent.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > We had this messed up text From last years 5.1.023 "the course can comprise
                              > on artificial obstacle..... blah blah" is gone.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > So... The rule reads:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > 5.1.023
                              >
                              > The course may include no more than six obstacles.
                              >
                              > Obstacle shall mean any part of the course which is likely to require riders
                              > to dismount.
                              >
                              > The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres.
                              >
                              > The total length of obstacles may not exceed 10% of the course.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Descents of flights of steps may not be used.
                              >
                              > (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).
                              >
                              > 10185-05 cyclo-E 17/08/04 11:00
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > So the current Definition of an obstacle = "any part of the course which is
                              > likely to require riders to dismount"
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Now if you use planks for an obstacles then you consult 5.1.024 Which by my
                              > reading applies only to plank barriers.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Other parts of the current rules prohibit steel and barb wire and anything
                              > unsafe. Other then that you can play with hills, sand, logs, roots, curbs
                              > etc etc.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Just for fun check the date of your "new rules" mine were updated Aug 17th
                              > 2004.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tom McD
                              >
                              > WWR
                              >
                              > GCX
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Adam Hodges Myerson [mailto:adam@...]
                              > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:36 PM
                              > To: USAICO
                              > Subject: Re: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Tom,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The only change I saw here is that now you can have 6 obstacles rather than
                              >
                              > 4 from previous years.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > How do you interpret that to mean adding logs? Why wouldn't a log be an
                              >
                              > artificial barrier, if it wasn't already part of the landscape?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I think if you actually built a set of stairs (even log stairs) that were
                              >
                              > "part of the landscape" you'd be be ok. But if you just dropped a few logs
                              >
                              > around the course?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Rob from Tailwind had asked me the same question so I'm glad we're talking
                              >
                              > about it.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Adam
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > on 9/21/04 8:00 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >> 5.1.023 Is a very flexible rule and leaves lots of room to put in
                              > obstacles
                              >
                              >> to force riders off their bike.
                              >
                              >>
                              >
                              >> At Granogue I am likely to add a few 4" to 6" logs here and there in a way
                              >
                              >> "which is likely to require riders to dismount".
                              >
                              >>
                              >
                              >> I agree with Adam that American and Canadian women and Jrs can go over
                              > plank
                              >
                              >> barriers.
                              >
                              >>
                              >
                              >> Tom McDaniel
                              >
                              >> Wooden Wheels Racing
                              >
                              >> Granogue Cyclo-Cross
                              >
                              >>
                              >
                              >>
                              >
                              >> 5.1.023
                              >
                              >> The course may include no more than six obstacles. Obstacle shall mean any
                              >
                              >> part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.
                              >
                              >> The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres. The total length of
                              >
                              >> obstacles
                              >
                              >> may not exceed 10% of the course.
                              >
                              >> Descents of flights of steps may not be used.
                              >
                              >> (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                            • sovek@cox.net
                              though i personally wouldn t use logs on my course...i would be much more concerned that they would move. logs are round and no matter how much you could
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Those "logs" were steps built into the ground, though. They were packed in
                                with dirt. I have proof because I WAS THERE! So was JD. That's my point.
                                They were permanent (or at least semi-permanent) parts of the landscape.
                                That's how they got around the rule. They weren't just moving phone poles
                                around on race day.

                                Adam


                                on 9/21/04 11:26 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:

                                > Oh in addition to all of that they used logs at CX worlds in France last
                                > year.  JD sent me proof on DVD.
                                >

                                >
                                > They spaced them about 2m apart..8 or ten 4" to 6" logs about 20 Meters of
                                > running.  It was inherently rabbit unfriendly.
                                >

                                >
                                > Personally I like one obstacle that is hop friendly on a course. but set up
                                > so it doesn't give a huge advantage.  Like maybe you could pick up one bike
                                > length on  a good runner.
                                >

                                >

                                >
                                > Tom
                                >

                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Tom McDaniel [mailto:ctmcdaniel@...]
                                > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 11:13 PM
                                > To: USAICO@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: RE: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"
                                >

