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17-18 only UCI races

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  • Adam Myerson
    Organizers, There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where they are able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
      Organizers,

      There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where they are
      able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage events.
      This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they compete at
      World Cups and World Championships.

      We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it required the
      17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with any other
      classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
      category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few years. Now it
      might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18 riders.

      My question here is whether any of you would consider running a dedicated
      17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
      impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add another
      start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes that it
      would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20 juniors.

      However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a move like
      that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower categories and
      are still able to combine those classes to make room for the juniors.
      Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add another
      draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
      prioritize those races with separate starts.

      There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and the last
      thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying around
      collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a degree, but
      it's unfortunate.

      Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we think the
      first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be interested.
      From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's possible to
      add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I think
      it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the new points
      systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.

      Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to express your
      interest.

      Adam
    • Alan Atwood
      Would the Mid-Atlantic style work; jr 17-18 on course with Masters or some other group? Alan To: USAICO@yahoogroups.comFrom: adam@cycle-smart.comDate: Tue, 8
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
        Would the Mid-Atlantic style work; jr 17-18 on course with Masters or some other group?
         
        Alan






        To: USAICO@yahoogroups.com
        From: adam@...
        Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:03:19 -0400
        Subject: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races


        Organizers,

        There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where they are
        able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage events.
        This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they compete at
        World Cups and World Championships.

        We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it required the
        17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with any other
        classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
        category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few years. Now it
        might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18 riders.

        My question here is whether any of you would consider running a dedicated
        17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
        impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add another
        start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes that it
        would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20 juniors.

        However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a move like
        that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower categories and
        are still able to combine those classes to make room for the juniors.
        Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add another
        draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
        prioritize those races with separate starts.

        There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and the last
        thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying around
        collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a degree, but
        it's unfortunate.

        Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we think the
        first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be interested.
        From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's possible to
        add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I think
        it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the new points
        systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.

        Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to express your
        interest.

        Adam


      • Adam Myerson
        No, they have to have their own start and not share the course with any other category. -- Adam Myerson, Cycle-Smart 413-204-3202 adam@cycle-smart.com sent by
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
          No, they have to have their own start and not share the course with any other category.

          --
          Adam Myerson, Cycle-Smart
          413-204-3202
          adam@...
          sent by Treo 700p

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Alan Atwood <Alan_Atwood@...>
          Date: Tuesday, Jul 8, 2008 3:59 pm
          Subject: RE: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races
          To: <usaico@yahoogroups.com>

          Would the Mid-Atlantic style work; jr 17-18 on course with Masters or some other group?
          >
          >Alan
          >
          >
          >
          >To: USAICO@yahoogroups.comFrom: adam@...: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:03:19 -0400Subject: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Organizers,There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where they areable to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage events.This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they compete atWorld Cups and World Championships.We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it required the17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with any otherclasses. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few years. Now itmight come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18 riders.My question here is whether any of you would consider running a dedicated17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearlyimpossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add anotherstart, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes that itwould be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20 juniors.However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a move likethat, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower categories andare still able to combine those classes to make room for the juniors.Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add anotherdraw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors wouldprioritize those races with separate starts.There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and the lastthing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying aroundcollecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a degree, butit's unfortunate.Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we think thefirst step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be interested.From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's possible toadd the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I thinkit's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the new pointssystems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to express yourinterest.Adam
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Alan Atwood
          OK. With that in mind, it pretty much limits this to events before November (end of DST) and the USGP.
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
            OK.
             
            With that in mind, it pretty much limits this to events before November (end of DST) and the USGP. 




            > From: adam@...
            > Subject: RE: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races
            > To: Alan_Atwood@...
            > CC: usaico@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 13:09:16 -0700
            >
            > No, they have to have their own start and not share the course with any other category.
            >
            > --
            > Adam Myerson, Cycle-Smart
            > 413-204-3202
            > adam@...
            > sent by Treo 700p
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Alan Atwood <Alan_Atwood@...>
            > Date: Tuesday, Jul 8, 2008 3:59 pm
            > Subject: RE: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races
            > To: <usaico@yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > Would the Mid-Atlantic style work; jr 17-18 on course with Masters or some other group?
            > >
            > >Alan
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >To: USAICO@yahoogroups.comFrom: adam@...: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 15:03:19 -0400Subject: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >Organizers,There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where they areable to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage events.This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they compete atWorld Cups and World Championships.We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it required the17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with any otherclasses. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few years. Now itmight come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18 riders.My question here is whether any of you would consider running a dedicated17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearlyimpossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add anotherstart, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes that itwould be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20 juniors.However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a move likethat, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower categories andare still able to combine those classes to make room for the juniors.Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add anotherdraw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors wouldprioritize those races with separate starts.There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and the lastthing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying aroundcollecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a degree, butit's unfortunate.Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we think thefirst step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be interested.From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's possible toadd the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I thinkit's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the new pointssystems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to express yourinterest.Adam
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >

