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Re: [U-Zendo] Re: krishnamurti

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  • Lee
    ... When we don t choose selfless devotion, we default to self devotion. ... Humility? -- Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/ Tea
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 30, 2007
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      On Dec 31, 2007 12:40 PM, Pat Stacy <pstacy@...> wrote:

      > Lee, what do you consider a devotional intention?

      When we don't choose selfless devotion, we default to
      self devotion.

      > What was lacking in Krishamurti's practice?

      Humility?

      --
      Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
      http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

      "Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
      tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
      --Sen No Rikyu
      "Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi


      A number of people questioned whether Krishnamurti's attitudes were
      conditioned by privilege, as he was supported, even pampered, by
      devoted followers starting as far back as his "discovery" by the
      theosophists. Helen Nearing, who had known Krishnamurti in the 1920s,
      made such an assesment in an autobiographical volume (Loving and
      Leaving the Good Life, see "Other Biographies" section below). She
      also thought that he was at such an "elevated" level that he was
      incapable of forming normal personal relationships.[95] Others have
      accused him of personal hypocrisy in concern to certain of his
      teachings. Krishnamurti himself rarely responded to such criticism;
      his constant pronouncement that the "teacher is unimportant" did
      little to silence the critics.

      In her 1991 book, Lives in the Shadow with J. Krishnamurti (see "Other
      Biographies"), Radha Rajagopal Sloss, the daughter of Krishnamurti's
      associates, Rosalind and Desikacharya Rajagopal, wrote of
      Krishnamurti's relationship with her parents including the secret
      affair between Krishnamurti and Rosalind which lasted for many years.
      The public revelation was received with surprise and consternation by
      many individuals, and was also dealt with in a rebuttal volume of
      biography by Mary Lutyens (Krishnamurti and the Rajagopals, also see
      "Other Biographies").[96]

      Krishnamurti's once close relationship to the Rajagopals deteriorated
      to the point that Krishnamurti, in his later years, took Rajagopal to
      court in order to recover donated property and funds, publication
      rights for his works, manuscripts and personal correspondence being
      withheld by Rajagopal.[97] The resulting litigation and cross
      complaints continued for many years and though the verdict was
      eventually in Krishnamurti's favor he did not personally benefit as
      this was after his death in 1986.[98]

      David Bohm, after his falling out with Krishnamurti, criticised
      certain aspects of "the teaching" on philosophical, methodological,
      and psychological grounds. He also criticised what he described as
      Krishnamurti's occasional "verbal manipulations" in order to deflect
      challenges. Eventually, he questioned some of the reasoning concerning
      the nature of thought and self, although he never lost his belief that
      "Krishnamurti was on to something."[99]

      Perhaps the harshest critic of Jiddu Krishnamurti, the way he
      operated, and his choice of, and elaborations on, subjects such as
      "choiceless awareness" and "the art of listening", was U. G.
      Krishnamurti.

      Uppaluri Gopala Krishnamurti Meetings with J.Krishnamurti

      From 1947 to 1953, U.G. regularly attended talks given by Jiddu
      Krishnamurti in Madras, finally beginning a direct dialogue with J.
      Krishnamurti in 1953. U.G. describes one of their meetings as follows:

      "We really didn't get along well. Whenever we met we locked horns
      over some issue or other. For instance, I never shared his concern for
      the world, or his belief that his teaching would profoundly affect the
      thoughts and actions of mankind for the next five hundred years--a
      fantasy of the Theosophist occultists. In one of our meetings I told
      Krishnamurti, 'I am not called upon to save the world.' He asked, 'The
      house is on fire--what will you do?' 'Pour more gasoline on it and
      maybe something will rise from the ashes,' I remarked. Krishnamurti
      said, 'You are absolutely impossible.' Then I said, 'You are still a
      Theosophist. You have never freed yourself from the World Teacher
      role. There is a story in the Avadhuta Gita which talks of the avadhut
      who stopped at a wayside inn and was asked by the innkeeper, "What is
      your teaching?" He replied, "There is no teacher, no teaching and no
      one taught." And then he walked away. You too repeat these phrases and
      yet you are so concerned with preserving your teaching for posterity
      in its pristine purity.'"[8]

      Their dialogues continued, but finally came to a halt. U.G. describes
      the final discussion as follows:

      "Again I asked him if there was anything behind the abstractions
      he was throwing at me, 'Come clean for once.' Then he said with great
      force, 'You have no way of knowing it!' Then I said, 'If I have no way
      of knowing it and you have no way of communicating it, what the hell
      have we been doing! I have wasted seven years listening to you. You
      can give your precious time to somebody else. I am leaving for New
      York tomorrow.'"[8]
    • Weasel Tracks
      At 1:52 PM +0900 07/12/31, Lee wrote: ... When we don t choose selfless devotion, we default to self devotion. WT: I can see some problems with this assertion
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 31, 2007
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        At 1:52 PM +0900 07/12/31, Lee wrote:
        On Dec 31, 2007 12:40 PM, Pat Stacy <pstacy@...> wrote:

        > Lee, what do you consider a devotional intention?

        When we don't choose selfless devotion, we default to
        self devotion.


        WT:
        I can see some problems with this assertion as it stands. It would help if you defined "devotion". I think most of us relate it to establishing a relational cultus with some superhuman or superiorly human entity. Although I would concede that this is a proven way to cultivate selflessness, I would not accept that it is the only way, nor would I grant that it can't be subverted to replace one form of ego with another.


        > What was lacking in Krishamurti's practice?

        Humility?


        WT:
        I don't know enough about him to have an opinion. I do know that many people find his writings helpful. The few extracts I've read are interesting and seem consonant with an enlightened mind. His personal contradictions or failings would not diminish any intrinsic value to his writings, but perhaps add a useful caveat to dispel any inclination to idealize and idolize.

        As for David Bohm, a previous post seemed to imply that he was on the scientific fringe, practically a crank. His work is actually quite integral to current quantum theories. It's some of his philosophical speculations from his work in physics and math that are disputed amongst scientists and others.

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Bohm>

        One cause for disputation, so far as I understand it, is Bohm's theorizing of an Implicate Order. I believe his ideas are ultimately derived from the fact that the physical universe seems subject to laws, yet these laws are not "within" the universe. The page cited below seems to have a lot of material for people with an interest in the scientific and philosophical aspects of consciousness and modern physics.

        <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicate_and_Explicate_Order>

        May all beings have a Happy New Year!

        ---Weasel Tracks
      • Richard Horvitz
        Wow. From what little I know Krishnamurti seemed a most remarkable and wise person. Even the Dalai Lama seemed to think highly of him. I am shocked that my
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 1, 2008
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          Wow. From what little I know Krishnamurti seemed a most remarkable and
          wise person. Even the Dalai Lama seemed to think highly of him. I am
          shocked that my question here incited an attack on his character.
          Everybody has their faults - why start the discussion there? Is he in a
          class with Hitler?

          David Bohm was a leading quantum physicist and collaborator with Einstein.
          They were both skeptical of the so called "Copenhagen interpretation" of
          quantum mechanics, and both (I believe) thought physical laws should be of
          a deterministic nature. He spoke against the solely mechanistic view of
          physics, not rejecting it outright but considering it insufficient by
          itself.
        • Lee
          ... Got any quotes? H.H. thinks highly of everybody. (8^) It is an amusing quote from Krishnamurti: Krishnamurti died 17 February 1986. Ten days before he
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 2, 2008
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            On Jan 2, 2008 1:10 PM, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@...> wrote:

            > Even the Dalai Lama seemed to think highly of him.

            Got any quotes? H.H. thinks highly of everybody. (8^)

            It is an amusing quote from Krishnamurti:

            Krishnamurti died 17 February 1986. Ten days before he passed on, he said,

            "For seventy years that super energy --- no --- that immense
            energy, immense intelligence, has been using this body. I don't think
            people realize what tremendous energy and intelligence went through
            this body...You won't find another body like this, or that supreme
            intelligence operating in a body for many hundred years. You won't see
            it again. When he goes, it goes."

            > David Bohm was a leading quantum physicist and collaborator with Einstein.

            I have deep respect for Bohm.
            --
            Lee in Mashiko, Tochigi Japan
            http://mashikopots.blogspot.com/

            "Tea is nought but this: first you heat the water, then you make the
            tea. Then you drink it properly. That is all you need to know."
            --Sen No Rikyu
            "Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
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