                                >
                                > Adam
                                >

                                >
                                > I just read the new rules with out trying to figure out their intent.
                                >

                                >
                                > We had this messed up text From last years 5.1.023  "the course can comprise
                                > on artificial obstacle..... blah blah" is gone.
                                >

                                >
                                > So... The rule reads:
                                >

                                >
                                > 5.1.023
                                >
                                > The course may include no more than six obstacles.
                                >
                                > Obstacle shall mean any part of the course which is likely to require riders
                                > to dismount.
                                >
                                > The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres.
                                >
                                > The total length of obstacles may not exceed 10% of the course.
                                >

                                >
                                > Descents of flights of steps may not be used.
                                >
                                > (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).
                                >
                                > 10185-05 cyclo-E 17/08/04 11:00
                                >

                                >
                                > So the current Definition of an obstacle = "any part of the course which is
                                > likely to require riders to dismount"
                                >

                                >
                                > Now if you use planks for an obstacles then you consult 5.1.024 Which by my
                                > reading applies only to plank barriers.
                                >

                                >
                                > Other parts of the current rules prohibit steel and barb wire and anything
                                > unsafe. Other then that you can play with hills, sand, logs, roots, curbs
                                > etc etc.
                                >

                                >
                                > Just for fun check the date of your "new rules" mine were updated Aug 17th
                                > 2004.
                                >

                                >
                                > Tom McD
                                >
                                > WWR
                                >
                                > GCX
                                >

                                >

                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Adam Hodges Myerson [mailto:adam@...]
                                > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:36 PM
                                > To: USAICO
                                > Subject: Re: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"
                                >

                                >

                                >
                                > Tom,
                                >

                                >
                                > The only change I saw here is that now you can have 6 obstacles rather than
                                >
                                > 4 from previous years.
                                >

                                >
                                > How do you interpret that to mean adding logs? Why wouldn't a log be an
                                >
                                > artificial barrier, if it wasn't already part of the landscape?
                                >

                                >
                                > I think if you actually built a set of stairs (even log stairs) that were
                                >
                                > "part of the landscape" you'd be be ok. But if you just dropped a few logs
                                >
                                > around the course?
                                >

                                >
                                > Rob from Tailwind had asked me the same question so I'm glad we're talking
                                >
                                > about it.
                                >

                                >
                                > Adam
                                >

                                >

                                >
                                > on 9/21/04 8:00 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:
                                >

                                >
                                >> 5.1.023 Is a very flexible rule and leaves lots of room to put in
                                > obstacles
                                >
                                >> to force riders off their bike.
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> At Granogue I am likely to add a few 4" to 6" logs here and there in a way
                                >
                                >> "which is likely to require riders to dismount".
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> I agree with Adam that American and Canadian women and Jrs can go over
                                > plank
                                >
                                >> barriers.
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> Tom McDaniel
                                >
                                >> Wooden Wheels Racing
                                >
                                >> Granogue Cyclo-Cross
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >>
                                >
                                >> 5.1.023
                                >
                                >> The course may include no more than six obstacles. Obstacle shall mean any
                                >
                                >> part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.
                                >
                                >> The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres. The total length of
                                >
                                >> obstacles
                                >
                                >> may not exceed 10% of the course.
                                >
                                >> Descents of flights of steps may not be used.
                                >
                                >> (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).
                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >

                                >
                                >

                                >

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                              • Adam Hodges Myerson
                                You guys have to remember that a) these rules were written in another language and translated, and b) they re written by someone who s made some assumptions
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  You guys have to remember that a) these rules were written in another
                                  language and translated, and b) they're written by someone who's made some
                                  assumptions that the people reading them have a certain frame of reference
                                  already. That is, they know the situations the rules are trying to address.

                                  When I read these two rules, from the latest version:

                                  5.1.023 The course may include no more than six obstacles. Obstacle shall
                                  mean any part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.
                                  The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres. The total length of
                                  obstacles may not exceed 10% of the course. Descents of flights of steps may
                                  not be used.

