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Re: anger(CHAT)

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  • Scott
    Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked... Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp. when memories of the abuse is
    Message 1 of 24 , Nov 8 2:45 PM
      Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
      Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
      when memories of the abuse is triggered.
      Scott

      --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi, Scott -
      >
      > Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
      >
      > Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
      > anger?
      >
      > Ralph
      > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
      > Ralph Palmer
      > Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
      > USA
      > rpalmer@...
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf
      > Of Scott
      > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
      > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
      >
      > Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
      to
      > comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
      >
      > Scott
      > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
      anger,
      > > > > I don't know.
      > > >
      > > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
      > can't
      > > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
      > is
      > > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
      > > >
      > >
      > > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
      > response.
      > > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
      > so also.
      > > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
      > > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
      > of
      > > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
      > that it is
      > > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
      > that the
      > > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
      > think about
      > > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
      > doing it
      > > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
      > your
      > > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
      > return
      > > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
      > behind
      > > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
      > step is
      > > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
      > end
      > > anywhere.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
    • Jakub Jaroszewski
      Does talking about anger cause a future anger? ... From: Scott To: Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006
      Message 2 of 24 , Nov 9 3:06 AM
        Does talking about anger cause a future anger?

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
        To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
        Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


        > Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
        > Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
        > when memories of the abuse is triggered.
        > Scott
        >
        > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
        >>
        >> Hi, Scott -
        >>
        >> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
        >>
        >> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
        >> anger?
        >>
        >> Ralph
        >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
        >> Ralph Palmer
        >> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
        >> USA
        >> rpalmer@...
        >>
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
        > Behalf
        >> Of Scott
        >> Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
        >> To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
        >>
        >> Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
        > to
        >> comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
        >>
        >> Scott
        >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
        >> >
        >> > >
        >> > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
        >> > >
        >> > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
        > anger,
        >> > > > I don't know.
        >> > >
        >> > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
        >> can't
        >> > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
        >> is
        >> > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
        >> > >
        >> >
        >> > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
        >> response.
        >> > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
        >> so also.
        >> > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
        >> > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
        >> of
        >> > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
        >> that it is
        >> > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
        >> that the
        >> > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
        >> think about
        >> > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
        >> doing it
        >> > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
        >> your
        >> > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
        >> return
        >> > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
        >> behind
        >> > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
        >> step is
        >> > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
        >> end
        >> > anywhere.
        >> >
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Palmer, Ralph
        Scott - Causal was not a typo. I was asking, not very clearly, if you were speaking of anger causing trauma or trauma causing anger. It sounds like trauma
        Message 3 of 24 , Nov 9 4:54 AM
          Scott -

          "Causal" was not a typo. I was asking, not very clearly, if you were
          speaking of anger causing trauma or trauma causing anger. It sounds like
          trauma causing anger. My first reaction was that I didn't remember much
          trauma, or at least that any anger seemed to be directed toward
          inanimate objects or myself; but I think I will look more closely.

          Ralph

          -----Original Message-----
          From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Scott
          Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 5:46 PM
          To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

          Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
          Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
          when memories of the abuse is triggered.
          Scott

