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Re: [U-Zendo] Book Promo

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  • Lee
    ... I think it is pretty standard. Katagiri offered similar advice. The Dalai Lama goes a step further saying that we probably should leave the tradition
    Message 1 of 27 , May 8 7:38 AM
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      On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Pat Stacy <pstacy@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > It was such an odd thing for a Buddhist teacher to tell his student.

      I think it is pretty standard. Katagiri offered similar
      advice. The Dalai Lama goes a step further saying that we probably
      should leave the tradition we grew up in. That makes a lot of sense
      for most people, because we tend to keep those early beliefs. Our
      views on shunyata often verge on nihilism/materialism.

      What I would like to see is the various traditions
      re-establishing their mystical schools. As Huston Smith says,
      while orthodox people in the various tradtions see there tradtions as
      separate and superior to all other traditions, the mystics all tend to
      agree.

      That is the difference between direct spiritual experience and rote dogma.

      --
      李 Lee Love 大
      愛      鱗
      in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

      "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
      difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
      make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)
    • Lee
      ... sorry, this should read we probably shouldn t leave the tradition we grew up in. This is also related to Buddhism non-proselytizing nature. There has
      Message 2 of 27 , May 8 7:40 AM
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        2008/5/8 Lee <togeika@...>:

        > I think it is pretty standard. Katagiri offered similar
        > advice. The Dalai Lama goes a step further saying that we probably
        > should leave the tradition we grew up in.

        sorry, this should read "we probably shouldn't leave the tradition we
        grew up in."

        This is also related to Buddhism non-proselytizing nature.
        There has never been a Buddhist "Holy" War.
        --
        李 Lee Love 大
        愛      鱗
        in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

        "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
        difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
        make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)
      • LouAnne Jaeger
        Oops - I know you meant to say that the Dalai Lama says people ought to _stay_ with our birth-tradition... You ll have to read the book, but the specific
        Message 3 of 27 , May 8 7:49 AM
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          Oops - I know you meant to say that the Dalai Lama says people
          ought to _stay_ with our birth-tradition...

          You'll have to read the book, but the specific advice that he gives
          Pat on how to re-live her Catholic days is quite ingenious.



          2008/5/8 Lee <togeika@...>:

          On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Pat Stacy <pstacy@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > It was such an odd thing for a Buddhist teacher to tell his student.

          I think it is pretty standard. Katagiri offered similar
          advice. The Dalai Lama goes a step further saying that we probably
          should leave the tradition we grew up in. That makes a lot of sense
          for most people, because we tend to keep those early beliefs. Our
          views on shunyata often verge on nihilism/materialism.

          What I would like to see is the various traditions
          re-establishing their mystical schools. As Huston Smith says,
          while orthodox people in the various tradtions see there tradtions as
          separate and superior to all other traditions, the mystics all tend to
          agree.

          That is the difference between direct spiritual experience and rote dogma.


          --
          李 Lee Love 大
          愛      鱗
          in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

          "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
          difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
          make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)

        • Pat Stacy
          Lee, why do all your posts make a little box appear that asks me to install a language pack? Then, when anyone responds to you, that box appears again because
          Message 4 of 27 , May 8 8:06 AM
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            Lee, why do all your posts make a little box appear that asks me to install a language pack? Then, when anyone responds to you, that box appears again because your post is included in their response. Can you remove whatever little foreign language things you have put on your posts?
            Thank you,
            Pat
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Lee
            Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 7:38 AM
            Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Book Promo

            On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Pat Stacy <pstacy@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > It was such an odd thing for a Buddhist teacher to tell his student.

            I think it is pretty standard. Katagiri offered similar
            advice. The Dalai Lama goes a step further saying that we probably
            should leave the tradition we grew up in. That makes a lot of sense
            for most people, because we tend to keep those early beliefs. Our
            views on shunyata often verge on nihilism/materialis m.

            What I would like to see is the various traditions
            re-establishing their mystical schools. As Huston Smith says,
            while orthodox people in the various tradtions see there tradtions as
            separate and superior to all other traditions, the mystics all tend to
            agree.

            That is the difference between direct spiritual experience and rote dogma.

            --
            李 Lee Love 大
            愛      鱗
            in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots. blogspot. com/

            "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
            difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
            make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)

          • Lee
            ... You don t have the language pack installed. Pretty important on the internet and any international mailing list. -- Lee Love in Minneapolis
            Message 5 of 27 , May 8 8:17 AM
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              2008/5/8 Pat Stacy <pstacy@...>:
              >
              >
              > Lee, why do all your posts make a little box appear that asks me to install
              > a language pack?

              You don't have the language pack installed. Pretty important on the
              internet and any international mailing list.

              --
              Lee Love

              in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

              "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
              difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
              make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)
            • Weasel Tracks
              ... Most ancient traditions have worthwhile practice lore to them. Catholics and Protestants are rediscovering their contemplative traditions through Zen,
              Message 6 of 27 , May 8 1:32 PM
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                At 9:38 AM -0500 08/05/08, Lee wrote:
                >The Dalai Lama goes a step further saying that we probably
                >should [not] leave the tradition we grew up in. That makes a lot of sense
                >for most people, because we tend to keep those early beliefs.