          • Renee Callaway
            Adam, What time length would the race need to be - 45 min, 60 min or something else?  And if we offered this category would it still be acceptable if we ran a
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
              Adam,
               
              What time length would the race need to be - 45 min, 60 min or something else?  And if we offered this category would it still be acceptable if we ran a 15-18 year old class that was non-UCI?  Our races are part of our series and we likely would have local juniors that would want to race their normal series category. Also, what would the prize payout requirement be?  And if 17-18 year old girls did the race and were in the results would that help the power that be see that girls need a world championship too :-)
               
              Thanks,
              Renee
               

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Adam Myerson <adam@...>
              To: USAICO <USAICO@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:03:19 PM
              Subject: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races

              Organizers,

              There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where they are
              able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage events.
              This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they compete at
              World Cups and World Championships.

              We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it required the
              17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with any other
              classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
              category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few years. Now it
              might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18 riders.

              My question here is whether any of you would consider running a dedicated
              17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
              impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add another
              start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes that it
              would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20 juniors.

              However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a move like
              that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower categories and
              are still able to combine those classes to make room for the juniors.
              Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add another
              draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
              prioritize those races with separate starts.

              There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and the last
              thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying around
              collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a degree, but
              it's unfortunate.

              Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we think the
              first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be interested.
              From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's possible to
              add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I think
              it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the new points
              systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.

              Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to express your
              interest.

              Adam

            • Adam Myerson
              The race would have to be the standard 40 minutes. You could absolutely run a 15-18 year old juniors race, and that s what most of us are doing. But if you
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
                The race would have to be the standard 40 minutes.

                You could absolutely run a 15-18 year old juniors race, and that's what most
                of us are doing. But if you mean on top of the 17-18 UCI race, then I think
                that would be redundant. I don't know how to solve the series points
                problem, but you'd be penalizing one group either way.

                Junior women can't race with the junior men if it's UCI, unfortunately. That
                goes for every discipline, not just 'cross, similar to if it was a
                championship event.

                Adam


                on 7/8/08 4:26 PM, Renee Callaway at rccallaway@... wrote:

                > Adam,
                > What time length would the race need to be - 45 min, 60 min or something
                > else?  And if we offered this category would it still be acceptable if we ran
                > a 15-18 year old class that was non-UCI?  Our races are part of our series and
                > we likely would have local juniors that would want to race their normal series
                > category. Also, what would the prize payout requirement be?  And if 17-18 year
                > old girls did the race and were in the results would that help the power that
                > be see that girls need a world championship too :-)
                > Thanks,
                > Renee
                > www.madcross.org
                >  
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: Adam Myerson <adam@...>
                > To: USAICO <USAICO@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, July 8, 2008 2:03:19 PM
                > Subject: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races
                >
                >
                > Organizers,
                >
                > There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where they are
                > able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage events.
                > This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they compete at
                > World Cups and World Championships.
                >
                > We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it required the
                > 17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with any other
                > classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
                > category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few years. Now it
                > might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18 riders.
                >
                > My question here is whether any of you would consider running a dedicated
                > 17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
                > impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add another
                > start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes that it
                > would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20 juniors.
                >
                > However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a move like
                > that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower categories and
                > are still able to combine those classes to make room for the juniors.
                > Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add another
                > draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
                > prioritize those races with separate starts.
                >
                > There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and the last
                > thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying around
                > collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a degree, but
                > it's unfortunate.
                >
                > Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we think the
                > first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be interested.
                > From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's possible to
                > add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I think
                > it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the new points
                > systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.
                >
                > Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to express your
                > interest.
                >
                > Adam
                >
                >
              • hawkeyealumni
                I agree with Adam s initial comments and his thoughts on this issue. It sure would be great to have this event and we support the concept for such a high
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
                  I agree with Adam's initial comments and his thoughts on this issue.
                  It sure would be great to have this event and we support the concept
                  for such a high quality juniors event. Unfortunately, its feasibility
                  is nearly impossible. Adam hit it right on the head as it would be a
                  major financial gamble and will be costly for races from a time
                  standpoint as there are simply not enough hours in the day to do
                  this.