          --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, Scott -
          >
          > Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
          >
          > Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
          > anger?
          >
          > Ralph
          > +++++++++++++++++++++++++
          > Ralph Palmer
          > Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
          > USA
          > rpalmer@...
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On
          Behalf
          > Of Scott
          > Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:32 AM
          > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
          >
          > Hi, Ive been away for a while. On this subject, would anyone like
          to
          > comment/chat on the link between anger and trauma?
          >
          > Scott
          > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, Richard Horvitz <rhorvitz@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Walt Taylor wrote:
          > >
          > > >
          > > > On Aug 13, 2006, at 7:19 PM, Richard Horvitz wrote:
          > > >
          > > > > Whether it would help or not to have a prohibition against
          anger,
          > > > > I don't know.
          > > >
          > > > Maybe we're confusing anger with its unfettered expression. You
          > can't
          > > > ban anger any more than you can sexual desire. What you can do
          > is
          > > > exercise control over its expression, which we do all the time.
          > > >
          > >
          > > I don't think this is totally true. Anger is largely a learned
          > response.
          > > If you live with people who get angry easily you are likely to do
          > so also.
          > > Won't being mindful of how anger arises make it less likely?
          > > From another point of view, an incident of anger is a long chain
          > of
          > > events. First you see someone doing something, then you think
          > that it is
          > > contrary to your interest, or offensive to you, then you think
          > that the
          > > person is doing it with the intention of harming you, then you
          > think about
          > > how you have objected to this behavior in the past yet they are
          > doing it
          > > again, then your ears turn a bit red, then you swear a bit under
          > your
          > > breath, then you start thinking about how you might hurt them in
          > return
          > > (justice, if you will), then you pick up the knife and creep up
          > behind
          > > them, and finally you plunge it into their back. So this last
          > step is
          > > clearly unfettered expression, but where is the cut off? It can
          > end
          > > anywhere.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >






          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Palmer, Ralph
          I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about enlightenment causes a future enlightenment. Ralph ... From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
          Message 4 of 24 , Nov 9 5:37 AM
            I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
            enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.

            Ralph

            -----Original Message-----
            From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Jakub Jaroszewski
            Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
            To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)

            Does talking about anger cause a future anger?

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
            To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
            Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


            > Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
            > Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
            > when memories of the abuse is triggered.
            > Scott
            >
            > --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Hi, Scott -
            >>
            >> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
            >>
            >> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
            >> anger?
            >>
            >> Ralph
            >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
            >> Ralph Palmer
            >> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
            >> USA
            >> rpalmer@...
            >>
            >>
          • Jakub Jaroszewski
            So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future enlightment? Talking about something is making it stronger in your life. When you think about
            Message 5 of 24 , Nov 9 6:08 AM
              So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future enlightment?
              Talking about something is making it stronger in your life.
              When you think about something then you finalely begin to talk about it; and
              when you talk about it then you finaly begin to do it. Aren't you?
              So, I suppose, when you talk and think about anger a lot, then you are in a
              danger of making yourself an angry man.
              Sometimes feelings are so painful that it is very difficult to not get into
              them, but maintaining them is making them firm. The mind get used to them,
              so they become you yourself.
              Doesn't it goes this way? (I suppose :))

              kuba

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...>
              To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:37 PM
              Subject: RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)


              >I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
              > enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.
              >
              > Ralph
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              > Of Jakub Jaroszewski
              > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
              > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
              >
              > Does talking about anger cause a future anger?
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
              > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
              > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
              >
              >
              >> Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
              >> Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems esp.
              >> when memories of the abuse is triggered.
              >> Scott
              >>
              >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...> wrote:
              >>>
              >>> Hi, Scott -
              >>>
              >>> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
              >>>
              >>> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or trauma -->
              >>> anger?
              >>>
              >>> Ralph
              >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
              >>> Ralph Palmer
              >>> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
              >>> USA
              >>> rpalmer@...
              >>>
              >>>
              >
            • Scott
              Well, anger seems to offer something (at least initially) to protect from further trauma. Maybe it promises to keep future traumatisers at a distance.
              Message 6 of 24 , Nov 9 2:19 PM
                Well, anger seems to offer something (at least initially) to protect
                from further trauma. Maybe it promises to keep future traumatisers
                at a distance. Unfortunately, it also does that to any helpers that
                might come our way.
                It also morphs into other more covert things (eg: social withdrawl)
                I'm not sure enlightenment morphs into anything but enlightenment.