                Most ancient traditions have worthwhile practice lore to them.
                Catholics and Protestants are rediscovering their contemplative
                traditions through Zen, among other spiritualities. It tickles me to
                see Catholics and Anglicans in contemplative prayer, with their hands
                in perfect zazen mudra!

                That said, I disagree with those that quote HHDL to say that people
                should stay in the religions of their birth. If a person is
                dissatisfied with their spiritual fare, they have a perfect right to
                look elsewhere. I notice Christian missionaries having no qualms
                about trying to spread Christianity.

                It was only after I was a Buddhist for a couple of decades that I
                realized the depth of my parents' religion, Eastern Orthodoxy.
                Nonetheless, I am grateful for being on the Buddha Marga, first and
                foremost. It clarifies everything else.

                And there are religions people *should* leave . . . "Prosperity
                Gospel," for example.

                ---Weasel Tracks
              • Scott Hutton
                That will probably be because Lee s emails are encoded with a Japanese language pack (right Lee???) You don t absolutely have to install it unless Lee sends an
                Message 7 of 27 , May 8 3:00 PM
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                  That will probably be because Lee's emails are encoded with a Japanese
                  language pack (right Lee???)
                  You don't absolutely have to install it unless Lee sends an email in
                  Japanese (and he'd better not...)

                  Scott
                  On Thu, 2008-05-08 at 10:17 -0500, Lee wrote:
                  > 2008/5/8 Pat Stacy <pstacy@...>:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Lee, why do all your posts make a little box appear that asks me to
                  > install
                  > > a language pack?
                  >
                  > You don't have the language pack installed. Pretty important on the
                  > internet and any international mailing list.
                  >
                  > --
                  > Lee Love
                  >
                  > in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/
                  >
                  > "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
                  > difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
                  > make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com
                • Lee
                  ... I think the Walmart approach to spirituality is doomed to failure. But you can use BUddhist practice as a model to get back to a practice orientation in
                  Message 8 of 27 , May 8 11:20 PM
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                    On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Weasel Tracks <weaseltrax@...> wrote:
                    > At 9:38 AM -0500 08/05/08, Lee wrote:

                    > Most ancient traditions have worthwhile practice lore to them.
                    > Catholics and Protestants are rediscovering their contemplative
                    > traditions through Zen, among other spiritualities. It tickles me to
                    > see Catholics and Anglicans in contemplative prayer, with their hands
                    > in perfect zazen mudra!

                    I think the Walmart approach to spirituality is doomed to
                    failure. But you can use BUddhist practice as a model to get back
                    to a practice orientation in any tradition.


                    >
                    > That said, I disagree with those that quote HHDL to say that people
                    > should stay in the religions of their birth.

                    That is what he said, explicitly. Buddhism is not an
                    evangelical/proselytizing tradition.

                    > And there are religions people *should* leave . . . "Prosperity
                    > Gospel," for example.

                    It would not enter my mind to tell Tina Turner to leave
                    Nichiren Shoshu. It isn't a Buddhist perspective to do so, but one
                    embedded in us from our Puritan roots.

                    --
                    李 Lee Love 大
                    愛      鱗
                    in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

                    "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
                    difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
                    make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)
                  • Weasel Tracks
                    ... I know. I disagree both with that bald statement and with people who use it to make a point that people should stay in their religion of birth, whether
                    Message 9 of 27 , May 9 7:06 AM
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                      At 1:20 AM -0500 08/05/09, Lee wrote:
                      >On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Weasel Tracks
                      ><weaseltrax@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > That said, I disagree with those that quote HHDL to say that people
                      > > should stay in the religions of their birth.
                      >
                      >That is what he said, explicitly.

                      I know. I disagree both with that bald statement and with people who
                      use it to make a point that people should stay in their religion of
                      birth, whether they agree with it or not, whether they find it
                      helpful or not.

                      Don't tell me HHDL is appalled at the spread of Vajrayana to the West
                      amongst Jews and Christians.

                      >Buddhism is not an
                      >evangelical/proselytizing tradition.

                      Yet there is outreach. There have been Buddhist missionaries, however
                      unpushy, since at least Ashoka's time.

                      However, one reason I liked the old Chicago temple where I first
                      learned Soto Zen, was that it was very non-missionary. The atitude
                      was that, if the priest and his disciples have anything of value,
                      perceptive people with compatible karma would come and learn. The
                      priest still spoke in various venues to spread the knowledge of
                      Buddhism in general and Zen in particular.

                      And so we place notices of zazen meetings and write articles for
                      local publications, to see if anyone might think they might benefit
                      from the Dharma. We would be stingy with our Dharma assets.

                      The attitudes of Christian proselytizers often blows my mind. They
                      seem to think that if they tell you you are going to hell loud
                      enough, they might scare you into salvation. Sometimes, with some
                      people, that works to enslave them to a Gospel of fear and a preacher
                      of domination.