                                  5.1.024 The course may include a single section of planks. This obstacle
                                  must consist of two planks placed 4 m apart. The planks must be solid for
                                  their entire height and not made of metal. They must have a height of 40 cm
                                  and extend the entire width of the course. In races for Junior Men and
                                  Women, it is recommended that a parallel course avoiding this obstacle
                                  should be used. In the event that the course is abnormally slippery, the
                                  plank section must be removed on the decision of the president of the
                                  commissaires' panel in consultation with the organiser and, should he be
                                  present, the UCI technical delegate or the Cyclo-cross coordinator.

                                  What I read them to mean is that obstacles are just what it says. Anything
                                  that will likely force a dismount that's part of the course. A section of
                                  sand, mud, a steep hill, an off-camber turn, a flight of stairs.

                                  But then, if you're going to ADD something to force a dismount, you can add
                                  add a single section of planks, and here's how the planks have to be. I read
                                  that as if you simply laid down two logs across the trail, they're operating
                                  as a set of planks.

                                  If you put those logs into the side of a hill and packed them up with dirt
                                  so that they were more like a permanent set of stairs than an approximation
                                  of a set of planks, then you'd be OK. Which is what they did at worlds last
                                  year.

                                  Stairs are ok, they just can't go downhill.

                                  I agree, these rules could and should be even more specific about what can
                                  and can't be used. But again, in my opinion, they're written with some
                                  understanding that, for instance, the reader knows what a "plank" is, and
                                  understands the intent of the rule.

                                  The intent of the rule, again, IMO, is that you should be forcing up to 6
                                  dismounts with good course design and landscape rather than placed barriers.
                                  But you can still place one set of barriers, and if you do, here's how they
                                  should look.

                                  If you go looking for loopholes in the rules so you can make the riders jump
                                  through hoops, you should just give out bananas as prizes and call it a
                                  circus.

                                  Adam

                                  on 9/21/04 11:13 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:

                                  > Adam
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I just read the new rules with out trying to figure out their intent.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > We had this messed up text From last years 5.1.023 "the course can comprise
                                  > on artificial obstacle..... blah blah" is gone.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > So... The rule reads:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > 5.1.023
                                  >
                                  > The course may include no more than six obstacles.
                                  >
                                  > Obstacle shall mean any part of the course which is likely to require riders
                                  > to dismount.
                                  >
                                  > The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres.
                                  >
                                  > The total length of obstacles may not exceed 10% of the course.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Descents of flights of steps may not be used.
                                  >
                                  > (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).
                                  >
                                  > 10185-05 cyclo-E 17/08/04 11:00
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > So the current Definition of an obstacle = "any part of the course which is
                                  > likely to require riders to dismount"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Now if you use planks for an obstacles then you consult 5.1.024 Which by my
                                  > reading applies only to plank barriers.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Other parts of the current rules prohibit steel and barb wire and anything
                                  > unsafe. Other then that you can play with hills, sand, logs, roots, curbs
                                  > etc etc.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Just for fun check the date of your "new rules" mine were updated Aug 17th
                                  > 2004.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tom McD
                                  >
                                  > WWR
                                  >
                                  > GCX
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: Adam Hodges Myerson [mailto:adam@...]
                                  > Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 9:36 PM
                                  > To: USAICO
                                  > Subject: Re: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Tom,
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The only change I saw here is that now you can have 6 obstacles rather than
                                  >
                                  > 4 from previous years.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > How do you interpret that to mean adding logs? Why wouldn't a log be an
                                  >
                                  > artificial barrier, if it wasn't already part of the landscape?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I think if you actually built a set of stairs (even log stairs) that were
                                  >
                                  > "part of the landscape" you'd be be ok. But if you just dropped a few logs
                                  >
                                  > around the course?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Rob from Tailwind had asked me the same question so I'm glad we're talking
                                  >
                                  > about it.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Adam
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > on 9/21/04 8:00 PM, Tom McDaniel at ctmcdaniel@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >> 5.1.023 Is a very flexible rule and leaves lots of room to put in
                                  > obstacles
                                  >
                                  >> to force riders off their bike.
                                  >
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >> At Granogue I am likely to add a few 4" to 6" logs here and there in a way
                                  >
                                  >> "which is likely to require riders to dismount".
                                  >
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >> I agree with Adam that American and Canadian women and Jrs can go over
                                  > plank
                                  >
                                  >> barriers.
                                  >
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >> Tom McDaniel
                                  >
                                  >> Wooden Wheels Racing
                                  >
                                  >> Granogue Cyclo-Cross
                                  >
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  >> 5.1.023
                                  >
                                  >> The course may include no more than six obstacles. Obstacle shall mean any
                                  >
                                  >> part of the course which is likely to require riders to dismount.
                                  >
                                  >> The length of an obstacle may not exceed 80 metres. The total length of
                                  >
                                  >> obstacles
                                  >
                                  >> may not exceed 10% of the course.
                                  >
                                  >> Descents of flights of steps may not be used.
                                  >
                                  >> (text modified on 1.08.00; 1.09.04).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/USAICO/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
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                                • Burgess Brian
                                  If there is no definite in the current regs, than likely is anything 51% and up. If they re not making the distinction, creating a distinction between
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    If there is no 'definite' in the current regs, than 'likely' is anything 51% and up. If they're not making the distinction, creating a distinction between likely and definite serves no purpose.
                                     