                Scott

                --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Jakub Jaroszewski" <jakubjar@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > So does talking about enlightenment is a cause of a future
                enlightment?
                > Talking about something is making it stronger in your life.
                > When you think about something then you finalely begin to talk
                about it; and
                > when you talk about it then you finaly begin to do it. Aren't you?
                > So, I suppose, when you talk and think about anger a lot, then you
                are in a
                > danger of making yourself an angry man.
                > Sometimes feelings are so painful that it is very difficult to not
                get into
                > them, but maintaining them is making them firm. The mind get used
                to them,
                > so they become you yourself.
                > Doesn't it goes this way? (I suppose :))
                >
                > kuba
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@...>
                > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 2:37 PM
                > Subject: RE: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                >
                >
                > >I would suppose about as much and not more than talking about
                > > enlightenment causes a future enlightenment.
                > >
                > > Ralph
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com]
                On Behalf
                > > Of Jakub Jaroszewski
                > > Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:07 AM
                > > To: U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                > >
                > > Does talking about anger cause a future anger?
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "Scott" <scott_1971_h@...>
                > > To: <U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:45 PM
                > > Subject: [U-Zendo] Re: anger(CHAT)
                > >
                > >
                > >> Yes well casual or not, the two seem to be linked...
                > >> Lots of people who have been through trauma have anger problems
                esp.
                > >> when memories of the abuse is triggered.
                > >> Scott
                > >>
                > >> --- In U-Zendo@yahoogroups.com, "Palmer, Ralph" <rpalmer@>
                wrote:
                > >>>
                > >>> Hi, Scott -
                > >>>
                > >>> Seems like almost everyone has been away for a while.
                > >>>
                > >>> Are you speaking of a causal link? Anger --> trauma? Or
                trauma -->
                > >>> anger?
                > >>>
                > >>> Ralph
                > >>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                > >>> Ralph Palmer
                > >>> Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                > >>> USA
                > >>> rpalmer@
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >
                >
              • Richard Horvitz
                This group has dwindled so much that there aren t enough people to sustain a discussion anymore. I think that much of the reason is that we have become
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 7, 2007
                  This group has dwindled so much that there aren't enough people to sustain
                  a discussion anymore. I think that much of the reason is that we have
                  become hidden. If you type "uzendo" into google, you will not find this
                  site (I think you have to hyphenate it, "u-zendo"). Probably people who
                  knew this group when it was at mail.win.org assume that it no longer
                  exists. Would it be a good thing for us to come out of hiding somehow?
                • Palmer, Ralph
                  Greetings - I m sort of stuck. When I try to observe the mental process and experience the present bodily sensations , I find myself adding a layer, and I
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 8, 2007
                    Greetings -

                    I'm sort of stuck. When I try to "observe the mental process and
                    experience the present bodily sensations", I find myself adding a layer,
                    and I can't figure out a way around it. That is, when I observe the
                    mental process, I find I process it before I'm conscious of it - I make
                    a "picture" by the time I'm observing. And when I try to experience the
                    present bodily sensations, I find I do it through images of the
                    sensations. Is this a problem? If so, is there a way through?

                    Ralph
                    +++++++++++++++++++++++++
                    Ralph Palmer
                    Keene, NH, and Greenfield, MA
                    USA
                    rpalmer@...
                  • Lee Love
                    Hi Ralph, This is a really wonderful insight. You have discovered what most people never know: We live in Plato s cave, and we mistake the shadows of our
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 8, 2007
                      Hi Ralph,

                      This is a really wonderful insight. You have discovered what
                      most people never know: We live in Plato's cave, and we mistake the
                      shadows of our lives for our lives as they are lived. Everybody forms
                      a "picture" of their actual experience. Because you know the
                      difference between the experience and the "picture" of the experience,
                      it is obvious that you know the experience before the "picture."

                      The important thing to remember, is that the "picture" is just a
                      picture. Let it go and be ready for the next experience.

                      --
                      Lee in Mashiko, Japan
                      Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
                      http://potters.blogspot.com/

                      "To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of arts." -
                      Henry David Thoreau

                      "Let the beauty we love be what we do." - Rumi
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