                      Unless they belong to a religion for ignoble purposes, like politics,
                      love, or money, people believe that their religion is best, truest,
                      and the surest source of happiness. If they did not, they would look
                      for one they could believe that of. As Buddhists, we also believe
                      that Buddhism is the clearest approach to how things actually are. I
                      think that's actually true, but, of course, I would. Believing this,
                      should I not try to benefit whomever I can with exposure to the
                      Dharma?

                      At the Pioneer Valley Zendo on the Mohawk Trail is a hand-carved box
                      for donations. Above it is a sign that says, "Donations are never
                      requested, nor are they refused." The attitude to spreading Buddhism
                      should be like that.

                      > > And there are religions people *should* leave . . . "Prosperity
                      >> Gospel," for example.
                      >
                      > It would not enter my mind to tell Tina Turner to leave
                      >Nichiren Shoshu.

                      Why would it? Nichiren Buddhism is wholesome compared to "Prosperity
                      Gospel" or Scientology.

                      But if Tina asked you about zazen or how zennies understand reality,
                      wouldn't you tell her?

                      >It isn't a Buddhist perspective to do so, but one
                      >embedded in us from our Puritan roots.

                      I don't have Puritan roots. I was born in Europe of Orthodox Christian parents.

                      ---Weasel Tracks
                    • LouAnne Jaeger
                      Walmart meaning picking and choosing the parts that you like? I agree with you on that, Lee. I don t understand how people make it work for themselves, but
                      Message 10 of 27 , May 9 9:07 AM
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                        Walmart meaning picking and choosing the parts that you like?

                        I agree with you on that, Lee.  I don't understand how people make
                        it work for themselves, but some seem to.  I guess people just need
                        practice at different levels (although using the term "level" sounds
                        snooty and I don't mean to).

                        LA



                        2008/5/9 Lee <togeika@...>:

                        On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Weasel Tracks <weaseltrax@...> wrote:
                        > At 9:38 AM -0500 08/05/08, Lee wrote:

                        > Most ancient traditions have worthwhile practice lore to them.
                        > Catholics and Protestants are rediscovering their contemplative
                        > traditions through Zen, among other spiritualities. It tickles me to
                        > see Catholics and Anglicans in contemplative prayer, with their hands
                        > in perfect zazen mudra!

                        I think the Walmart approach to spirituality is doomed to
                        failure. But you can use BUddhist practice as a model to get back
                        to a practice orientation in any tradition.


                        >
                        > That said, I disagree with those that quote HHDL to say that people
                        > should stay in the religions of their birth.

                        That is what he said, explicitly. Buddhism is not an
                        evangelical/proselytizing tradition.


                        > And there are religions people *should* leave . . . "Prosperity
                        > Gospel," for example.

                        It would not enter my mind to tell Tina Turner to leave
                        Nichiren Shoshu. It isn't a Buddhist perspective to do so, but one
                        embedded in us from our Puritan roots.


                        --
                        李 Lee Love 大
                        愛      鱗
                        in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

                        "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
                        difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
                        make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)

                      • Lee
                        ... I understand. I am the same in response to dogmatism, parochialism and people who use it. Kudos to Pat s teacher for being so magnanimous (that is where
                        Message 11 of 27 , May 9 10:20 AM
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                          On Fri, May 9, 2008 at 9:06 AM, Weasel Tracks <weaseltrax@...> wrote:

                          > I know. I disagree both with that bald statement and with people who
                          > use it to make a point that people should stay in their religion of
                          > birth, whether they agree with it or not, whether they find it
                          > helpful or not.

                          I understand. I am the same in response to dogmatism, parochialism
                          and people who use it. Kudos to Pat's teacher for being so
                          magnanimous (that is where this all started: Buddhism's general lack
                          of proslytizing, etc. Any of it that has been implemented is a new
                          thing we have put on it.)

                          > Don't tell me HHDL is appalled at the spread of Vajrayana to the West
                          > amongst Jews and Christians.

                          You misunderstand what he says (and how people use it.)
                          Tibetan Buddhism has spread because of the diaspora. I am positive,
                          he'd rather have Tibetan culture not facing genocide rather than have
                          its people scattered across the world

                          Please listen to this. "One should remain with one's own
                          original faith." You cannot misunderstand what he explicitly says :

                          http://ourmedia.org/node/314045

                          But he also says it is important to learn about other's
                          traditions. These two attitudes are essential in order to stop
                          colonialism and fake wars between the 3 related major traditions.

                          The truth is at the core of all spiritual experience. It
                          is found beyond dogma and orthodox religion.

                          --
                          李 Lee Love 大
                          愛      鱗
                          in Minneapolis 0http:http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

                          "With Humans it's what's here (he points to his heart) that makes the
                          difference. If you don't have it in the heart, nothing you make will
                          make a difference." ~~Bernard Leach~~ (As told to Dean Schwarz)
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