                                    You don't need stats. Just ask yourself a question like this:
                                     
                                    "Is it likely the sun is going to rise tomorrow?"
                                     
                                    The answer is "yes".

                                    myles romanow <bikeguy11968@...> wrote:
                                    Hey, what can I say.. I did have to study a lot of
                                    statistics at school... 100% of the time is DEFINITE..
                                    Past UCI rules seemed to be written up to remove
                                    Definite from the vocabulary.  (51%-99% is likely,
                                    although much more is one than the other..)

                                    Personally I don't care one way or another what the
                                    courses are made up with. Logs, sure.. Stairs, sure,
                                    windy twisty forest paths of exactly 3m width? sure..
                                    What do I care... It's cross.  Part of the whole thing
                                    is making the best possible course out of what you got
                                    in your particular scenario.. I think the UCI rules
                                    are merely trying to bring some uniformity to the
                                    races that bear their name to insure

                                    1-consistency of courses
                                    2-safety
                                    3-quality of race course
                                    4-ease of access for media et all

                                    I dont' know if something in the laws was lost in
                                    translation, or not.  But in my interpretation there
                                    is nothign that states the logs are out, provided they
                                    are part of the count of  obstacles.. If someone else
                                    has a different interpretation, provided they can
                                    justify and defend their opinions, so be it.  If there
                                    is in fact supposed to be ONE other SOLITARY
                                    interpretation, then I would venture it should be
                                    adopted as a RULE and written out clearly as such.


                                    Myles




                                               
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                                  • Tom McDaniel
                                    I just read the doc sent out from Randy Shafer. Apparently in Belgium an obstacle is any non Belgium rider.. Tom
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
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                                      I just read the doc sent out from Randy Shafer.

                                       

                                      Apparently in Belgium an obstacle is any non Belgium rider….

                                       

                                       

                                      Tom

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                    • Steve Litvin
                                      Adam actually used me as a obstacle on monday when we (Steve, Craig and Alec from HPCX w/ Adam and JD) got together for a couse designing session .... I felt
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Adam actually used me as a obstacle on monday when we (Steve, Craig and Alec from HPCX w/ Adam and JD) got together for a couse designing session .... I felt cheap. Hopefully I wont make the final course design.
                                         
                                        Steve
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 1:03 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [USAICO] Rule 5.1.024 "Plank Sections"

                                        I just read the doc sent out from Randy Shafer.