                  2 additional points....

                  First...It's funny that this has come up this year from the UCI. Last
                  year, we were informed on our UCI evaluation that we (along with
                  every other US UCI race) violate the UCI rule that all UCI events are
                  limited to 5 races (start times) in a given day. We had 6 at our
                  Jingle Cross with several categories started at the same time to make
                  one race. The USGP has done that too but I haven't found any large
                  events with only 5 start times..most have 6 or 7. Even the USGP han't
                  been able to pull that off. With the men's UCI start time required
                  separate, the women's UCI start time required separate, now a 17-18
                  UCI separate time, how can the UCI expect us to put this event on?

                  Second...The most difficult thing I am concerned with this year is
                  athlete's travel. Besides the skyrocketing gas prices and airline
                  ticket prices, I just traveled with my bike at $150 each way via
                  Northwest Airlines...double what it was 6 months ago. Even if someone
                  puts this 17-18 race on, will anyone travel to it? Will anyone travel
                  this year besides regionally?

                  Cheers

                  John Meehan
                  206 947-7793
                  2008 Carousel Volkswagen Jingle Cross Rock
                  Iowa City, Iowa


                  --- In USAICO@yahoogroups.com, Adam Myerson <adam@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Organizers,
                  >
                  > There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where
                  they are
                  > able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage
                  events.
                  > This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they
                  compete at
                  > World Cups and World Championships.
                  >
                  > We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it
                  required the
                  > 17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with
                  any other
                  > classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
                  > category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few
                  years. Now it
                  > might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18
                  riders.
                  >
                  > My question here is whether any of you would consider running a
                  dedicated
                  > 17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
                  > impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add
                  another
                  > start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes
                  that it
                  > would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20
                  juniors.
                  >
                  > However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a
                  move like
                  > that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower
                  categories and
                  > are still able to combine those classes to make room for the
                  juniors.
                  > Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add
                  another
                  > draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
                  > prioritize those races with separate starts.
                  >
                  > There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and
                  the last
                  > thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying
                  around
                  > collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a
                  degree, but
                  > it's unfortunate.
                  >
                  > Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we
                  think the
                  > first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be
                  interested.
                  > From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's
                  possible to
                  > add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I
                  think
                  > it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the
                  new points
                  > systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.
                  >
                  > Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to
                  express your
                  > interest.
                  >
                  > Adam
                  >
                • Adam Myerson
                  Who was your chief, John? Who wrote your evaluation? The way we ve always fudged it is that we only run 2 UCI events on a given day (elite men and women). No
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
                    Who was your chief, John? Who wrote your evaluation?

                    The way we've always fudged it is that we only run 2 UCI events on a given
                    day (elite men and women). No one says anything about how many USCF races we
                    can run that day.


                    on 7/8/08 7:39 PM, hawkeyealumni at john.meehan@... wrote:

                    > I agree with Adam's initial comments and his thoughts on this issue.
                    > It sure would be great to have this event and we support the concept
                    > for such a high quality juniors event. Unfortunately, its feasibility
                    > is nearly impossible. Adam hit it right on the head as it would be a
                    > major financial gamble and will be costly for races from a time
                    > standpoint as there are simply not enough hours in the day to do
                    > this.
                    >
                    > 2 additional points....
                    >
                    > First...It's funny that this has come up this year from the UCI. Last
                    > year, we were informed on our UCI evaluation that we (along with
                    > every other US UCI race) violate the UCI rule that all UCI events are
                    > limited to 5 races (start times) in a given day. We had 6 at our
                    > Jingle Cross with several categories started at the same time to make
                    > one race. The USGP has done that too but I haven't found any large
                    > events with only 5 start times..most have 6 or 7. Even the USGP han't
                    > been able to pull that off. With the men's UCI start time required
                    > separate, the women's UCI start time required separate, now a 17-18
                    > UCI separate time, how can the UCI expect us to put this event on?
                    >
                    > Second...The most difficult thing I am concerned with this year is
                    > athlete's travel. Besides the skyrocketing gas prices and airline
                    > ticket prices, I just traveled with my bike at $150 each way via
                    > Northwest Airlines...double what it was 6 months ago. Even if someone
                    > puts this 17-18 race on, will anyone travel to it? Will anyone travel
                    > this year besides regionally?
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    >
                    > John Meehan
                    > 206 947-7793
                    > 2008 Carousel Volkswagen Jingle Cross Rock
                    > Iowa City, Iowa
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In USAICO@yahoogroups.com, Adam Myerson <adam@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Organizers,
                    >>
                    >> There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where
                    > they are
                    >> able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage
                    > events.
                    >> This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they
                    > compete at
                    >> World Cups and World Championships.
                    >>
                    >> We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it
                    > required the
                    >> 17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with
                    > any other
                    >> classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
                    >> category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few
                    > years. Now it
                    >> might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18
                    > riders.
                    >>
                    >> My question here is whether any of you would consider running a
                    > dedicated
                    >> 17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
                    >> impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add
                    > another
                    >> start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes
                    > that it
                    >> would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20
                    > juniors.
                    >>
                    >> However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a
                    > move like
                    >> that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower
                    > categories and
                    >> are still able to combine those classes to make room for the
                    > juniors.
                    >> Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add
                    > another
                    >> draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
                    >> prioritize those races with separate starts.
                    >>
                    >> There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and
                    > the last
                    >> thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying
                    > around
                    >> collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a
                    > degree, but
                    >> it's unfortunate.
                    >>
                    >> Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we
                    > think the
                    >> first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be
                    > interested.
                    >> From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's
                    > possible to
                    >> add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I
                    > think
                    >> it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the
                    > new points
                    >> systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.
                    >>
                    >> Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to
                    > express your
                    >> interest.
                    >>
                    >> Adam
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Meehan, John
                    Phil Miller...he was very specific about it but also commented that it is not well enforced in the US. Although we only had 2 UCI events, we also had 4 other
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 8, 2008
                      Phil Miller...he was very specific about it but also commented that it is not well enforced in the US. Although we only had 2 UCI events, we also had 4 other races (masters, men's intermediate, women's intermediate, beginners/jnuiors/single speed) He explained that each of these counted in the total (the USCF/USAC events too) as one event per start time. I had the same questions you asked but obviously it's a rule they overlook.
                       
                      From what I recall, he also stated that the reason for the rule was to avoid having the course too beat up by the time the last event happened (ironic that course damage is really a function of the number of riders and not the number of events). He also said that he and others were very interested in trying to make that rule more important in the future, citing the USGP in particular as a potential testing ground for it. I have not heard anything since then...
                       
                      John

                      From: USAICO@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Adam Myerson
                      Sent: Tue 7/8/2008 4:43 PM
                      To: USAICO
                      Subject: Re: [USAICO] Re: 17-18 only UCI races

                      Who was your chief, John? Who wrote your evaluation?

                      The way we've always fudged it is that we only run 2 UCI events on a given
                      day (elite men and women). No one says anything about how many USCF races we
                      can run that day.

                      on 7/8/08 7:39 PM, hawkeyealumni at john.meehan@ seattlechildrens .org wrote:

                      > I agree with Adam's initial comments and his thoughts on this issue.
                      > It sure would be great to have this event and we support the concept
                      > for such a high quality juniors event. Unfortunately, its feasibility
                      > is nearly impossible. Adam hit it right on the head as it would be a
                      > major financial gamble and will be costly for races from a time
                      > standpoint as there are simply not enough hours in the day to do
                      > this.
                      >
                      > 2 additional points....
                      >
                      > First...It's funny that this has come up this year from the UCI. Last
                      > year, we were informed on our UCI evaluation that we (along with
                      > every other US UCI race) violate the UCI rule that all UCI events are
                      > limited to 5 races (start times) in a given day. We had 6 at our
                      > Jingle Cross with several categories started at the same time to make
                      > one race. The USGP has done that too but I haven't found any large
                      > events with only 5 start times..most have 6 or 7. Even the USGP han't
                      > been able to pull that off. With the men's UCI start time required
                      > separate, the women's UCI start time required separate, now a 17-18
                      > UCI separate time, how can the UCI expect us to put this event on?
                      >
                      > Second...The most difficult thing I am concerned with this year is
                      > athlete's travel. Besides the skyrocketing gas prices and airline
                      > ticket prices, I just traveled with my bike at $150 each way via
                      > Northwest Airlines...double what it was 6 months ago. Even if someone
                      > puts this 17-18 race on, will anyone travel to it? Will anyone travel
                      > this year besides regionally?
                      >
                      > Cheers
                      >
                      > John Meehan
                      > 206 947-7793
                      > 2008 Carousel Volkswagen Jingle Cross Rock
                      > Iowa City, Iowa
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In USAICO@yahoogroups. com, Adam Myerson <adam@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Organizers,
                      >>
                      >> There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where
                      > they are
                      >> able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage
                      > events.
                      >> This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they
                      > compete at
                      >> World Cups and World Championships.
                      >>
                      >> We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it
                      > required the
                      >> 17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with
                      > any other
                      >> classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
                      >> category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few
                      > years. Now it
                      >> might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18
                      > riders.
                      >>
                      >> My question here is whether any of you would consider running a
                      > dedicated
                      >> 17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
                      >> impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add
                      > another
                      >> start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes
                      > that it
                      >> would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20
                      > juniors.
                      >>
                      >> However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a
                      > move like
                      >> that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower
                      > categories and
                      >> are still able to combine those classes to make room for the
                      > juniors.
                      >> Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add
                      > another
                      >> draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
                      >> prioritize those races with separate starts.
                      >>
                      >> There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and
                      > the last
                      >> thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying
                      > around
                      >> collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a
                      > degree, but
                      >> it's unfortunate.
                      >>
                      >> Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we
                      > think the
                      >> first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be
                      > interested.
                      >> From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's
                      > possible to
                      >> add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I
                      > think
                      >> it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the
                      > new points
                      >> systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.
                      >>
                      >> Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to
                      > express your
                      >> interest.
                      >>
                      >> Adam
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
                    • Mitch Graham
                      This might make sense in adverse conditions, but for the vast majority of the UCI races in the states held in normal conditions it wouldn t make a significant
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 9, 2008
                        This might make sense in adverse conditions, but for the vast majority of the UCI races in the states held in normal conditions it wouldn't make a significant difference (to the course conditions) how many events or riders were out on the course prior to the Elites. 

                        All of the elites have to race on the same course, regardless of how chewed up it is... so to me it's silly for a chief to fixate on this rule.

                        As for the Elite junior 17-18 class, we'd be hip to that. 


                        --- On Tue, 7/8/08, Meehan, John <john.meehan@...> wrote:
                        From: Meehan, John <john.meehan@...>
                        Subject: RE: [USAICO] Re: 17-18 only UCI races
                        To: USAICO@yahoogroups.com, "USAICO" <USAICO@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Tuesday, July 8, 2008, 7:54 PM

                        Phil Miller...he was very specific about it but also commented that it is not well enforced in the US. Although we only had 2 UCI events, we also had 4 other races (masters, men's intermediate, women's intermediate, beginners/jnuiors/ single speed) He explained that each of these counted in the total (the USCF/USAC events too) as one event per start time. I had the same questions you asked but obviously it's a rule they overlook.
                         
                        From what I recall, he also stated that the reason for the rule was to avoid having the course too beat up by the time the last event happened (ironic that course damage is really a function of the number of riders and not the number of events). He also said that he and others were very interested in trying to make that rule more important in the future, citing the USGP in particular as a potential testing ground for it. I have not heard anything since then...
                         
                        John

                        From: USAICO@yahoogroups. com on behalf of Adam Myerson
                        Sent: Tue 7/8/2008 4:43 PM
                        To: USAICO
                        Subject: Re: [USAICO] Re: 17-18 only UCI races

                        Who was your chief, John? Who wrote your evaluation?

                        The way we've always fudged it is that we only run 2 UCI events on a given
                        day (elite men and women). No one says anything about how many USCF races we
                        can run that day.

                        on 7/8/08 7:39 PM, hawkeyealumni at john.meehan@ seattlechildrens .org wrote:

                        > I agree with Adam's initial comments and his thoughts on this issue.
                        > It sure would be great to have this event and we support the concept
                        > for such a high quality juniors event. Unfortunately, its feasibility
                        > is nearly impossible. Adam hit it right on the head as it would be a
                        > major financial gamble and will be costly for races from a time
                        > standpoint as there are simply not enough hours in the day to do
                        > this.
                        >
                        > 2 additional points....
                        >
                        > First...It's funny that this has come up this year from the UCI. Last
                        > year, we were informed on our UCI evaluation that we (along with
                        > every other US UCI race) violate the UCI rule that all UCI events are
                        > limited to 5 races (start times) in a given day. We had 6 at our
                        > Jingle Cross with several categories started at the same time to make
                        > one race. The USGP has done that too but I haven't found any large
                        > events with only 5 start times..most have 6 or 7. Even the USGP han't
                        > been able to pull that off. With the men's UCI start time required
                        > separate, the women's UCI start time required separate, now a 17-18
                        > UCI separate time, how can the UCI expect us to put this event on?
                        >
                        > Second...The most difficult thing I am concerned with this year is
                        > athlete's travel. Besides the skyrocketing gas prices and airline
                        > ticket prices, I just traveled with my bike at $150 each way via
                        > Northwest Airlines...double what it was 6 months ago. Even if someone
                        > puts this 17-18 race on, will anyone travel to it? Will anyone travel
                        > this year besides regionally?
                        >
                        > Cheers
                        >
                        > John Meehan
                        > 206 947-7793
                        > 2008 Carousel Volkswagen Jingle Cross Rock
                        > Iowa City, Iowa
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In USAICO@yahoogroups. com, Adam Myerson <adam@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        >> Organizers,
                        >>
                        >> There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where
                        > they are
                        >> able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage
                        > events.
                        >> This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they
                        > compete at
                        >> World Cups and World Championships.
                        >>
                        >> We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it
                        > required the
                        >> 17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with
                        > any other
                        >> classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
                        >> category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few
                        > years. Now it
                        >> might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18
                        > riders.
                        >>
                        >> My question here is whether any of you would consider running a
                        > dedicated
                        >> 17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
                        >> impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add
                        > another
                        >> start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes
                        > that it
                        >> would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20
                        > juniors.
                        >>
                        >> However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a
                        > move like
                        >> that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower
                        > categories and
                        >> are still able to combine those classes to make room for the
                        > juniors.
                        >> Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add
                        > another
                        >> draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
                        >> prioritize those races with separate starts.
                        >>
                        >> There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and
                        > the last
                        >> thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying
                        > around
                        >> collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a
                        > degree, but
                        >> it's unfortunate.
                        >>
                        >> Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we
                        > think the
                        >> first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be
                        > interested.
                        >> From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's
                        > possible to
                        >> add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I
                        > think
                        >> it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the
                        > new points
                        >> systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.
                        >>
                        >> Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to
                        > express your
                        >> interest.
                        >>
                        >> Adam
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information protected by law. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.

                      • Tom McDaniel
                        If only one or two jr s show up for the UCI 17 to 18 class will their points be counted (ie is there a minium field size?) How would we amend our permits to
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 10, 2008

                           

                           

                          If only one or two jr’s show up for the UCI 17 to 18 class will their points be counted (ie is there a minium field size?)

                           

                           

                          How would we amend our permits to add a 17-18 UCI class?  

                           

                          What would be the license requiments?

                           

                          Tom

                           


                          From: USAICO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:USAICO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adam Myerson
                          Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2008 3:03 PM
                          To: USAICO
                          Subject: [USAICO] 17-18 only UCI races

                           

                          Organizers,

                          There is a new ranking for next season for the 17-18 juniors, where they are
                          able to score UCI points, and their ranking will be used to stage events.
                          This is fairly crucial for our international juniors when they compete at
                          World Cups and World Championships.

                          We have avoided doing UCI junior races in the past, because it required the
                          17-18's to have their own start slot and not share the course with any other
                          classes. We've always felt that it was better race if it was a 16-18
                          category, and we've seen that has been true over the past few years. Now it
                          might come at the expense of a small handful of our top 17-18 riders.

                          My question here is whether any of you would consider running a dedicated
                          17-18 class at your event. I think for many organizers, it's nearly
                          impossible. There are simply not enough hours in the day to add another
                          start, and the turnouts are so large in some of the B and C classes that it
                          would be financially disastrous to cut them to make room for 20 juniors.

                          However, some of you may have the sponsorship dollars to afford a move like
                          that, or perhaps don't have the huge turnouts in your lower categories and
                          are still able to combine those classes to make room for the juniors.
                          Further, for those who could pull it off, it would certainly add another
                          draw or possibility for marketing, as many of the top juniors would
                          prioritize those races with separate starts.

                          There are other downsides, of course. The US is a big country, and the last
                          thing we wanted to see was a points chase for rich kids flying around
                          collecting UCI points like pros. That may be inevitable to a degree, but
                          it's unfortunate.

                          Marc, Geoff, and I have been discussing this at length, and we think the
                          first step is simply polling the organizers and see who might be interested.
                          From there, I'm willing to go back to the UCI and see if it's possible to
                          add the Junior race to your inscription still at this late date. I think
                          it's a compromise they should be willing to make, considering the new points
                          systems was only proposed in February, and ratified recently.

                          Reply to the list for discussion, or to me directly simply to express your
                          interest.

                          Adam

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