                                         

                                        Apparently in Belgium an obstacle is any non Belgium riderÂ….

                                         

                                         

                                        Tom

                                         

                                         

                                         



                                      • kjc
                                        is it likely that we ve beaten this topic to a bloody pulp...? definitely...! please use common sense when designing your course. here s what we know: we can
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          is it likely that we've beaten this topic to a bloody
                                          pulp...? definitely...!

                                          please use common sense when designing your course.
                                          here's what we know:

                                          we can use one (1) set of 40cm barriers placed 4m
                                          apart.

                                          if additional obstacles are wanted, we can use
                                          unridable hills, off-camber sections, stairs, etc.

                                          IMO, it IS possible to design a good course with ONLY
                                          one set of planks. so leave your chain saws at home
                                          and focus on designing a course that has good flow and
                                          balance (good flow = intense sections followed by
                                          short recovery sections).

                                          rule 5.1.018 states:

                                          The use of dangerous items along the course is
                                          forbidden. The course must also be kept away from any
                                          item which presents danger to the riders.

                                          IMO, placed logs and downed trees, in a UCI race,
                                          present danger to the riders.



                                          --- Burgess Brian <brianburgess3593@...> wrote:

                                          > If there is no 'definite' in the current regs, than
                                          > 'likely' is anything 51% and up. If they're not
                                          > making the distinction, creating a distinction
                                          > between likely and definite serves no purpose.
                                          >
                                          > You don't need stats. Just ask yourself a question
                                          > like this:
                                          >
                                          > "Is it likely the sun is going to rise tomorrow?"
                                          >
                                          > The answer is "yes".
                                          >
                                          > myles romanow <bikeguy11968@...> wrote:
                                          > Hey, what can I say.. I did have to study a lot of
                                          > statistics at school... 100% of the time is
                                          > DEFINITE..
                                          > Past UCI rules seemed to be written up to remove
                                          > Definite from the vocabulary. (51%-99% is likely,
                                          > although much more is one than the other..)
                                          >
                                          > Personally I don't care one way or another what the
                                          > courses are made up with. Logs, sure.. Stairs, sure,
                                          > windy twisty forest paths of exactly 3m width?
                                          > sure..
                                          > What do I care... It's cross. Part of the whole
                                          > thing
                                          > is making the best possible course out of what you
                                          > got
                                          > in your particular scenario.. I think the UCI rules
                                          > are merely trying to bring some uniformity to the
                                          > races that bear their name to insure
                                          >
                                          > 1-consistency of courses
                                          > 2-safety
                                          > 3-quality of race course
                                          > 4-ease of access for media et all
                                          >
                                          > I dont' know if something in the laws was lost in
                                          > translation, or not. But in my interpretation there
                                          > is nothign that states the logs are out, provided
                                          > they
                                          > are part of the count of obstacles.. If someone
                                          > else
                                          > has a different interpretation, provided they can
                                          > justify and defend their opinions, so be it. If
                                          > there
                                          > is in fact supposed to be ONE other SOLITARY
                                          > interpretation, then I would venture it should be
                                          > adopted as a RULE and written out clearly as such.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Myles
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Steve Litvin
                                          so leave your chain saws at home ... I agree....a chainsaw would def. be conisdered a dangerous obstical.... steve
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
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                                            so leave your chain saws at home
                                            > and focus on designing a course that has good flow and
                                            > balance (good flow = intense sections followed by
                                            > short recovery sections).

                                            I agree....a chainsaw would def. be conisdered a dangerous obstical....

                                            steve
                                          • myles romanow
                                            So to recap.. Logs bolted to the ground with 18inch spikes where the convenientely fell are out.. Okay... Logs bolted to the ground and slightly buried on a
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Sep 22, 2004
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                                              So to recap.. Logs bolted to the ground with 18inch
                                              spikes where the convenientely fell are out.. Okay...
                                              Logs bolted to the ground and slightly buried on a
                                              uphill placed by men are in... Okay..

                                              Myles




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